Questions for PBKs

for Prajapita Brahma Kumaris (Advance Party), or those interested in becoming PBKs, to discuss AIVV matters in an open, non-judgemental manner.
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mbbhat

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post17 Sep 2008

Dear ex-l soul,

If you are sure, it is good. But I wanted to hear this from PBKs.
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jay

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post19 Sep 2008

mbbhat wrote:If you are sure, it is good. But I wanted to hear this from PBKs.

Om Shanti ... well, I am a PBK Bhai so you can get the answer from me.

First of all, I just want to make something clear about this topic ...

1) God has come to convert this world of hell into heaven and the population of heaven is not 5-7 billion but it is total 9,000,00 (where actually 4,500,00 moves to heaven directly by cleansing their soul alive in the body, while 4,500,00 will take birth from the earlier one). So it is better to think about the population of heaven as it is our main aim ... that also the population of 4,500,00 who give birth to the remaining 4,500,00 ... but the important thing to understand is who is going to make us LAKSHMI Narayan?

So, actually focus on that GOD who had promised us to convert hell to heaven for us ... as the GOD is the only core point of the whole world which is actually its expansion, i.e. to focus our mind and intellect (man-buddhi) on the Seed of the World Tree which is the permanent Chariot of Shiv. Even in Murlis, it has been said that we have polyfurcated our mind, or expanded ourself, in variety of things for 63 lives but now this is the time to become soul conscious in order to be a part of the family who are going to move from hell to heaven. To be soul conscious, we have to understand our Supreme Soul Father and the Chariot used by him to prove his "NIRAKARI----NIRVIKARI----NIRHANKARI". That is, to prove his incorporeal stage even in corporeal body, his viceless nature and his anti-ego stage that to being in human body which itself proves his detachment from everything. Hence understanding Shiv with his permanent Chariot itself is a greatest gift as it helps us to realize ourself and our 84 birth, i.e. to understand our start, middle and last of the world life (AADI--MADHYA--ANT.

Regarding to your question:- human souls are the most predominant in the category of souls ... even it possesses the essence of other souls, for example, some people fight the way the dog does, some are so restless in their act that they seems to be like monkey, some are very fast in their act like ants, while some are slow like snails etc ... ~Their act, way of thinking, compels us to personify them with other non human souls.

There are some count of human souls who are said to be human only on the basis of body they get. These categories of human souls do not have the power of manan chintan manthan, i.e the power of thinking which is the actual reason behind the distinct categorization of human souls from other ones. Hence in true way, these soul do not fall in category of human, i.e. manushya. They are almost 2 billion in count, while true human souls are almost 5 billion in count. Hence the total sometimes comes as 500 crore (excluding the non-thinking powered human souls) and sometimes 700 crore (including all category human souls).

This is for the outer world but this actually is applicable in our world of Brahmin too ... where huge population do not even bother to think where Shiv is today, what about his job of "patit pavan", who is going to give birth to first prince-princess (brahma-mama) of Satyug etc. Ignoring Shiv and his Murli, our poor BK fellows have started doing bhoot pooja, i.e. worshipping gurus like Dadis, sister in charge, center-in-charge etc ... disregarding ShivBaba and his teachings ... a sad part of B.Ks ...

Acha Om Shanti
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bansy

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post19 Sep 2008

jay wrote:these soul do not fall in category of human

I am sorry but to be able to have the thought of another soul who is sitting next to you or on the bus or your boss or even your own lokik Father or mother or Sister in your house, or your wife or husband or your neighbour or ... etc and consider them as a lump of turd is the most degrading statement made on this forum and anywhere else for that matter. I suppose it could apply to you yourself then ! Don't all these souls come from the same Soul World. If so, whose fault is that that these souls are in such a degraded stated ? If The Tree of Humanity has such rotten degraded twigs, then who made this tree ?

PS I am not even going to try to debate on this senseless point unless you can list out these 2 billion souls, who and where they reside, on a public forum such as this website or anywhere else public.
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ex-l

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post19 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:I am sorry but to be able to have the thought of another soul ...

Its an interesting dilemma ... and one not ended there.

The PBKs are correct to point out an anomaly within "God's Perfect Teachings™" God (or at the very least Lekhraj Kirpalani acting perfectly according to Shrimat, as we are told) did say that there were only 5 Billion human souls. Now there are 6 to 7 Billion. How do we accommodate that?

    Do we do what the BKWSU leadership does ... edit the Murlis to update them again (like I saw in a recent one in which it was written the yugya "starting 73 years ago", obviously not as spoken) ... hide it from newcomers ... keep a straight face ... and wash our hands of the matter?
    Or do we do what Virendra Dev Dixit does and attempt to derive some meaning from this anomaly (error) and address it bravely, if offensively?
How could The Supreme Father not know how many children he has? And if he can be wrong about such a fixed thing ... then what else is he wrong about!?!

Is The Cycle not 5,000 years after all but 6,724 years?

(a number taken a random equal to the world estimated population of 6,724,638,000).

Is there a further contradiction? ... The PBKs and the AIVV say these souls are just like insects that come and go unable to think or "churn" etc. The BKWSU say they are having their Golden Age now and we would recognise them by their good looks, wealth, apparent world power, karma free life (albeit declining quickly) and material life.

Do BKs not subtlety put anyone have 'fame, wealth and success' in this day and age as "first birthers" ... a soul that is fresh from the Soul World and at the peak of their power and so on? (Even if they chase them in order to gain 'fame, wealth and success' themselves!).
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arjun

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post20 Sep 2008

Sister bansy wrote:PS I am not even going to try to debate on this senseless point unless you can list out these 2 billion souls, who and where they reside, on a public forum such as this website or anywhere else public.

Although it is true that these 2 billion human souls do not have much power of thinking and churning we are not supposed to see them like insects. Instead we are told to view every soul as a future deity soul because we do not know which soul may turn out to be a deity soul in future.

As regards the 2 billion souls that cannot think and churn to that extent, I think we can include souls which have a 'crowd' mentality. There have been many incidents of public outrage in India and abroad where innocent people have been killed by public (crowds) on the basis of mere suspicion. Or souls which follow some wicked politicians to cause damage to public property to vent their anger on some persons/incidents. For example, leader of a particular party gave some statements against the people of two north Indian states living in the Mumbai, the financial capital of India. And many of his followers started tormenting innocent people of those states living in Mumbai without thinking of the consequences. Similar incidents have taken place in foreign countries also.
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mbbhat

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post20 Sep 2008

Dear Jay soul, I wanted to know

    1) when did Virendra Dev Dixit first speak about this extra 2 billion population?
    2) Was the number mentioned as 2 billion initially or later got changed from one billion (say) to 2 billions (like sequence of predictions of different deadlines of Destruction date)?
    3) Arjun had mentioned that there are many examples of ex-PBks who have again become PBKs. I asked him whether he could guide me in meeting them.
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bansy

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post20 Sep 2008

When Jesus stood in front of Mary as she was being stoned (as she was accused of being a prostitute), he held up a stone and told the crowd, "he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her". The crowd lay down the rocks in their hands. What was the number of non-thinkers in the crowd ?

No-one is pure in this world. We are all sinners. Even Murlis say this over and over.

If any BK or PBK wishes to make a counterwise claim, then they can cast that stone to anyone they wish. I would think I belong to a population of 7 billion, not 2, not 5 or whatever number of people anyone wishes in their own tree, because I think there are 7 billion souls in The Tree of humanity. Even if there are a number of weak souls, it makes no difference. It is the same tree. Well, as example, when the US President and the Indian President are willing to sign nuclear deals and send hundreds and thousands of souls to war and die and kill, would these two souls be included in the 2 billion portion or the 5 billion portion? Is there any difference? NO ONE has recognised the TRUE Father, he is in the process of being revealed as we study along. So the so-called groups of humans is not a split of (nonthinking : thinking) of 2 and 5, but a split of 7 and 0.

However, I will leave it up to you all to decide which group you think you belong. Gross violence is no more dangerous than subtle violence.

My opinion.
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ex-l

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post20 Sep 2008

arjun wrote:Although it is true that these 2 billion human souls do not have much power of thinking and churning we are not supposed to see them like insects. Instead we are told to view every soul as a future deity soul because we do not know which soul may turn out to be a deity soul in future.

Elsewhere Virendra Dev Dixit, or ShivBaba (through Veerendra Dev Dixit), describes them as animals - which may not be nice but might well be true ... I would not want to make that call though. I do not think that the Murlis are the 'be all and end of all' of knowledge or applicable for all times and so I do not understand the slavishness which is applied to them. I do though admire the honest acknowledgement and attempts to address the anomalies rather than just erase and re-write them.

Who can really tell? I agree, best not to say ...
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bansy

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post20 Sep 2008

Folks, whether you consider the Bhagavad Gita is of significant value is of your choice, but have a look at Chapter 5 Verse 18,19 (you can get lots of Bhagavad Gitas online for free) : (someone can type the Hindi here) :

Chapter 5 Verses 18,19 wrote:Wise men regard all beings as equal; a learned priest, a cow, an elephant, a rat, or a filthy, rat-eating outcaste.
Freed from the endless cycle of birth and death, they can act impartially towards all beings, since to them all beings are the same.

So if you wish to divide even the human species (let alone animal species) into several kinds and populations, then do so. The person whom you consider you a rat will likely feel the same towards you.

But after all, for those in the BK world, the Bhagavad Gita is of little significant use, whereas you can get the Murlis for free when the controlling administration gives them to you, and thus can ignore this post.
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new knowledge

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post22 Sep 2008

Dear arjunbhai, God (Father) is beyond The Cycle of bodily birth & death. Similarly, He is beyond 'Nishchayrupi janam-maran ka chakra', i.e, The Cycle of birth & death representing faith & doubt. Then, which type of birth the God (Father), i.e. Shiv gets during the Confluence Age, in remembrance of which, MahaaShivraatri is celebrated in those spiritual cults labeled (by BKs/PBKs) as 'Bhakti cults'? Again, Bharat is described (in Murlis) as the birthplace of the Father; then, who is this Father & which type of birth (bodily or Nishchayrupi) does He gets in Bharat?
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jay

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post22 Sep 2008

bansy wrote:I am sorry but to be able to have the thought of another soul who is sitting next to you or on the bus or your boss or even your own lokik Father or mother or Sister in your house, or your wife or husband or your neighbour or ... etc and consider them as a lump of turd is the most degrading statement made on this forum and anywhere else for that matter. I suppose it could apply to you yourself then ! Don't all these souls come from the same Soul World. If so, whose fault is that that these souls are in such a degraded stated ? If The Tree of Humanity has such rotten degraded twigs, then who made this tree ?

PS I am not even going to try to debate on this senseless point unless you can list out these 2 billion souls, who and where they reside, on a public forum such as this website or anywhere else public.

Dear bansy,

I am really sorry if my words used were very bitter but the fact is you took it in a wrong way ... I never said that we should treat particular soul as inferior ... no ... ShivBaba has asked us to see every one soul consciously; but, the fact is, that certain count of human souls do not have the power of thinking ... Why are humans considered to be very different from the category of animals??? ... For the only reason that they have the ability of thinking, or churning, while animals don't try to do so ... Hence for those human souls who don't bother to think any, and do whatever they like without thinking anything about the out come ... how could we consider that count of souls as "manan chintan karne yogya-MANUSHYA", i.e "capable of thinking-HUMAN"? ...

It's just the only personification tally of the intellect of such souls with the animals on the basis of the outcome but it doesn't mean that I know these souls practically and treat them in same way ... just think!!! Why Shiv has come to earth in 1936 when the population was only almost 5 to 5 and a half billion? ... In Murli it has been stated that "main manushyo ko padaane aata hoon", i.e. "I come to teach only human" ... so what about the souls that were staying at Paramdham at that time who are still gradually coming to the earth to play their role?

Were they Manushya according to god Shiv? ... no ... because this knowledge could be understood only by MANUSHYA souls, (i.e. who have the power or ability to think or churn on the points of that ever pure Shiv's knowledge) who can revolute themselves for the sake of peace and prosperity, not only for him, but for the whole world ... this is fact and I am just trying to put light on this ... nothing else!!!
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ex-l

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post22 Sep 2008

I am not online right now and so I cannot check what the population was between 1932 and whenever the 5 billion figure was given. I can say from memory that he did did give other specific numbers in the 1930s for how many "Europeans" were going to die etc.

Of course, for me, the 1936 date is fictional. Lekhraj Kirpalani retired in 1932. "God Shiva" was not documented or invented until some time after 1950. We are still waiting for firm evidence to clarify those dates. Just in passing, I query Indian religions' need for wonderful exact figures; Hinduism does it, Buddhism perhaps even more ... I mean, nature is random. It far much more statistically likely to be an odd number like, e.g. "5,327,891,076". Our clocks and measuring sticks are all relatively new inventions ... why should the universe tick to them?

As to "group" or "hive souls" ... its a possibility I suppose. You could invent anything to be true on the psychic world. It does not strike me thought that all that many BK followers are THAT clever. I would guess that you must get a similar proportion of dumb ones inside the BKWSU to outside the BKWSU. What we need are some examples to be tested.
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shivsena

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post22 Sep 2008

jay wrote: Why Shiv has come to earth in 1936 when the population was only almost 5 to 5 and a half billion? ...in Murli it has been stated that "main manushyo ko padaane aata hoon" i.e. "i come to teach only human" ...

Dear jay Bhai.

Not trying to oppose you in any way; just statistically speaking it would be interesting to note the world population graph as per the internet surfing :

First 100 crore (1 billion) - year 1830.
Next 100 crore was added in 100 years - year 1930.
Next 100 crore was added in 30 years - year 1960.
Next 100 crore was added in 15 years - year 1975.
Next 100 crore was added in 12 years - year 1988.
Next 100 crore was added in 10 years -year 1998.
Next 100 crore will be added in about 10 -11 years from 1998

Total population about 700 crore today.

shivsena.
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bansy

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post22 Sep 2008

jay wrote:to see every one soul consciously; but, the fact is, that certain count of human souls do not have the power of thinking ... Why are humans considered to be very different from the category of animals??? ... For the only reason that they have the ability of thinking, or churning, while animals don't try to do so

There is an issue of clarifying what is the population and what is defined as "human" and "animal" here. It is not the inferiority which is of concern, it is the classification. But there actually is no issue. Why make a distinction ?

Simply pick up a Bhagavad Gita and look at verses 8, 9 or 29, 32 in Chapter 6. There are other instances of such. I won't be bothered to reproduce them all as anyone can do it themself but they go along the same lines as verse 32 says
Chapter 6 Verse 32 wrote:When he sees all beings as equal in suffering or in joy because they are like himself, that man has grown perfect in Yoga

Yes, there so seem to be some souls who think and others who seem not to think. But I'd like to stay impartial. As from what you are saying, anyone who is sitting around you can really be considered an animal because actually no-one has the ultimate full power of thinking (no-one is perfect yet), so who are we to judge another "human" to have better power of thinking to one's own power of thinking ?

Thus I think this issue is best clarified with ShivBaba.

Can you or another PBK check when ShivBaba actually spoke of these 2 billion "inhuman" souls, and did He talk about these souls when there was only 1 million of them, or even 500,000, or even just the first such occurrence of an "inhuman" soul ? How many souls will recognise ShivBaba at the end ?

I think this is the point mbbhat and others are asking about and willing to understand more about.
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ex-l

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Re: Questions for PBKs

Post23 Sep 2008

shivsena wrote:Next 100 crore was added in 100 years - year 1930.

Shivsena is correct. The accepted estimates from reliable sources such as Oxford University, US Government Census are;

    1930 - 2,070,000,000 - 2,073,363,421 - 2,145,000,000
    1940 - 2,300,000,000 - 2,299,541,939 - 2,340,000,000
    1950 - 2,555,948,654 - 2,516,000,000 - 2,535,093,000
Lekhraj Kirpalani retired in 1932 to start the Om Mandli when population was just over 2 Billion. Shiva entered into the equation, by name, after 1950 when population was around 2.5 Billion. The PBKs say Murlis started in, what, 1947? In the 60s, when predictions were definitely made, the population was up into the 3 billions. When Lekhraj Kirpalani died, it was only around 3.7 billion.

So the "5 Billion" was a future prediction that went wrong and then had to be re-written. Does anyone want to pick out other specific numbers from the early papers?
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