How to recognise that God Father Shiva's Presence in PBK?

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ex-l

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Post27 Feb 2007

arjun wrote:I accept that we may not be able to answer all the queries of all the souls to their satisfaction, but at least ShivBaba has given us the freedom to share The Knowledge that he has given us with others, unlike the BK administration which neither wants to answer the valid queries itself nor allows souls to approach Avyakt BapDada.

Yes, this is interesting. Who gives them the authority to control access in such as manner?Why has God become their servant in such a way rather than we His? I appreciate that it is just not "practical" to allow all and every BK to come and ask BapDada questions about everything that is on their mind

BUT ...

when matter of such serious significance arise, it would appear that they put a wall around access to him either in person or in trance. Has any BK outside of Seniors been allowed to put questions directly to BapDada or been invited to question about the actions of the senior?
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arjun

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Post28 Feb 2007

I appreciate that it is just not "practical" to allow all and every BK to come and ask BapDada questions about everything that is on their mind

I agree with you that it is not practically possible for Avyakt BapDada to answer questions from every BK, but at least some of the important questions can be answered by him. I have seen in many of the old Avyakt Vani compilations, including the one in English that I possess there are some questions and answers at the end of some Avyakt Vanis. But it is not clearly mentioned whether these questions were asked by BKs and the answers were given by Avyakt BapDada or whether these Q&A were carved out of the Avyakt Vani itself. But most of these Q&A pertain to dharana where BKs and PBKs do not have any difference of opinion at all.

The main difference in opinion pertains to the interpretations of the main pictures, like The Cycle, Trimurti, Lakshmi-Narayan, Ladder, Tree etc. When ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) can answer hundreds (or possibly thousands) of questions raised in video-recorded classes, letters, emails, phone calls, etc., that too while being on All India tour continuously since last six to seven years, then there should not be any reason why Avyakt BapDada cannot answer some of the important questions that are arising in the minds of almost every Brahmin soul? Or may be Avyakt BapDada is ready to answer, but his guards/custodians are not allowing souls to get their doubts clarified from BapDada.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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ex-l

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Post28 Feb 2007

arjun wrote:there should not be any reason why Avyakt BapDada cannot answer some of the important questions that are arising in the minds of almost every Brahmin soul?

Or may be Avyakt BapDada is ready to answer, but his guards/custodians are not allowing souls to get their doubts clarified from BapDada.

I agree that there is something spooky and negative about the whole BapDada-BKWSU relationship. How can he sit there without saying anything when the security wing uses their lathis to control the crowds?
    Why is BapDada so welded, so under the control of the Seniors?
    Is he undercontrol or in cahoots with the Seniors?
So many unnanswered questions ... but this simple one of who are the PBKs is a strange NOT to answer.
    Do you think it has been answered privately, in personal or in trance, to the senior BKs?
And, logically, why cannot Avyakt BapDada tour anyway? (I don't buy the "Baba is teaching us to fly to him" line).

truth

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IF BapDada IS ANSWERED THEN ALL PROBLEMS WILL BE SOLVED

Post01 Mar 2007

Yes, I agree with current discussions if BapDada answers then all problems will be solved because all the BK + PBK hears and obeys Avyakt BapDada.

Upto the 90s there was personal meeting / group-wise meeting with BapDada. Now Family is increased, so no Personal meet except Dadi/Senior Brothers for service Opinions.

Dear Bro, there is no Lathi charge at BapDada meet as you posted, I used to go all times this month including going to BapDada meetings. So do not accuse this way.

bansy

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Post01 Mar 2007

why cannot Avyakt BapDada tour

Interesting choice by Shiva with chariots and accessibility. If all Father Shiva does is enter a Chariot and and the Chariot (i.e. Dadi Gulzar) has no recollection of what was said, why, maybe Father Shiva can just as easily enter an 5 year old Chariot (we all know that young children are quite pure and innocent) and all that is done is to move the mouth that words just come out.

Not sure if this should be in the thread or another one.
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arjun

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Post01 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:Do you think it has been answered privately, in personal or in trance, to the senior BKs?

Almost every year, after the official season of Avyakt BapDada is over, there is a meeting between Avyakt BapDada and the senior BKs at Madhuban, Mt. Abu where other BKs are not allowed. Even the transcript of that Avyakt Vani is not released.

But some such transcripts have sometimes reached the PBKs. May be they were unofficially typed on the basis of the versions noted in a diary by some BK and hence contains many mistakes. Moreover, since it is not an official version, its authenticity cannot be proved until the audio or video recording of such meetings is also available.

It may be possible that the Seniors have asked Avyakt BapDada about the PBKs (Shankar Party according to them). But I do not think Avyakt BapDada might have given any direct or clear answer to them.

We can get authentic information about such unofficial meetings only when any of the BKs who have attended such meetings come to this forum and speak up.
bansy wrote:Interesting choice by Shiva with chariots and accessibility. If all Father Shiva does is enter a Chariot and and the Chariot (i.e. Dadi Gulzar) has no recollection of what was said, why, maybe Father Shiva can just as easily enter an 5 year old Chariot (we all know that young children are quite pure and innocent) and all that is done is to move the mouth that words just come out. Not sure if this should be in the thread or another one.

You have raised a valid question regarding the Chariot. Your post is very much related to this thread.
ex-l wrote:And, logically, why cannot Avyakt BapDada tour anyway? (I don't buy the "Baba is teaching us to fly to him" line).

The Avyakt BapDada in limited sense (through Gulzar Dadi) may not be touring, but the Avyakt BapDada in unlimited sense (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has been touring tirelessly all over India since last 6-7 years.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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ex-l

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Post01 Mar 2007

truth wrote:Dear Bro, there is no Lathi charge at BapDada meet as you posted, I used to go all times this month including going to BapDada meetings. So do not accuse this way.

I certainly would not say a "lathi charge" but I would quote the shock that a then leading and highly respect Western BK, one of the BKWSU authors, noted of the use of lathis by BK upon other BK during the Hindi seasion. That BK has since left.

Perhaps someone else can comment whether I am right or wrong. Of course it is a "sign of the times" but many Western BKs, and ex-BK, are a bit shocked by the increasing presence of lathis or even armed guards up at Abu and noticed disquiet amongst the locals.

One of the problem when one starts to amass worldly power and wealth is that it brings envy with it!
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andrey

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Post01 Mar 2007

Dear Brother,
The praise of the super sensual happiness is for the end. It is not the end now. It is said that this happiness is not temporary, it is constant and it becomes a basis for the future stage in the Godlen and silver ages where the soul experiences soul-conciousness. It is for those who have put secret effort and have joined secret connetion with the Father. We don’t experience it now, because we experience the pleasure of the organs. It has been said that at the end we will be entertained even more than in the beginning. Such drishti will be given that souls will fly.

In the beginning people used to gather due to visions, however the presence of Shiva can be proved only later on when he started narrating Murlis from Karachi. There used to be a small sample of heaven. At the end heaven will be in practical. Visions will be with open eyes on the basis of knowledge. Everything seen in visions will be seen in practical.

Anyone used to be able to feel God’s presence in Brahma Baba when he used to be in front of him. Our Father is world benefactor. If he could give a boon for all to feel peace and happiness he would. Why wait for years, looking the suffering and laboring of children in a detached manner. He does not do this. He comes to make us independent kings and give whatever he has. We don't run to any corporeal being for achievement.

Other is a temporary achievement like attraction. Mother is beautiful and sustains children but does not make them independent. We have to reach the soul-conscious stage with practice. If he could give a feeling to all what about those who made effort and received the same as those who were losing their time. He could change anyone’s stage and take all in heaven, but it is not like this. He gives a key that anyone can use, whether he is close or far away. The more the practice the more the success the more the joy that the soul will feel and this becomes fixed for eternity.

Presence or nonpresence cannot be proved. It is a matter of faith in the intellect that the spiritual Father has come in the corporeal Father. Then one can fill himself with whatever attainment one likes. Many looked at Brahma Baba as an ordinary man too, so there is nothing special. If our mind is under our control we should be able to experience whatever we desire at any point of time we wish. It is because we are in the company of the world, which is full of impure, unhappy people, that we remember so we become the same. It is a matter of concentration power of the intellect. We should know the one the Supreme Soul comes in too. The Supreme Soul is above happiness and sorrow, but he comes in the one who becomes the most unhappy and the most happy one, so both fathers combine to benefit children and a mother is in between. Presence can definitely be felt. It can be felt in the atmosphere, seen in the face, in the eyes and in the smile.

It's also true that through the present part there is no success, it’s impure soul and impure body, so we now all await a new role of purity and perfect balance of love and law.
It is also that God has to assume a fierce full form so that we can gain faith, because we wonder where our benefit will come from. Now we don’t have Brahma Baba in practical, so where will our benefit come from? It is because it is an ordinary form; there is nothing special, that people don’t have faith. But Shiva the Supreme Soul is so subtle - when he comes and goes no one knows, even the Chariot.
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arjun

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Post01 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:Perhaps someone else can comment whether I am right or wrong. Of course it is a "sign of the times" but many Western BKs, and ex-BK, are a bit shocked by the increasing presence of lathis or even armed guards up at Abu and noticed disquiet amongst the locals.

Since I have not visited Mount Abu or Taleti (Shantivan) for more than a decade, I cannot comment on the measures that they have taken for security. But as I have already mentioned I came to know that they do have a system of giving different badges to the participants to differentiate between the BKs and those PBKs who may want to sneak in. But I have also heard that they have a team of Brothers who guard the venue of Avyakt BapDada's meeting in BK dress to prevent the entry of PBKs.

But PBKs have definitely seen lathi (sticks) weilding BKs with their own eyes outside the venue of a mega programme of BKs organized in one of the north Indian cities. Some PBKs were kidnapped and taken to secluded place near the venue and beaten very badly with sticks. Some PBKs mothers (including elderly ones) were manhandled by these 'Guard' BKs. A police complaint was lodged with the local police and two PBKs had to obtain medical treatment at the local hospital for the injuries caused to them by the BKs. The incident was covered by one of the newspapers also the next day.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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proy

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Newspaper

Post01 Mar 2007

arjun wrote:A police complaint was lodged with the local police and two PBKs had to obtain medical treatment at the local hospital for the injuries caused to them by the BKs. The incident was covered by one of the newspapers also the next day.

Which newspaper? I would like to look it up on the internet and make copies of it to show to other people. If that is not possible then could you scan the article and any pictures into your computer and upload it to this web site so we can read it? Or you can email it to me as an attachment. Was it in English or Hindi? I have Hindi reading and speaking friends.
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arjun

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Post02 Mar 2007

Dear Proy,

Omshanti. It was a Hindi newspaper. But neither do I have a scanner, nor would I prefer to upload it on this forum because it may start an ugly exchange of allegations and counter allegations. Most of the BK centers have the photographs of the incidents related to the arrest of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit in 1998. They show it to anyone who proposes to/ has become a PBK. If I upload one photo they may upload many photos related to that incident. We are not afraid of those photos being shown, but this would only lead to an increase in mutual mistrust/hatred, which I wish to avoid. We want to unite the world (both inside and outside) and not disintegrate it. We have to learn from the past to improve our future.

I had mentioned about the above incident only to give an information to Brother 'truth' that BKs have used 'lathis' (sticks) against PBKs. Those who have 'mis'used the sticks also know the truth and those who have suffered/tolerated the beatings also know the truth. This information is only meant to act as a deterrant against any future misuse of physical or financial power by anyone and also as to awaken the conscience of such souls, who may be capable of using their good offices/relations to prevent the recurrence of such incidents.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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button slammer

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Re: Most beloved Shiva's presence in Sakar

Post04 Mar 2007

WHEREVER GOD IS THERE I SHOULD BE THERE. NO, I MUST BE THERE.
PBKs will have lot of good advance knowlege (some is very logical). I like The Knowledge. But I need to know if the presence of Shiva's fragrance is in there ... OR ...
    It may be greatest Maya for testing BKs faith in ShivBaba through Brahma.
If I experienced the spark of God's presence there then I will break all BK bondages. As per Baba says, I need blessing from all (Brahmin Parivar), if one converted into PBK then BKs will curse like anything at that soul to their face for that I need ALMIGHTY POWER PRESENCE. FOR LAST 6 MONTHS I was in greatest dilemma because of this PBKs Advanced Knowledge and ALMIGHTY'S PRESENCE.

Revised Sakar Murli dated 12/01/04 published by BKs;

''Children are numberwise. This is knowledge. You have to study this every day. Not to study because of fear is not right. Then it would be said that it is your karmic bondage. ''

Dear truth, please feel that you are indeed blessed and not cursed by any souls here on the forum. No doubt all souls wish you the very best in all aspects of your spiritual endeavours/efforts. My blessing to you is the magic carpet of courage and determination. I know all about dilemmas etc in the drama and empathise with your situation. The situation with Advanced Knowledge at present is that only a trickle of souls are going to do the Advance Course and to meet Baba/Virendra Dev Dixit. The trickle or stream of souls will soon become a flood. It is difficult to study during a flood. My blessing/good wishes is for you to become fearless and to follow the truth in your own heart.
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daviniamaher1

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Re: Most beloved Shiva's presence in Sakar

Post04 Mar 2007

Dear Truth
I hope you can answer my questions, because like your name, they will reflect that truth which many of us try to evade.
Murli points are twisting (some are towards BK, some are towards PBK). Baba's Murli depends on students sitting in front of him. Its like waves in a lake.

Do you not feel that is the magic of the Murli and that is what drove us Shiv in the first place?
I see my Baba's eye only.

Where do you see Baba's eye? Please enlighten as it might be helpful to me.
WHEREVER GOD IS THERE I SHOULD BE THERE. NO, I MUST BE THERE.

Where do you envisage that to be?

Davinia
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arjun

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Post10 Mar 2007

Proy wrote:Has anyone tried to do this in the UK?

A PBK from a foreign country tried it a few months ago. He attended a 4 day BK programme at a local BK Center. He found that nothing has changed since he left them. Only it is more Bhakti and idol worshipping. At the end of Murli reading (with "parts" taken off) BKs were told to end meditation by asking God Shiva to give strength to the now very frail and very sick Dadi Janki.

His first morning there was actually a shock. They offered small bowls of cooked food to the picture of Brahma Baba. He then participated in their Q & A sessions. He was all alone amidst 15 BKs.

Questions/Answers like: if the Supreme Soul enters Gulzar Dadi then why is she not called Brahma? Why is Krishna called first Prince of Satyug? Why is there no Krishna Raj? How come Dadi Janki is called the future Empress of the world when Krishna is only a Prince? He pointed out the Murlis where it says one is not to keep the picture of Brahma, etc. They were very surprised. Two days later (they must have put a call to zonal chief of BKs residing in another country) and he was told that it was Okayed at a later stage as BKs use the picture to remind them that BB was the chosen one to narrate the first Murlis. The picture also helps them in their meditation!

By day 2 he was ostracised. Except for a few BKs the rest treated him as an enemy. Yes they have heard of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit who they say is the Ravan to cause division and break up the Brahmin Family - a loser who leads BKs astray into his own failing cause. For aren't BKs stronger and bigger in numbers compared to Shankar's party? There was no use talking to them about the word Prajapita. They have all been trained that BB is the Prajapita, the Adi Dev, the Alpha and Omega.

On Day 3 they did not even allow him to comment at Q & A. So Day 4 he did not participate in their Q & A.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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ex-l

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Post10 Mar 2007

arjun wrote:Only it is more Bhakti and idol worshipping. At the end of Murli reading (with "parts" taken off) BKs were told to end meditation by asking God Shiva to give strength to the now very frail and very sick Dadi Janki.

His first morning there was actually a shock. They offered small bowls of cooked food to the picture of Brahma Baba. He then participated in their Q & A sessions.

In the first place, that is sick. That is pure Bhakti and has no place and no grounds in Gyan ... why should anyone "pray" to make Dadi Janki better? It is just institutionalizing rank, status and personal important into young BKs at an early stage and I cannot see what grounds from the Murlis they have for doing it.

And if the kids version of karma that the Brahmakumaris teach is true ... ho-ho-ho ...

    a) how can praying to Shiva sort out someone else's Karma or in anyway benefit the one that is praying!?! So what sort of karma is it? Answer; negative or binding Karma taking the soul away from "God".

    b) from a logical point of view, does Shiva not know Dadi Janki and her condition well enough to know or decide what to do himself ... and where does it say anywhere that his wisdom can be swung by the force of x number of BKs wanting something else!?!

    Its a farce :?.
Are the Sisters who decide on such rubbish wiser than God or even Lekhraj Kirpalani now? I don't think so ... may be they are just asking for prayers for their own good because if Janki goes they will have no one else with the same brains and Yoga power to do PR and use for service.

As far as the offering of Bhog to a picture of Lekhraj Kirpalani, that is how it was always done in the West, is it not done in India like that? It reminded me completely of Bhakti; little stainless steel pots with lids, little girlie lacy cloths to cover them, a special tray and cleaning equipment all kept separate. If someone had not done Vaishnavite (or even some Buddhist) Bhakti then they would not know and recognize this BUT it is exactly the same.

    We should explore when it come into fashion and who started it.
For Westerners who had not, they would never know that this was not a Brahmin thing but a Bhakti thing. They would presume that it was a Brahmin thing. That is how we were taught it and that was how they were taught by the Indians, it is exactly the same as a Krishna worshipper thing ... so draw your own conclusions.

As far as the PBK Q and A sessions go ... I think you guys are on a losing streak there and I would give it up. It is a dead give away that you are PBKs and does not work.

It is very, very Indian. A kind of "didactic punditry" that is dishonest in a way because, of course, it is not so much meant to be a genuine question but rather a sort of leaden logical club to beat the one who has to answer them into submission. It is more about showing how stupid and illogical the one who has to answer is.

As a technique, and it is an old technique beloved of pundits and dharma warriors, it has been developed to propose a logical projection that do not necessarily follow. In posh English, it is something like "association fallacy", an "apagogical argument" or "reductio ad absurdum" as a techinique (although I am not 100% sure if those or which is the correct definition). It is basically very crude and bullying, and in the case of the PBKs, I think it is mostly self-defeating and will only make the BK defensive. If nothing else, as this PBK found out, all it does is expose the individual for being a PBK because they all sound the same.

I don't know who or where it comes from, may be from Virendra Dev Dixit himself, but PBKs seem to be trained in "How to mug BKs" with the same questions. Of course, the BKs themselves used to be trained in exactly the same way to mug non-BKs but they have largely improved on their techniques (in the West at least).

It works by pointing to 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... illogical or inconclusive theories in the one who holds them, pushing them entirely back into their fears, ignorance and insecurities; and then offering them a solution on which they can grab a hold of. "a) if this is true, b) if this is true, c) if this is true ... then d) this must true! " Bingo. Which, of course, does not need to be true either.

As I said, the BKs did or do exactly the same thing. I remember it. That was why they used to ask all those question to newcomers, to expose the weakness they could then lean on and offer solutions to. They probably still do in India. In the West now, instead of defeating beliefs, they just dangle carrots of wealth, status and self-importance and the fish jump into their net quicker without an argument.

Did you see that Shiv Ratri post I made? It was all about business and executive status ... I find this practical aspect of the manner in which Gyan is passed on interesting. Its a shame no one else is interest or capable of following the conversation because I would like clarification of it.
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