No difference in the 3 worlds.

Dear BK and PBK Brothers.

Just give a thought to the churning below.

Period before 1937 : Bhakti-marg practice of the outside world; souls are going to temples and worshipping God Shiva as jyoti-lingum(light) for centuries; but they do not get any benefit; neither there is sadgati(salvation) nor there is any inheritance received from Shiva; the world keeps on becoming worse(durgati) the result of which, world is split into 9 religions.

Period from 1947- 48 to 1969 (approx = 20 years) : BK world established by God Shiva (point of light ) through' Dada Lekhraj Brahma: BKs remember ShivBaba in the body of Brahma for 20 years; Brahma leaves the body in 1969, but no sadgati or inheritance received by any BK ; BK world passes through the satopradhan to tamopradhan stage and finally there is a split in 1989 when Advanced Knowledge is introduced and a new group of PBKs is formed. (subtle shooting of bhakti-marg in the BK world).


Period 1989 to 2009 (20 years). PBK world established by God Shiva (point of light) in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit; PBKs remember Shiva in Virendra Dev Dixit as Bap-teacher-satguru but again no sadgati or inheritance received; PBK world also starts splitting into potential 9 groups from 1998 onwards ie. moves from satopradhan to tamopradhan stage and finally by 2009 the seed world(PBKs) and the base world(BKs) form 9 groups corresponding to 9 different religions and is heading towards destruction; (again subtle shooting of bhakti-marg in the PBK seed world and BK world ).

Common Factor and end result of bhakti-practice in the above 3 worlds:
All worship/remember Shiva as light;
All pass through the stages of satopradhan, rajopradhan and tamopradhan;
No inheritance or sadgati received by anyone in any of the 3 worlds;
Only durgati and division of the world into 9 different groups.

This co-relates well with many Murli mahavakyas:

"Bhakti hai raat , Gyan hai din";
''Bhakti aur Gyan mein raat-din ka antar hai''; (Bhakti is night and Gyan is day)
''Bhakti-marg hai durgati marg, gyan-marg hai sadgati marg''; (Bhakti leads to insolvency, Gyan leads to salvation)
''Bhakti mein Gyan hota nahin aur Gyan mein Bhakti hoti nahin".(When there is Bhakti, there is no Gyan and when there is Gyan, there is no Bhakti)

Conclusion: The above observation clearly proves the Bhakti-marg shooting(night of Brahma) is going on in the BK world and the PBK world at the subtle level; There is no trace of true Gita Gyan given by the omnipotent God ShivBaba, which should have culminated in uniting the world into one family, one religion and one brotherhood.

Period after 2010: True Gita Gyan will be given when Ram's soul becomes 100% nirakari stage, when Ram and Shiv become combined to become ShivBaba and those who recognise this Rambap's 100% nirakari stage will get inheritance and salvation from Ramshivbaba.

Om Shanti. shivsena.

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finally by 2009 the seed world (PBKs) and the base world (BKs) form 9 groups corresponding to 9 different religions and is heading towards destruction; (again subtle shooting of Bhakti-marg in the PBK seed world and BK world ).

The statement is not finished. What heappens by 2009, the destruction? Which destruction? Internal or external? In the Brahmin familly or the outside world. This destruction (subtle) has already started in the beginning of the Yagya and has even ended (because of the ended role of Shankar).

Gati is when we, the soul, starts thinking actively for The Knowledge - it has happened.

True Gita Gyan will be given

Who will give this Gyan? The soul of Shiva, the soul of Krishna or the soul of Ram? If it is the soul of Shiva then he does not have any percentage in his stage. Yes, he acts as per the drama, but you seem to know his acts in advance. How did you knew? Did you knew the advanced knowledge in advance. We know Him only through The Knowledge He gives. He has said no one knows me what i am as i am, because he is just a point.

those who recognise this Rambap's 100% nirakari stage will get inheritance and salvation from Ramshivbaba.

Is there any other Rambap to recognise? What about the rest? Who will give salvation to the rest (Who don't recognise). Is not bestower of salvation for all, meaning all souls of the world in billions, only one?

Do you have a method to recognise? Can you say the percentage of the stage of the soul of Ram now? In the Murli it is said that rememberance cannot be seen, it is internal, from the outside no one can tell how much remembereance a particular soul has. Many times it is said in the Murli that we even cannot give a proper chart about the rememberance we have.

You have not answered about the term "RamShivbaba" can you find it in this way somewhere in a Murli?

Do you give this as final date or there can be corrections made, because Brother freefall can object because he has 6 ages to shoot.

What do we do in between?

Baba says that when a soul enters into The Knowledge for him it starts his own individual shooting. Can you give dates for all individual souls?

It is a process. Even if you give a final date everything will happen suddenly. Avyakt BapDada has said in Avyakt Vani 18.1.04 that before we think of the end of the world we should first think of our own final period, our own final moments.

BapDada has said many times to fix a date. So here you do. OK this is good. Now we all should follow but please state once more what should we do? What should we become? what should we finish or what should we emerge till this date.

And what about being date concious - we won't have that problem.

BapDada has said that he won't give a date. Where from it occures to you to give these dates. Yes Baba gives them for shootings, roles etc, but from a point of being knowledgfull. Now what you give as churning is new and does not fit because the destruction, the part of Shankar, has already ended. Or do you mean something else?

Ah, yes, you mean the incorporeal stage of the soul of Ram, but in the advanced knowledge we know that even befor the year 2000 the soul of Krishna has reached that stage (am i wrong) then would the soul of Ram reach it after of should it have reached it even before the soul of Krishna.

I believe there is a difference between reaching the stage and maintaining the stage. Like, for instance a child may decide to become a doctor, but later has to make efforts to study. Only ShivBaba does not study or make effort, because He is a unique divine soul. (Abhokta, achinta, akarta etc).

Dear Brother,

Could you, please excuse me and forgive me, because I am sorry I having been teasing you in an impolite manner. All you say may be correct. You have been in The Knowledge many years, so i suppose you could have been exhausted. Of coarse we all see whatever is happening, but you also cannot say there has not been benefit for you or others. For myself i have accepted that effors will not stop. There is the song "Have patience Oh mind, our days of happiness are about to come" it has been playing for many years, but eventualy these days will come for sure. What i can advice you is to study from Baba and you'll be having zeal and enthusiasm even more, or study again the Murlis and will find new points to make you happy.

I have been opposing your views only because they are different and it is said that knowledge comes from one and ignorace comes from everyone else, that applies to me too, that's why we should just present The Knowledge as it is given. Yes, we all think about what we learn, but how will you learn if you think that the t?ahcer is a liar, he is fooling and testing you, it is we that have the problem with ambiguity that we don't understand why is it there, or cannot understand some point. When we put the blame on us it feels goods.

What is lacking, i suppose, is the soul conciousness that you are the same atma, the same atma from our familly the same atma from the past. What i can add is that it is the soul of Shiva who is supposed to give an inheritance, because inheritance is given when one departs and whatever is left is called inheritance, and it is the soul of Shiva that will depart and the soul of Ram will stay.

I also know Baba has been saing lately that study is over. Now is the practical part. We should become everything we have been studied. This is where effort lies.

Dear arjun Bhai.

In the newly printed Murli book (Khand 1 ) of Advance Party it has been said in Murli dated 20-7-04 (page505) " Bhakti marg mein prashna dher utthey hain, Gyan marg mein prashna ki baat nahin''; (meaning that '' in bhakti-marg a lot of queries are asked; in gyan-marg, there are no queries")

The above mahavakya of Shivbap clearly indicates that Shivbap is refering to the queries raised by PBK students in the shooting period of Dwapur and Kaliyug ( which corresponds to Brahma ki raat ie. bhakti-marg ki shooting) and when this shooting period ends in about 2009, then no queries will be raised, as the part of Ramshivbaba(100% incorporeal Father)as Bap-teacher-satguru will start in real sense and True Gita Gyan will then be given and no queries will be asked nor entertained, as whatever is spoken by Ramshivbaba will be the final truth and nothing but the truth.

OK Om Shanti
shivsena.

Dear Brother,

If you state yourself for yourself that you are in the night of ignorance, that whatever we study is not the complete truth, then what you point out will only be ignorance too.

Day does not come at all the places in one and the same time. Not all souls will finish their questions and come into knowledge at the same time.

It is said that the ones who study with love can claim a high number in the mala.

I only oppose your view because of the essence of what you say. You say that the Baba we study from is not Baba, he is Krishna, we better not study form him or we will get more confused. So it is like turning people away.

The example of the exam is not correct because the exam is not about recognizing the Father. This is very easy for his children. The final exam is of complete detachment that everyone attains numberwise. During the time of exam no one is allowed to consult one another. Everyone is alone for himself. So what you try to act as a consultant only proves that it is not the time of exam now. You have only made up even this exam example in a false way so that you can justify your play of a consultant. OK, even if it is the time for exam now, maybe there are such children which are taking their exam sincerely and with good effort, why should you carry away their attention, because both who tell answers and receive answers from others during time of exam in school receive poor marks. So you think we are now in the classroom but there is no teacher. The same way sometimes when the teacher goes out of the room some children start talking and playing mischievous. These children do the same even in front of the teacher out of no respect. Sometimes the teacher scolds them.

In the Murli it is said that Ram cannot be seen nor Ravan can be seen, so how can you see the stage?

What you say about ambiguity and the soul of Krishna teaching, I would like to point once more, is only a statement based on your own judgment, without any practical proofs till this moment. It is like the saying that because I don’t like or understand geometry, then geometry is not a study, nor science, whoever has invented it is a fool that only likes to confuse people and lose their time in pointless drawings.

Till the present moment you have mentioned about the soul of Krishna teaching and the future 100% nirakari stage of Ram and the role of Father – Teacher- Satguru about 8-9 times. Each time more you state it only as a statement, without practical proof, or logical explanation, I’ll try to find proofs and logical explanations for the opposite.

For eg. If it was the soul of Krishna teaching there would not be a difference between a Murli and Avyakt Vani. The role of Father is not only of sowing a seed and giving an inheritance. After sowing the seed and before giving an inheritance he is still a Father in a practical way and in a practical form. One can have a direct relationship with him. In the Murli it is said that when children long for Heaven it is like chasing the Father away. We have such a special guest. Even whilst in the body of Dadi Gulzar when the soul of Krishna narrates the Vani, we consider this to be elated, pay respect to it, study and imbibe because it is said to be Avyakt BapDada speking /because Dada remembers Bap/ so even if in the form of nirakar BapDada it is the soul of Krishna that speaks it will be elevated version. However I very strongly doubt one can recognize. For me, you have just made up some new confusion for yourself that you check whether it will confuse others too. But our task is not to make others confused but make them clear. If you yourself don’t know any answer, then why not sit properly to find out, ask, research and come up with positive conclusion, solution and answer that will make you and others feel good.

Teacher will explain. The part of the Satguru is said to be severe. Maybe this part is not yet started, however, severe or not, one or another part, the actor is one and the same.

You have not pointed where have you taken up the term “Ramshivbaba” from /any Murli?/, or did you made it up yourself.

Also there is mention about the part of Piu when the Gita of the Bhaktimarg use to be explained.

Dear andrey Bhai.

Please answer to the Murli point i have quoted; when Shivbap is describing Bhakti marg in Sakar Murlis before 1969, then is Shivbap talking about the Bhakti marg of the broad drama which has happened in the past or is he talking about the bhakti-marg of the future Sangamyugi drama which is going to happen in the Brahmin family.

If you can ask this question to yourself repeatedly and get an logical answer to it, then you will understand what i am trying to say.

OK Om Shanti.
shivsena.

Dear Brother,
What you say is completely clear. I believe Baba has said for both the outside world and the Brahmin familly. In the Brahmin familly some ask questions, because they don't know. When we take the basic knowlegde we ask basic questions, then they are answered, then advance questions are answered by the Advanced Knowledge. When will these questions stop...? When we receive the full dose of knowledge and we are contented. This happens when we think about The Knowledge again and again and we also find answers.

Baba says all The Knowledge is contained in just "Om Shanti"

So why don't we become Om Shanti???

It's because he has come to make us Om Shanti, not all become Om Shanti at the same time/it is my oppinion, i don't know if it is true/, yes i believe it is true, Baba has said that there are souls who very quickly and firmly take up this first lesson of I am a soul, they have been trying to maintain such awareness throughout the whole cycle.

Only one soul is everpure, he is ever peacefull. Some souls have more peacelessness, so it takes more time.

My point is...that this asking and answering can go on forever...because questions out of opposition occur. Knowledge is extremely easy and simple. Om Shanti

Baba says all The Knowledge is contained in just "Om Shanti"

Dear andrey Bhai.
This is the first time i have heard that The Knowledge is contained in "Om Shanti"; in Murlis it is said that the whole knowledge rests in just two words "Alaf and Be"; ''Ek Alaf ko janene se tum sab kuch jaan javenge"; ( meaning that once you know who is alaf then you will know everything); now the million dollar question is "who is this Alaf'' ?? Is it bindi Shivbap or is it Ramshivbaba??

My point is...that this asking and answering can go on forever...because questions out of opposition occur. Knowledge is extremely easy and simple. Om Shanti

This asking and answering will go on till the shooting period is not over and once Brahma's soul stops going to mt abu and is completely under the control of Ramshivbaba then all queries will end and true Gita knowledge will start from the mouth of the present Chariot.

My queries are not based on opposition; they are based on deep understanding of Murli points and the ambiguity which is there in Advance Party between what is taught and what is happening in practical.

Knowledge is not so easy and simple; if it were, then Baba would not have said in Murlis that ''one out of a crore will really understand me'' (through knowledge); remember, only 108 souls get the title of gyani-tu atma (knowledgeable souls).

shivsena.

Dear Brother,

Did i made up this point myself (about the Om Shanti)? No. I have learned it from Baba. it is said Gyan swarup. Which is this swarup. It is even said that in the form of a seed one is knowledgfull even if one has not listened to knowledge. This is all what i learn. Our effort is to become soulcioncious, not - Brahma Baba when he will stop Going to Mount Abu, or Ram, when he will attain his stage - concious. Is this looking the self or others? You say till these happenings does not happen no one can attain nirakari stage, because The Knowledge is not the true Gita. I say it is possible and this stage has been attained and The Knowledge is not false.

Yes, one can base something on Murli points. But you only speak that you base. Give practical proofs for your statement form the Murli, but one cannot base something on ambiguity.

My queries are not based on opposition; they are based on deep understanding of Murli points and the ambiguity which is there in Advance Party between what is taught and what is happening in practical.

What is based on ambiguity will be ambiguity. Then if you say this Gita is not the true Gita what is based on it will also be falce is it not? So the ambiguity is there even in yours statemenst, then how will you take away ambiguity. If there is ambiguity between what is spoken and what is done, then it only proves we are in the Kingdom of Ravan. no one says we are in the kingdom of Ram now. But OK, we make effort now. Maya leaves. We say goodbye.

I don't say these questions are of opposition, but opposition is there towards Baba in our minds. Because we like to prove our own mind. But in our mind there is degradation. In Shrimat there is salvation. What i complain about /did i say I am complete/. is that if you mix the knowlegde from Baba with your own knowledge, then ambiguity comes.

No, Brother, it is never said in the Murli that knowledge is difficult. It is sayd easy knowledge, we make it difficult, we make the effort difficult , our life difficult and our head heavy. BapDada then complains that we make such an easy thing like yaadh and a reationship difficult. Such an easy atteinment, imperishable attainment difficult.

It is said like this (that out of many only few sill understand) for some reason. Compared to the world of billions, how many do know them. And compared to the Brahminf familly who has recognised him - in corpreal form. And even out of those who has recognises - how many have faith it is ShivBaba speaking. You are not one of them. Baba says very few recognise me, but this is not at all difficult too, because my children can have no virtues but will have one virtue to recognise me. And it is said it is my children who defame me. I come to give them heaven on the palm of my hand and they say ... I am omnipresent, or ... no present. Others don't defame as much as my children. However, i have to come and uplift them.

Who is Allaf you know. Shiv Bap or Ramvali soul???? (Ramshivbaba is not a term Baba uses).

The form is one we remember in the corporeal form, we remembre both. My personal oppinion is Alaf is Ramvali soul if it makes you content this answer. I think like this because Baba says that this Alaaf - the first letter of the alfabet is a staright line means he is up in his effeorts. (Shiva does not make any effort). Also it is said Alaf had Allah. So Allah is Shiv Bap. Allah anad Alaf cannot be one and the same soul. Shiv is rather a point.

Who is Allaf you know. Shiv Bap or Ramvali soul???? (Ramshivbaba is not a term Baba uses).

Dear andrey Bhai.

Please refer to the Murli khand 1 of Advanced Knowledge in Hindi; Murli dated 20-2-83 on page 125 ; it clearly states that "Iss samay tum atma Ramshivbaba shree shree ki mat par chalte ho" -- meaning that this time(meaning auspicious Confluence Age which is going to come in future when Ram and Shiv become combined) you souls get the highest mat of shree shree Ramshivbaba.

The above Murli point clearly proves that unless Ram and Shiv become combined(shree shree) we cannot get any Shrimat from anybody during the shooting period and if at all there is anybody giving manmat, it is mann-roopi Brahma only who is also called 'mann' of Shiva. (buddhi of Shiva is Rambap who is yet to achieve the incorporeal stage.)

shivsena.

Dear Brother,
Could you, please, send this and if you have it in digital form. However little Hindi i can know i know chalo - means follow and it is in present tense, it is not said will follow.

meaning that this time(meaning auspicious Confluence Age which is going to come in future when Ram and Shiv become combined)

And it is not enought this point for this statement. Why it should be about the future? Proof for this! What is "auspicious Confluence Age". In my view this Confluence Age is for revelation of teh highest on high human beings. Whane has this revelatino happened? I think in 1976 the revelation of the highest on high Father happened, so it is logical for one to make the conclusion that this year, whether the beginning or the end, is definitely part of this most auspisious Confluence Age.

But then if the quoted Murli point is not a Shrimat (because you say it is impossible to have Shrimat during the shooting period), then what is the reason to believe it? This is the ambiguity. Can we bring up a truthful conclusion, out of false statement? If the statement is not false, and is true, then it may be Shrimat too (even in the shooting period).

The above Murli point clearly proves that unless Ram and Shiv become combined(shree shree) we cannot get any Shrimat

Of course, because Shiv needs a body.

anybody during the shooting period

If it is the shooting period it is the Confluence Age and Shiva is here and is giving Shrimat, otherwise it is not a shooting period, it is not a Confluence Age.

if at all there is anybody giving manmat

Here also you have given wrong interpreation of manmat. Manmat means swamat, one's own mind. the oppinion of Brahma can be termed parmat.

Whether the mind (Brahma) is under the control of the intellect or not, it does not make the intellect dissapear, and still it is part of the Trimurti. It is Trimurti Shivjayanti. We cannot expect one of them to disappear.

Dear Brother shivsena,

I have said that each time more you state about Krishna teaching and the future nirakari stage of the soul of Ram without proofs, I’ll be trying to give proofs for the opposite, but now I cannot think of anything more.

I just liked to say that if it is true it should be beneficial, if it is not true it is not beneficial.

In the Gita it is written God Krishna speaks. We know it is a mistake but there is a shooting for this mistake in the BK world (believing Dada Lekraj to be the corporeal form of God). For this there should be even a shooting in the seed form world of PBK.

Dear Brother shivsena,

I have said that each time more you state about Krishna teaching and the future nirakari stage of the soul of Ram without proofs, I’ll be trying to give proofs for the opposite, but now I cannot think of anything more.

Dear andrey Bhai.
There are enough proofs in Murlis describing Ram as ShivBaba; but unfortunately PBKs do not have the third eye to recognise these gems of knowledge; read any Murli between the lines (not verbatim) and you will find one point in every Murli which suggests that Bap-teacher-satguru is one who attains the 100% nirakari stage or bindu-roop stage in the end (and not jyoti bindu Shiv)

In the Gita it is written God Krishna speaks. We know it is a mistake but there is a shooting for this mistake in the BK world (believing Dada Lekraj to be the corporeal form of God). For this there should be even a shooting in the seed form world of PBK.

You have said it very correct that the shooting of the mistake should there be in PBK seed world also; so just try to think how this shooting is taking place; PBKs think that the present body of Virendra Dev Dixit belongs to Ram but in reality it is Krishna who is using this body and Ram is on his journey to achieve the 100% nirakari stage; so the subtle shooting, that Krishna is God of Gita is taking place in Advance Party from 1989 onwards(which co-relates well with the Dwapur and Kaliyugi shooting period)

shivsena.

Dear Brother,

Firstly, it was not correct that remark that i wrote regarding the manmat and parmat. it depends on the viewpoint.

Avyakt Brahma is pure. Whatever he speaks through any body is according to Shrimat.

There are enough proofs in Murlis describing Ram as ShivBaba

If there are such points, please - bring them here.

We are mouth born Brahmins. We don't look at the body to see who speaks inside because the one who speaks inside cannot be seen. We listen to the versions.

I just don't see the point. Whatever you say it should have a positive result. I mean, please offer some solution too. For example - what do you do in this situation and what do you suggest should be done? Do we stop study for 4 years? What do we study etc.? Because if you only point these issue out then people are left confused what to do. You deprive them from the only thing they have - one faith in one. You say - they have a mistake ... but give them something instead.

Dear Brother shivsena

I have some two more things; one is about the role of Father–Teacher-Satguru. Who has played the role of the Father of sowing the seeds of knowledge in the beginning of the Yagya? Was the soul of Ram in 100% nirakari stage then? The way the role of the mother can be played, the same way the role of Father–Teacher-Satguru is played.

Then in the Murli it is said that “I’m Father–Teacher-Satguru” (cannot quote exactly but have read it just today). So it is the soul of Shiva speaking through Dada Lekraj? Yes, these roles are played through the other personality (not Dada), but who plays?

Then if it is your own invention, when one makes an invention he says, e.g. this car is powered with water – this way we’ll have plenty of recourses to move it, we won’t have to incur expenses in petrol, no waste etc. So what is the benefit of this invention? At all what difference does it make who pays the part? What does it change in our efforts, perceptions etc? The personality is one. One cannot differentiate. Those who differentiates, Baba has said it is the monkey.

And I was even ready to reach to this extent that OK, if everyone accepts I’ll also accept in the name of agreement but this false agreement is no good. Whatever everyone says …we don’t listen.

And why it became such an issue? Because what you say, i don’t agree and will never agree. You inspire disbelief (the Krishna issue) and that for me is bad. However, you are free.