How to recognise that God Father Shiva's Presence in PBK?

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truth

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How to recognise that God Father Shiva's Presence in PBK?

Post26 Feb 2007

Dear Bro.,

I have lot of questions in mind , I know the PBK knowledge clearly
    1. Gods attribute is not only OCEAN OF KNOWLEDGE , If your questions/doubts in Gyan are answered (both satisfied/dissatisfied) even based on Murli then can we say God's presence?
    2. through Brahma Baba, God Father Shiva has given lot of satisfation to Brahmin, in form of Knowledge, Love, deep peace, Bodiless stage, Vidhehi Stage. In any case a soul cannot say I am not satisfied. This proves God's presence. Why not the same with PBKs?
    3. But I got answer through PBK that God is now playing Father role or Part of Shankar. Yes, I agreed, cannot Father love his child or give satisfaction to his child through meditation or by dhristi then his all questions will be solved. Because Almighty is having that power. I am not saying make dead body to alive as Baba says in Murli.
COMPLETELY SATISFIED ADHINDRIYA SUKH as BKs experience through Sakar Brahma (Do not misunderstand that I am saying for Love).

Remaining questions I will put up later after seeing you reply.
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abrahma kumar

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Post26 Feb 2007

Thank you truth. Your questions seem expressly aimed at eliciting a PBK response however while I am not a PBK I'd like to try to understand them - hope you don't mind.

Is the basic point behind your post that PBK's are somehow 'dissatisfied' with The Knowledge in the BKWSU Murli? Do you take this to imply that they therefore do not recognise Lord Shiva?

Are you saying that the PBK's 'quest for Shankar' displays a 'lack of contentment' with the role now being played by both Incorporeal Shiva and Avyakt Brahma as taught by the BKWSU?

Is this your churing on why PBK students find themselves seeking the 'comfort' of a bodily being through whom their connection with Shiva may be experienced - if they so choose to connect to Shiva that is? Otherwise they just stop at focussing their spiritual energies on a corporeal being?

Do your questions give an insight into why a BKWSU student might feel that the PBK's are a sort of 'inferior' spiritual organisation?

Thank you
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arjun

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Post26 Feb 2007

Truth wrote:Gods attribute is not only OCEAN OF KNOWLEDGE , If your questions/doubts in Gyan are answered (both satisfied/dissatisfied) even based on Murli then can we say God's presence?

I agree that being the 'Ocean of knowledge' is not the only attribute of God, but nevertheless it is one of the important attributes. One cannot establish a loving or beneficial relationship with someone, if one does not know about him/her or his/her beliefs completely. Similarly, in order to have a fruitful and satisfactory relationship with God, one needs to know about Him completely.
Truth wrote:through Brahma Baba, God Father Shiva has given lot of satisfation to Brahmin, in form of Knowledge, Love, deep peace, Bodiless stage, Vidhehi Stage. In any case a soul cannot say I am not satisfied. This proves God's presence. Why not the same with PBKs?

I am not fully in agreement with your above statement. Although Brahma Baba had given satisfaction in the form of love, but I don't think he had satisfied everyone from the point of view of knowledge. The Gyan that was being narrated during the time of Brahma Baba was basic/primary knowledge, that too was coloured by Bhakti. If Brahma Baba had satisfied all the BKs in knowledge then they would have easily answered all the questions that the PBKs or ex-BKs have been asking since many years on the internet (xbkchat and this bkinfo forum). But no official answer has been received for any question.

What is the use of that love which ignores/encourages wicked elements? The Yagya has been increasingly been dominated by elements which have violated Shrimat in general after Mama left her body and in particular after Brahma Baba left his body. PBKs have already provided a long list of such violations of Shrimat (not at individual level, but at the level of BKWSU) along with Murli proofs.

What is the use of that deep peace, bodiless stage which is based on an artificial atmosphere including grand buildings, interiors, red lights, incense sticks, white clothes, sweets, etc. All this peace and bodiless stage vanishes as soon as they see the PBKs. If the BKs were really in a bodiless stage they would not harm the PBKs physically when they come to distribute Godly message to them peacefully and unarmed?

Although PBKs do not claim to have attained a stage that you describe/desire, but they have at least tried to follow the Shrimat in the true spirit as far as possible without all the facilities that the BKs have.
But I got answer through PBK that God is now playing Father role or Part of Shankar. Yes, I agreed, cannot Father love his child or give satisfaction to his child through meditation or by dhristi then his all questions will be solved. Because Almighty is having that power. I am not saying make dead body to alive as Baba says in Murli.

Yes, he is not just giving knowledge but also taking care of the Yagya and the PBKs with love. As you know that Mama has not been directly involved with the affairs of the Yagya directly since many years; so who is giving the required love and affection to the PBKs. It is ShivBaba who is playing the role of mother as well as Father through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit.

Moreover the same soul of Dada Lekhraj, who played a mother's role is also playing a role through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit by entering into him. That is the reason why Shankar is shown as Ardhanaareeshwar. The stage that you desire, i.e. solution of all doubts through drishti is also taking place through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit and may take place on larger scale in the end. But until the bodyconscious human souls have doubts regarding knowledge God will have to give answers through the body in written or oral form.
COMPLETELY SATISFIED ADHINDRIYA SUKH as BKs experience through Sakar Brahma (Do not misunderstand that I am saying for Love).

If BKs were experiencing Ateendriy Sukh (supersensuous bliss) then there would not be an increasing number of PBKs or ex-BKs or Jannisders or Dis. If the BKs were really experiencing such supersensuous bliss, then BapDada would not have needed to give a warning to all the heads of departments and center incharges that he would seek an account from them and that the devotees are crying in pain.

I wish to clarify that the above statements do not mean that we have any illwill towards the BKs nor does it mean that PBKs have already attained a karmateet stage. The above statements are not addressed to any individual but to the BKWSU as an organization and only to bring out the truth.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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ex-l

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Post26 Feb 2007

arjun wrote:The Yagya has been increasingly been dominated by elements which have violated Shrimat in general after Mama left her body and in particular after Brahma Baba left his body.

What is the use of that deep peace, bodiless stage which is based on an artificial atmosphere including grand buildings, interiors, red lights, incense sticks, white clothes, sweets, etc. All this peace and bodiless stage vanishes as soon as they see the PBKs.

As a commonsense point of view, it is very hard to argue with. What is the use? Well, we can all guess what the uses are ... but the acquisition of power, the symbols and associations of earthly power, is an attractive Maya. Dangerous if used as part of the seduction of new followers, e.g. Nuneham Park global retreat mansion.

For the BKs, its a question of looking into a mirror and not liking what they are seeing, is not it? How enlightened is that?

bansy

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Post26 Feb 2007

Arjunbhai,

Since/for how long have the BKWSU been wary and cautious about the PBKs ? Has the anamosity been increasing and escalating in more recent times ?
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arjun

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Post26 Feb 2007

Sister Bansy wrote:Since/for how long have the BKWSU been wary and cautious about the PBKs ? Has the anamosity been increasing and escalating in more recent times ?

The BKWSU has been showing animosity towards the PBKs (especially Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) ever since Baba Virendra Dev Dixit was revealed as the new corporeal medium of ShivBaba in the Brahmin family. Initially a few Brahmin souls accepted. The numbers remained very less for more than a decade. The BKWSU was also not that much worried about the PBKs during that period I suppose. Then the numbers started increasing since 1988-89, when some BK surrendered teachers left the BKs and surrendered their life to ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). Since that time the animosity has only been on an increase because of their anger on the outflow of BKs to AIVV.

The proof for this increasing animosity is that about two decades ago any BK from any part of the world could visit any BK center and attend classes. Only if he/she had to stay at the center or if he/she was forced by circumstances to eat at the BK center for a few days he had to bring a permission/introductory letter from the concerned BK center. As the activities of the PBKs increased initially the BK centers in India started looking at any BK coming from other cities with suspicion. Even if they did not have to stay or eat at the center and had to just attend the classes, they had to bring permission letters from their own center. But after the activities/knowledge of the PBKs has spread to foreign countries and ever since Advanced Knowledge is being discussed through internet, even the BK centers located in foreign countries have been asking BKs coming from other centers/countries to bring permission letter.

A few months ago a PBK visited a BK center in a city located in a foreign country where there were no PBKs, they were not allowed to attend the Murli class. When they said that they had come in a hurry and could not bring permission letter, they were asked to arrange for the permission letter through email. Since they could not do so, they were forced to sit at home and give Godly message to the friends and relatives of their host. They fear that if PBKs are allowed to enter the BK center they would spread the Advanced Knowledge among the local BKs and wean them away.

Other proofs of the animosity includes the strict vigil that is maintained in Madhuban, Mount Abu/Taleti during Avyakt BapDada's programmes. As long as I visited Madhuban more than a decade ago, BKs were not given any special badges/labels to wear in order to distinguish BKs from PBKs. But since a decade many measures are being undertaken to prevent entry of PBKs into Madhuban. Another proof is the strict control over the issue of copies of Murlis to the BKs for self study. Ever since the activities of PBKs has increased it has become increasingly difficult even for the BKs to get copies of Murlis.

But, I am sure that as more and more BKs realize the truth, they would stand up for truth and in the end the truth shall prevail. Even those who are creating obstacles in the spread of truth today would realize the uselessness of their acts and accept the truth either openly or in their mind with a feeling of guilt.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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abrahma kumar

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Post26 Feb 2007

Sorry but I need help to undertsand the point of truth's post.

bansy

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Post26 Feb 2007

Yes, sorry Abrahma Kumar, I sort of sidestepped this thread. Would like to see more from Brother truth too to get a balanced view.

truth

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Most beloved Shiva's presence in Sakar

Post27 Feb 2007

Dear Arjun Bhai, Sister Bansy, & other souls,

Thanks to all for replying to my post.

Let me say openly that I am not addicted to BK or PBK or ex-BK etc. etc. But I love my Baba Shiv Baba & follow Brahma who is having good wishes about his children to become Bapsaman. I do not hate any one.

As per Arjun Bhai's reply, I wan't to say something that I need strong straight forward experience not Gyan/debate/stories/Murli's to show ShivBaba's presence in PBK because Murli points are twisting (some are towards BK, some are towards PBK). Baba's Murli depends on students sitting in front of him. Its like waves in a lake.

Yes, there may be lot of corruption in BK, so that doesn't mean that one should blindly jump into PBK. I came to BK with love for ShivBaba and his ordinance about Purity. As per the Murli, Baba says to remember Shiv and follow Brahma (PBKs also agree with this) not Didi/Dadi. So I am doing that only. Let them do anything, I see my Baba's eye only.

WHEREVER GOD IS THERE I SHOULD BE THERE. NO, I MUST BE THERE.

PBKs will have lot of good advance knowlege (some is very logical). I like The Knowledge. But I need to know if the presence of Shiva's fragrance is in there ... OR ...
    It may be greatest Maya for testing BKs faith in ShivBaba through Brahma.
If I experienced the spark of God's presence there then I will break all BK bondages. As per Baba says, I need blessing from all (Brahmin Parivar), if one converted into PBK then BKs will curse like anything at that soul to their face for that I need ALMIGHTY POWER PRESENCE. FOR LAST 6 MONTHS I was in greatest dilemma because of this PBKs Advanced Knowledge and ALMIGHTY'S PRESENCE.

I know that some of the BKs become PBK because of their ego clash/purity problem/anger against Senior Sisters. But those who see and follow Baba only, he/she will never do this. If they have got God's presence there, then its OK. The remaining queries I will put later after seeing the reply.

THANKS Sister BANSY, I have read your old post and I have found that your neutrality means towards TRUTH. If I put anything wrong here do not mind, I want to clarify myself.

SACHE DIL PAR SAHEB RAJI
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proy

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Welcome

Post27 Feb 2007

truth wrote:Dear Arjun Bhai, Sister Bansy, & other souls, Thanx for all for giving reply to my post.

Welcome to the forum, truth. :D
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ex-l

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Re: Most beloved Shiva's presence in Sakar

Post27 Feb 2007

truth wrote:if one converted into PBK then BKs will curse like anything at that soul to their face

Thank you for your sincerity. It is always good to see some truth on this forum. I too look forward to the response.

For those of us that are standing further back in the West, it has been quite a shock to read of this BK versus PBK division. We had no idea it had reached such proportions. No one discusses it. It is all forbidden.

There are, of course, no instructions whatsoever in the Murlis for BKs to behave in this manner ... and so we wonder where they are coming from?

In fact, given the strength of feelings - and even outright violence - why has no senior or junior member of the BKWSU asked BapDada directly about the PBKs and Virendra Dev Dixit and for Shrimat on what to do.

Surely that would be the quickest and easiest way to address matters?

Has this ever been done? A straight answer from God Shiva or Lekhraj Kirpalani would expose both the truth of the PBKs and the source of the problems.
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abrahma kumar

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Post27 Feb 2007

bansy wrote:Yes, sorry Abrahma Kumar, I sort of sidestepped this thread. Would like to see more from Brother truth too to get a balanced view.

Hi Bansy, I haven't quite learnt yet how to link to a topic from with a post however truth posted the following: Most beloved Shiva's presence in Sakar in the PBK section which may be a bit more revealing. Regards
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proy

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How to recognise that God Father Shiva's Presence in PBK?

Post27 Feb 2007

arjun wrote:They fear that if PBKs are allowed to enter the BK center they would spread the Advanced Knowledge among the local BKs and wean them away.

Has anyone tried to do this in the UK?
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arjun

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Post27 Feb 2007

Abrahmakumar wrote:Hi Bansy, I haven't quite learnt yet how to link to a topic from with a post however truth posted the following: Most beloved Shiva's presence in Sakar in the PBK section which may be a bit more revealing. Regards

Both the threads have been merged as both were on the same subject matter.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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arjun

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Post27 Feb 2007

truth wrote:Let me say openly that I am not addicted to BK or PBK or ex-BK etc. etc. But I love my Baba Shiv Baba & follow Brahma who is having good wishes about his children to become Bapsaman. I do not hate any one.

That is so good of you. We all need to imbibe this virtue.
truth wrote:I need strong straight forward experience not Gyan/debate/stories/Murli's to show ShivBaba's presence in PBK because Murli points are twisting (some are towards BK, some are towards PBK). Baba's Murli depends on students sitting in front of him. Its like waves in a lake.

You can find Advanced Knowledge as well as experiences of PBKs on this forum, but if you wish to experience the presence of ShivBaba in the Advance Party, then you would have to undergo the Advance Course and the bhatti if you are willing. Alternatively, you could hear or see any of the clarification Murlis as available on http://www.PBKs.info site.

As regards Murli points being twisting, I agree to some extent because the same Murli points have sometimes been used by the members of different groups within the Brahmin family to prove their claims. But you have been gifted with the third eye of knowledge and wisdom to decide for yourself, what is truth.
Yes, there may be lot of corruption in BK, so that doesn't mean that one should blindly jump into PBK. I came to BK with love for ShivBaba and his ordinance about Purity.

Although the corruption or violation of Shrimat by BKs may be one of the reasons for many of the BKs to leave them and become PBKs, but that is not the sole reason. Most PBKs have become PBKs because their thirst for satisfactory answers to valid querries were not quenched by the BK teachers/Seniors nor is there any scope for the BKs to get the querries cleared from Avyakt BapDada. So it is natural for them to take notice when someone tries to quench their thirst.

Your attraction towards purity is appreciated and ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has commended the BKs umpteen number of times in the clarification Murlis for their dharnaa and purity as well as service.
As per the Murli, Baba says to remember Shiv and follow Brahma (PBKs also agree with this) not Didi/Dadi. So I am doing that only. Let them do anything, I see my Baba's eye only.

Yes, Baba wants us to do that. But he wants us to follow Brahma in his actions and not to remember Brahma because if we remember Brahma then we will also have to leave this body like him.
If I experienced the spark of God's presence there then I will break all BK bondages. As per Baba says, I need blessing from all (Brahmin Parivar), if one converted into PBK then BKs will curse like anything at that soul to their face for that I need ALMIGHTY POWER PRESENCE. FOR LAST 6 MONTHS I was in greatest dilemma because of this PBKs Advanced Knowledge and ALMIGHTY'S PRESENCE.

When I was given Advanced Knowledge first of all I was in a similar dilemma for many months. Like you, I was also not dissatisfied with the BKs and was with them just because of Baba. I got love and affection from almost all the BKs whom I knew. So, I used to argue a lot with PBKs before doing the Advance Course. I used to narrate Murlis at some BK Gitapathshalas while doing a job. So, I tried to find proofs in the Murlis for whatever PBKs had told me while giving message. And when I found proofs for most of the points, I did the Advance Course and got answers to remaining querries and decided to take the plunge.

Had I remained with the BKs, they would have rewarded me with some posts/recognitions. I could have spent the rest of my life in the comforts that the BK heirarchy offers to the loyal BKs. But Baba was more important for me than all other comforts and recognitions. When I became a PBK, there were very few Gita pathshalas in entire India and no mini-Madhubans except the one housed in the old, dilapidated building at Kampil. And most importantly there was not enough information that is now available through the internet. In fact, I learnt to operate computers and internet many years after becoming a PBK. So, in spite of negligible facilities, there were those strong vibes in Baba's house and persona that if the Brahmin family can be united it is through this Advanced Knowledge.

If the transformation of the world can take place it is through this Advanced Knowledge and that force kept me alive although my boat shook many a times when different parties emerged from among the PBKs. But these storms have only made my commitment towards Baba stronger. I accept that we may not be able to answer all the queries of all the souls to their satisfaction, but at least ShivBaba has given us the freedom to share The Knowledge that he has given us with others, unlike the BK administration which neither wants to answer the valid queries itself nor allows souls to approach Avyakt BapDada.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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