Remembering Shiva

Bhai,

Thanks for your experiences for me it is about making things easy.

First I remember I am a point of light.

Secondly I remember Shiv in the Shav.

This is to be easy Raja Yoga.

What is the point of Shiv being in Pramadham?

Then why would he have come here in the first place if there is benefit in this?

What is the benefit of Shiv being there?

How do you identify Shiva differently from other points of light?

atma

Because God does not interfere in our drama, he only gives the clues for us to understand whatever we want to understand, he cannot possibly say, that ShivBaba is played in the Chariot of Virendra Dev Dixit. Whether we understand it to be this way or not, it all depends on our part. Before I relate my experience, I would like to insist on the fact that in both BK and PBK world, there are all type of souls, from the different religions of the Kalpa, being pure, impure, loving the Father or defaming him, being humble or with a lot of ego ... I am a bit concerned when a PBK starts being patronizing and gives too much Advanced Knowledge. This is a place to share experience mostly, and to make a bridge between everyone of us. So the best quality is to be simple and human, no one is a flawless deity yet.

My first aim when I write in this website is that one day, for someone to think, yes this is something that makes sense to me, I would like to know further, is this Virendra Dev Dixit really playing the role of Shiva Baba?

This realisation cannot only come through the intellect, the heart is involved. When I heard about the Father, I was presented this new Gyan in the most clumsy way, by a very sweet soul, but so excited about it that she drowned me with The Knowledge she new, and her own deductions (manmat). Just before I was going through a stage of despair, I already shared my story in another post. It was then like a gentle breeze of peace that came over me, despite the crudeness of what I was told, as a BK, without having any idea of the existence of the Advance Party before.

Before even to meet Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit), I felt the difference in my attitude in the center. As before I was shy, feeling easily fearful to speak to Seniors, and eager to please and be liked, I suddenly felt so strong and happy, and I did not care to be defamed and chucked out. That for me was a solid proof of his presence, more tangible. I started reading the clarifications in ShivBaba.ca (by the way, they have been amended, so you get, the filter of the translation and also a second filter of the souls who has written them down, lots of manmat). It was like the words on the paper were jumping on me with power, I felt the power and the soul consciousness, even if I did not understand much at that time.

Now, when I meditate, if I said that it is bliss every time, I would lie. It is at the same time harder and more powerful. Baba is purifying me when I connect with him. This is like a bucket of muddy water (me) with a lot of mud at the bottom. When I want to clean it by pouring clean pure water in it, the mud, before running out of the bucket, will have to appear at the surface. All the old sanskars and impurities are bound to pop up on the surface/consciousness of my mind. If it feels more intense that in BK time, it is because it is much more efficient. I have definitely seen so many changes in me. Baba keeps saying remember me, and explaining over and over how we have to remember him, this is for a good reason, he is the teacher, but also the purifier.

If we remember the body, we remember a corpse (shav), whether it is Lekhraj Kirpalani or Virendra Dev Dixit, we have to remember Shiv in the Chariot, Shiva Baba. Now for me, the living Chariot has to be Virendra Dev Dixit. In PBK also there are a lot who become devotional and are attached to the body of Virendra Dev Dixit, and that is not going to purify them. When we remember the point of light, as others have mentioned, it is incomplete. I used to love doing this sort of meditation, and also seeing myself in conversation with Lekhraj Kirpalani, both types for me are incomplete. As Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) says (if you want the extract I can find it somewhere): Remembering Shiv as a point will give a subtle and sharp intellect and this is the speciality of the westerners, but the heart is missing.

Baba has to come down and stay with us until the end, I have been with him, stayed (a bit ) with him, eaten with him, spoken with him. That is what gives me this love for him, what I remember also in my remembrance time. Meditation can be called Yaad, remembrance. As children, were we asked to remember our laukik Father? It is the same now, he is part of my life. When I remember something about knowledge, what I experienced with him, when I talk about him, I can feel this love in my heart, it is as simple as that, My aim would be to constantly remember him and his world, to be able to detach from the old world completely, not to be influenced any more by it. I can observe how I feel when my mind has been wandering in worldly matter, and how my mind is dwelling on Gyan and Baba, the most obvious difference is heaviness and lightness, boredom and serenity or happiness.

I felt a lot of love for Shiva Baba in Lekhraj Kirpalani, but now it is more, it is more concrete. When I write to him, or suddenly out of the blue, I feel his presence, and it is like a gift, a wave that erase all my negativity, something strong and beautiful. Because we can send our chart our worries, it is a concrete relationship.

What is new from the time of the BK, is the excitement of understanding new point of knowledge. I remember having this excitement at the beginning, when the Sakar Murlis were new to me, but then, because the questions were generally not answered, because we were not encouraged to study the Murli, that faded away. Now this is the contrary, churning is part of the purification process, and it is a source of real enjoyment. the mind becomes subtle when we churn, and when we will have understood the Gyan completely, we will be able to bring the mind back to the essence, the point.

Dear Brother

It’s not a matter of littleness. Ask the Murli department who interferes in the Murli. However here it is pretty clear. Occupation, name, fame, country and time are not there in the Soul World. Even if the soul is in the body in high stage, the body will have these. This is the speciality of knowledge. The difference is to other form of rememberance that is like in the Bhakti – whithout clear idea. Where is Paramdha – somewhere – there, very far away. There is is no time, there no movement. Only once he comes in the body, and this special knowledge of who is He can be known.

Wherever the Supreme Soul enters this body is named Brahma. This Supreme Soul not only gives his own introduction through the body he enters, but also gives the introduction of the soul he enters in and the introduction to the main unlimited actors of the world drama stage. As we know from the muri His name Shiva is based on the soul. The Murli are called the sweet versions of the Supreme Soul throgh Brahma Baba. Whichever body he [Shiv] enters, the name is changed. [the soul of Krishna – Brahma, the soul of Ram – Shankar - but the body of Ram is also a Brahma]. In the beginnig of the Yagya, although, not recognised, it was his title of Prajapita that Brahma inherited. But Prajapita is a different soul to Brahma Baba. Pajapita Brahma is special soul amongst all Brahmas.

In the Murli, it is said “this one” and “that one.” The difference in these only Shiv knows, but we also know when he comes again in the body of Ram to teach. These versions are not sweet anymore, but the speaker is the same, but the body is different, so it can also be called Murli. He reveals the deep secrets in it. He makes the children follow his orders in practical. When we ourselves can remember and insist on what he have said and it is considered a virtue, why not he emphasise on his own words. For us it may be something new that we did not know, that he'll leave Brahma and enter another permanent Chariot, because we did not understand what he has said, but for him it is probably – I have said so, so I do. difference of BK and PBK should no more be observed. When he has said we should be PBK it means we should be PBK. We shoul not make difference to the Chariot.

Many say why has it not been said clearly, that He'll leave and enter new Chariot. But it appears He has said clearly enough in many ways for those who like to believe, for those who don’t clear mention is not enough. Then they say so when he enters in Gulzad Dadi, why does not he say, and the answer is if it was him, he would probably say.

Dear howiemac

How can one study the Murli and have these ideas about god – that all souls together – this is God? What makes one disbelieve in the Murli?

Dear sparkal

Is it a matter of making up a method. Method is one and it is very easy. We make it difficult by creation our own points.

Dear Brother ex-l

OK, anyone can pick up whatever one wishes and prove whatever one wishes, will he be able to? Can you pick up the Murli and prove Shiv comes in George Bush. Maybe it would be much easier when he addresses the UN, he can say”I’m Shiva” this way many VIP will receive the message.

It’s a Murli published by the BK. I don’t have the full one. But why do you ask you don’t believe in any. You call it channel. Baba never has used such expression. It’s not only enough to prove the lie a lie but additionally the truth has to be spoken pointed.

The one who asks someone to do something should first do himself. I'll only share my experiences if you too do. OK, I will do first. Few days ago ... OK ... three weeks, I was woken up by supersensual happiness. Otherwise, when I sit in the morning, I do because at that time one does not have to work anything, so when i sit it is as if the body is totally dead and the soul is there at the forehead. This happened few months ago. It seems that this spiritual effort does not include anything physical at all. On the level of the mind we communicate with someone or another all the time. So in the mind when we go above all of these, we should have the desire to go above all of these, to leave them, then ... one completely dies, there is no happiness, nor sorrow, complete disinterest, the body is dead. Then the feeling is that the only essencee in being in this world is to meet the Supreme Soul.

I use my morning time to make 5 points fit into the intellect. 3 – you know 4 – disinterest 5 – instrument. For the “I’m the soul a point of light” point takes 40 min to 1:40 h to fit. Then the rest comes easy[/list]

A point of light is a point of light how does one distinguish Shiva from another point of light?

Hi. This is one of the PBK's "neologisms". One of their yuktis or "new doctrines". Of course one can tell the difference! Actually, it is as incorrect as saying, "how can a blind person tell two people apart if they cannot see?", or "how can you tune into a radio station if you cannot see the different airwaves?". It is doubly incorrect to use because you also say, although I do not agree, that one cannot see a point of light anyway.

The easy proof of this would be to try. Try having Yoga with another "point of light", a soul that you know is not Supreme. And see what the effect is. Pick one of whom you do not know what their physical body is like or even if they have one. A dead Grandmother or an avatar soul. See how it feels. The whole purpose of the initiation into Raja Yoga is to introduce you to Shiva via the transmission of his energy so that you can find and relate to Him directly. It is that direct relationship that makes Raja Yoga different. In the Murlis, Baba talks about being the magnet that pulls the needles upwards. Other souls will also pull, and Brahmin souls are pulled by other souls, but not in the same way.

This model we discuss also excludes the meeting in the Subtle Regions.

I use my morning time to make 5 points fit into the intellect. 3 – you know 4 – disinterest 5 – instrument. For the “I’m the soul a point of light” point takes 40 min to 1:40 h to fit. Then the rest comes easy

Andrey, channel is a generic term like Yoga, e.g. you can have Yoga with your dog or Yoga with your God. Shiva is (allegedly) channelled through Lekhraj Kirpalani ... and possibly others. Gulzar is most likely channelling Lekhraj Kirpalani, I think we agree on that. I don't know what the Indian word is for this. What is the specific word given to what the religous founders do in the Copper Age? I suppose that might be called channelling to but, according to the theory taught by the BKs, the founder souls come down to Earth and "possess" the Chariot souls in order to start their religion. They do not come and go. Personally, having known and seen other channellers, I see possession, channelling and what Shiva is doing as one and the same thing. the only difference being the quality and nature of the non-incarnate soul that it involved.

To the best of my knowledge, all "Shiva" says is, "I come in this body". What is this "coming" called? It is better in English to call it 'channelling' rather than 'coming'. For the record, I see that the BKs have used the word "channelling" in their teacher training manual which is up in the Encyclopedia area but this was written after I left them. And you are right, I have given up "believing". If I have a religion now, it is the religion of separation of knowledge and belief. When I was a BK, although I had experiences, I was encouraged to believe a whole load of stuff that I could never know.

In truth, relying on belief has to be another form of Bhakti. Quoting individual sentences out of abstract Murlis has to be dangerous. Jehovah Witness/Bible Basher territory. So when you are having this experience of "the body being dead", can you feel the arms and legs? Do you feel the weight of it? Are you weightless? Do you feel your energy rising up and away from the body? What mental practise are you doing at the time to achieve this?

Remembering the picture of Virendra Dev Dixit in your mind or something else?

Dear Brother ex-l,

Meeting in the Suble region is possible on the level of thinking. But you speak for your own experiences too!!! Don't just tell other what should they speak. For me it feels good. Is this OK?

The aim is perfection. Point of light cannot be called perfection because both good and bad qualities are there inside. So whilst in the body we should have the point like stage, that is viceless and egoless.

Of course one can tell the difference! Actually, it is as incorrect as saying, "how can a blind person tell two people apart if they cannot see?"

ex-l has some very good points. How do you know which soul is Shiva? ... through the intellect and mind or third eye, not the physical eyes. Why remember the Soul World? ... because it takes our consciousness away from the physical world and physical consciousness.

Meeting in the Suble region is possible on the level of thinking.

The definition of Subtle Regions keeps changing according to Murli, sometimes it is there sometimes it is not. It was told that the Subtle Regions were not there to stop BKs from keep going into trance and to get them to concentrate on Gyan and rememberance.

For every point that can be shown as proof in Murli an opposite point can be found to disprove it.

OK, if it is said Shiva gives hints, then what exactly does this mean. Yes, I can see he will give hints because he would not tell children face to face they are bad. But the meaning of giving hints can be taken in the form of 'Murli points only vaguely fitting' and therefore can be said as hints that only you intelligent children can pick up on; appealing to the ego. Even so, if that were correct, which Murli points are real and which are hints ...

ShivaBaba says "I am the solicitor of solicitors", meaning I come to make all things easy.

Dear Brother ex-l,

You prove everything the opposite way. Keeping a picture of the mind now appears to be corrupt. It is not a form of worship that you put a picture to adore. It is picture in the mind of the complete form. We can also be incomplete but we can see each other in one another's complete form.

How can one describe his feeling? The more one speaks of his love it goes away. But in our life - how do we operate? How do we hold one thought, when do we hold one thought? When we are firm at something, when we like something very much, we keep it again and again. It is said in the Avyakt Murli that it should emerge from the heart. My Baba. It is a relationship. It should emerge this is the one, this is the one.

And Brother, a point of light cannot be seen. Nor be felt, they don't fly like this in the air, it is very, very subtle. Personality is contained in the soul but it is not expressed when it is not in the body. One can feel the difference when this personality is expressed through a body.

We should be away from the corporeal world whilst in it. Like when we are at work but like to be at home we have yaadh. There is a part of a song "Oh I remember the Subtle Regions very much" Remembrance is a form of love. Whether you agree or disagree. I understand you disagree with the Murli but for us this is Shrimat. So why should you disagree, that's why, why do you talk about it at all? Leave it altogether and forget it. I suppose I won't manage persuade you neither would you, so I suggest signing a peace treaty as Mother Aimee has suggested. I won't try to prove you anything.

Dear Brother John,

It is absurd. He can only be proved to be what He has spoken. If one does not believe in what He has spoken it means He does not believe in him. Its a cycle. The one who is in this cycle cannot escape. The one who is out of it cannot enter. Another absurdity. The one who can shake the mind like this can also make it stable.

Meeting in the Suble region is possible on the level of thinking.

Actually, I am sorry to say but in my opinion, you are wrong here. On the basis of my experiences [as you ask], the experiences of many others ... and how do you account for the experiences of the trance messengers? My fear is that much of what you are arguing is based on your own personal theory rather than experience. I have seen the corporeal world fading away and a world of white light appearing around me. What was the experience? I do not know. All I can say is that I saw/experienced it and so did the other I was with. Often they would have visionary experiences during this time, e.g. face of gods, Brahma etc. I understand that this is one of the things the Subtle Regions are for and this is how the trance messengers are shown things. I ask for other's experiences.

I also state that you are wrong with regards to seeing points of light; firstly, on my own experience, on the experience of others [related on this forum, the previous and in person] and also as per the history of the Yagya ... re; Dada Lekhraj seeing the spark leaving the dying old man. I agreed that the latter may have been via divine vision but the former are living conscious experiences. Souls report not just seeing sparks of light but variances in sparks of light, e.g. color, sensation, movement etc. both here in the coporeal and in Paramdham. If you personally have not experienced this, then you must say. But if you have not seen these, then you cannot make absolute statements about Truth or other. As regards vision in Paramdham, I could accept that this might be experiences in Shankar Puri ... or it could be as it is written. I personally have not had any Paramdham experiences but many others have related them in person and whilst teaching the course. I ask for others, better yogis than I, experiences again.

This again underlines your biggest weakness to me ... that of living away from other Brahmin souls and missing out on sharing their knowledge and experience. Your knowledge is good but you are relying too much on theory alone.

a) You prove everything the opposite way. Keeping a picture of the mind now appears to be corrupt ...

b) The more one speaks of his love it goes away ...

c) I understand you disagree with the Murli but for us this is Shrimat. So why should you disagree, that's why, why do you talk about it at all? Leave it altogether and forget it.

a) I illustrate that "Advanced Knowledge" cannot have things both ways. If PBKs apply Advanced understanding to the BKs then it has to apply Advanced understanding to themselves also. It makes complete sense to me that a "mental picture" of Truth, Baba, Veerendra Dev Dixit or anything will get in the way or a real experience of Truth, Baba, Veerendra Dev Dixit. This is a very deep and subtle point. By Bhakti, self-hypnosis and emotional craving [Hatha Yoga], we can experience all sort of things including visions ... but we need to give those up and move on towards reality.

b) Murli points says the opposite, sharing strengthens it and brings others closer.

c) When did I ever say I disagree? Show me the quote.

This might be Truth and God and so does it not warrant extreme care and attention?

The only thing we can be sure about is that whatever it is, no one really knows for sure what is going on, human beings are mixing it up or corrupting it [BKWSU] and using it to control others. And I am very unhappy at that![/quote]. All I have are unanswered questions mostly and a sense of caution. Individuals are pushed into Knowledge without knowing what they are getting into. When questions arise they are crushed down with no regard. The don't want us to question. Why?

Back to the topic though ... where, HOW AND WHY does it say, "Remember the body of Virendra Dev Dixit?" and what is the difference in the experience of that? I agree the BKs, especially the older Seniors, are remembering the body of BB and some even argue and teach that is the right way to do Raja Yoga. Amazing.

I am not sure where this thread is going or exactly what is going on. I don't actually want to take part but since it is now page 5....

One of the missing links here, if you can call it that, is no-one here knows how it felt like to meditate and have Yoga and be aware of Shiv and the point of light via Lekhraj Kirpalani's body. Not even Virendra Dev Dixit. Which means that if BKs feel that BapDada of post-69 comprises of Shiv and Brahma Baba via the Chariot of Dadi Gulzar, then their current understanding and experience can be akin to their previous experience when Shiv came via the Chariot of Brahma Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani) pre 1969. i.e they were equally happy before and after 1969. Though we, here, are only guessing it is plain Bhakti. How many of you here have spoken to senior, I mean at least pre-69, BKs or Dadis of their encounters with BB (Lekhraj Kirpalani), and how they have grown up with Yoga and the Yagya from childhood. Thus the date 1976 is a milestone since some BKs left, but we haven't got the full real reasons why some did and some did not, and the years in between 1970 to 1976 also remain a mystery. I know PBKs have their own story and produce Murli points, but so do the BKs have their reasons.

The PBK knowledge, at least for me, satisfies more the taste of the wilder, thinking and extracting mind and intellect, but purity is not measured by such spiritual intelligence (I don't think so at least). How is the "numberwise" in the rosaries measured, by purity of the soul or by the intellect of the soul ? If a BK loves his or her method of remembrance, PBKs need not to try to disprove the method, since the BK intellect is not the same as the PBK, but the BK purity could be much higher. And vice-versa.

So whilst PBKs are explaining their form of remembrance via the Chariot of Virendra Dev Dixit, they should try to answer is why there are ex-PBKs and off-shoot parties such as the Vishnu Party. If the Gyan and remembrance is rock solid. We haven't heard from these ex-PBKs.

I recall I voted for PBKs to be included in this website because XBKChat excluded them and thus the picture gave a limited view. That was not so long ago. I see this again. Yoo hoo, ex-PBKs where are you ?

Nice post Bansy

Yoo hoo, ex-PBKs where are you ?

Yes, why not. Everyone in the Yagya should have a voice? I am curious as to why xPBKs became like that ... from their own point of view that is, not others.

The problem being will any of them speak English?

Dear Sister Aimee,
Thanks for sharing your insights and experience. It is refreshing and glad you're really enjoying it.

This realisation cannot only come through the intellect, the heart is involved.

Yes, mataji is right. Our heart is missing here, just trying to understand Baba's Gyan with logics. True enthusiasm about Baba and his knowledge comes with heart. If our heart is really seeking who and how is ShivBaba, we would defintely feel the pull to go there.

when a PBK starts being patronizing and gives too much Advanced Knowledge. This is a place to share experience mostly

I used to have the same feeling before; sharing, exploring and learning. So far, every PBK is putting all-effort through their posts for one reason, i.e to give ‘the recogniton of Father.’ I think we (PBKs) should know this main intention. It is very essential as being a ‘PBK’ to try our best to make other also understand what we have learnt from our Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit). And for this a bit of clash with other souls is bound to be there. Like, so many questions are pointed towards PBKs, and at this, only sharing is not enough; in order to clarify it, one needs to be firm in his understanding, despite the danger of manmat. But sharing is also full of manmat. BKs are our Brothers/Sisters, part of our family and we must try our best to speak up for our Father when they question about him. After all, they (BKs) are also the children of our Father. But so far, despite these efforts, I personally see that the outcome is 0. But still I hope our BK Brothers and Sisters will soon understand ‘ who is our father-in-practical?’

Raviraj

There are many more things to consider, than just saying 'God is here all come'. There is an expression 'once bitten twice shy' and it could be that some seasoned BKs, ex-BKs, will need more than 'no ... Shiva is over here' to be convinced.

If as you say BKs have got it wrong and yet are convinced they are right, then in the same sense PBKs could have got it wrong, but be convinced they are right. Each soul will find their own place, don't be too over anxious about converting souls, because that usually just rubs them up the wrong way and points them in the opposite direction.

You give good points and have expressed your belief and enthusiam, maybe you will have to be content with that and realise souls will understand what they need to in there own time.

Each soul will find there own place, don't be too over anxious about converting souls,

Some of my best acquaintances are not even Raja Yogis. Jains, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists and Muslims. I haven't come across Arya Samajis nor Sanyasis (Shankarcharya) nor communists yet. These souls are decent honest hardworking and believe and help others selflessly, in fact I find that I sometimes learn more from them than from BKs. Not everyone needs to be converted.

I only quote what was in the movie "Gandhi" when Gandhi advised a Hindu whose son was killed by a Muslim man, was to pick any orphaned child the same age as his son and raise him as his own son, but raise him up as a Muslim.

Bhais,

ex-l, John and Bansy I complete understand how you must feel as John mentioned once bitten twice shy.

That is why there are many BK's still with the organization they have invested so much time, money etc. They would feel foolish to admit that maybe there's something wrong there. I was at that stage at one time but there comes a point where it will start to become "blah blah blah". It really is up to you to move forward with this or simply drop it and maybe look at another source just a note on my experience with this the other sources are basically saying the same thing in a different way. Nothing new.

You have to admit this is something very different. That is why people keep coming back to this even after they have become X. If you thought this was foolishness then you wouldn't be wasting your precious time here. Even the ex-pbk's will come back everyones role is different. The ego gets in the way of any progress. Baba is law and some simply cannot deal with this end of story.

Just remember the ocean is very big and we are only starting to understand some of it.

atma