Who is the God of Gita - Krishna, Ram or Shiva Baba?

In av. Vanis it is often said that "Follow Father"; I have asked this question to many PBKs in mumbai and all are puzzled with this query and they all give different answers; can you please give your views as to 'Which Father' are we supposed to follow:
Shivbap or ... Rambap or ... Brahmabap.
And also how do we Follow the Father.

Dear Shivsena Bhai,
Omshanti. As far as I know, Baba has said that Follow Father means following the Shrimat as enacted by Father Shiv through Brahma (Dada Lekhraj). Father Shiv played the role of a doer (karanhaar) through Brahma Baba and practically showed how to imbibe the virtues and knowledge. He did not care whether others followed Shrimat or not, but he tried to follow the Shrimat. How he followed the Shrimat can be gathered from the various Sakar Murlis, Avyakt Vanis and some BK literature.

You may say that as per Advanced Knowledge 'Brahma' (Lekhraj Kirpalani) cannot be called 'Father' because he played the role of a mother. Although Baba says that the PBKs should listen to the words spoken through Prajapita, but should not follow Prajapita (or Shankar) in actions, but my experience of several years as a PBK and my association with ShivBaba in corporeal form on several occasions says that there are plenty of things to be learnt from Baba (the karaavanhaar or enabler) even in the role of Shankar.

When the role of Vishnu begins then there would be a balance between 'doing' and 'enabling' and then we would be able to follow Father in a better way. But for those who wish to Follow Father even now, there is no dearth of examples in Sakar Murlis, Avyakt Vanis or in the role of Shankar.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Dear PBK Brothers.

In basic knowledge, all BKs know that it was predicted in Murlis that destruction would take place in 1976(which did not happen)and many souls left the Yagya and got married; then when i took Advanced Knowledge in 1993, it was taught to us that the shooting period of dwapuryug started in 1988 and it would last till 1996(8 years) and the Kaliyugi shooting would start from 1997 to 2000(4 years) and then destruction would take place(which again did not happen) and again many souls left The Knowledge and got married; subsequently the whole shooting period dates were changed and date of destruction was withheld.

What i want to indicate is that, if Supreme Soul Shiva is playing the part in Virendra Dev Dixit as bap-teacher-satguru then why did He not speak the truth (words from the mouth of God should be nothing but the truth); or does this not mean that, all along right from 1988 this whole Advanced Knowledge is being given by Krishna's soul, who is in subtle stage(aakari stage) and churning The Knowledge, and as per his churning he is refining and changing the Advanced Knowledge(which surely means that Brahma is bound by drama to complete the shooting of Dwapur and Kaliyug ie. subtle bhakti-marg, and only in the end when Ram and Shiv become combined as ShivBaba, then and only then the true Gita knowledge will come forth from the present Chariot)

Ambigutiy in clarification of pictures:
In The Ladder picture, we were taught that this whole ladder is on Bharat and Ramwali soul is Bharat; but if you look at the picture closely then it also mentions in the first half "Day of Brahma" and in the next half it says "Night of Brahma" ; we all know that Brahma is Krishna's soul and not Ram's soul, so how can Bharat and Ram be the same soul??(also it has never been said in Murlis that Ram is Bharat); logically Bharat and Brahma should be same; also in the same picture raja vikramaditya (Brahma's soul) is seen worshipping shivling at the beginning of Copper Age and also in the end Brahma is seen standing(why should Brahma be shown in The Ladder picture if the whole picture is describing Ram's soul). Also at the end of ladder a beggar is shown with Gita under his head and he is shown begging; now what i do not understand is, who represents this beggar(Ram or Krishna) and that if someone has the whole Gita in his intellect then why should he beg from others and what is he begging(money???) (it has been said in Murlis that "mangne se marna bhala" - meaning that ''it is better to die than to ask'' )

Comments and views of my Brothers are awaited.
OK more later.
shivsena.

Dear Shivsena Bhai,
Omshanti. I wish to know that while refining and changing of knowledge took place even when the Yagya was being run by Shiv through Brahma Baba in corporeal form and refining and changing is taking place even now when the Yagya is being run by Shiv through Shankar, how can you conclude that the refining and changing at the time of Brahma Baba was done by Shiv and the refining and changing that is being done now is being done only by the soul of Krishna? You yourself have accepted in other posts that the Sakar Murlis narrated through Brahma Baba were narrated by Shiv. Refining and changing took place even at that time. Ambiguity was there even at that time. If refining and changing or ambiguity is the criteria, then you should also conclude that the Sakar Murlis narrated from 1951 to 1969 were the versions of the Dada Lekhraj and not Father Shiv.

As regards the reply to the issues raised by you in the above post, I would like to present my views after a little churning/reference and consultation.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun.

If refining and changing or ambiguity is the criteria, then you should also conclude that the Sakar Murlis narrated from 1951 to 1969 were the versions of the Dada Lekhraj and not Father Shiv.

Dear arjun Bhai.

I have never said that refining changing took place in the Murlis when Shivbap was speaking them through' the body of Lekhraj Kirpalani; i have always maintained that Shivbap narrated the whole Godly knowledge in the form of code language through' Lekhraj Kirpalani before 1969; and in Murlis after Murlis he repeated the same mahavakyas several hundred times and indicated about the things that were to happen in the future in the Yagya in Sangamyug itself; and this code was first broken by Ram's soul after 1969, by reading the Murlis extensively, to know his part as no.1 soul; and so likewise, all the 108 rudramala souls also have to read and churn the Murlis intensely to know their part in the drama numberwise (as the title of "gyani-tu-atma will be given only to 108 souls who have realised their part only through churning The Knowledge ie ''swadarshan chakra")

Shivbap never gave any clarification of the mahavakyas of the Murlis before 1969, so there is no question of refining and changing before 1969; He only recited them for the future souls to come and interpret them according to their intellect; thus leaving an open ground for everyone to reach the final 108 numberwise; now it is Krishna's soul who is giving clarification according to his churning(thereby taking a subtle exam of PBKs) and Ram and Shiv have become observers and in the end when Ram and Shiv become combined ShivBaba then only we will know as to who has come nearest to the truth.[as it has been said in the Murlis that "koi toh 99% samaj lete hai, koi 10% bhi nahin samajte hain; pura Gyan toh sirf (Ram)ShivBaba hi samjate hai."].

OK - more later.
shivsena.

In av. Vanis it is often said that "Follow Father"; I have asked this question to many PBKs in mumbai and all are puzzled with this query and they all give different answers; can you please give your views as to 'Which Father' are we supposed to follow:

Shivbap or ... Rambap or ... Brahmabap.

And also how do we Follow the Father.

Omshanti. I have received the following answer from Baba to the above mentioned querry of Shivsena Bhai. I quote, "-------You do not seem to be accepting the versions in the Murlis and the Avyakt Vanis. It has been told in the Avyakt Vanis itself, 'karmon me Brahma ko follow karo aur direction me Bap ko' (i.e. follow Brahma in actions and follow the directions of Father). "

I have received the answer from Baba video email no.15041/06.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Dear PBK Brothers.

Please refer to all the Avaykt messages immediately after Brahma Baba's demise in 1969 (these have been printed in the first book Avaykt Vani); All the messages describe the scenes in the subtle angelic world where ''ShivBaba'' and ''Brahmababa'' are seen as two distinct personalities sitting and chatting together (message no. 7 and 9 ; and then on page 24 and 26 message dated 21-1-69); every message clearly shows ''ShivBaba'' and ''Brahmababa'' as two different personalities in the Subtle Region.

Now my dilemma is : I can understand the body of light of ''Brahmababa'', who became an angel after leaving his body in 1969 ; but i am not able to understand who is this ''ShivBaba'', who is always shown with ''Brahmababa'' in the Subtle Region as a separate personality ; because as per Advanced Knowledge ''ShivBaba'' means "Shivbap in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit" (ie Shiv+Prajapita's body) and so logically ''ShivBaba'' should not be seen in the angelic world as ''Shiv cannot enter in any body in Subtle Region'' and ''Prajapita'' obviously cannot be present in Angelic World. (as Murli says "prajapita Brahma cannot be present in sukshma-vatan") ;

Can any PBK please throw some light on who is this personality "ShivBaba", who is seen in the subtle angelic world?

OK om shanti--shivsena.

There is no benefit in trance.

Omshanti.

May be the 'ShivBaba' seen/contemplated in the Subtle Region is the future perfect/complete form of Prajapita Brahma who is playing his role in the corporeal world.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

May be the 'ShivBaba' seen/contemplated in the Subtle Region is the future perfect/complete form of Prajapita Brahma who is playing his role in the corporeal world.

Dear arjun Bhai.

You mean to say that ''prajapita Brahma" and ''ShivBaba'' are the two sides of the same personality; one is imperfect and the other is perfect; if this is what you are trying to imply, then i must say that i am learning new things in Advanced Knowledge, which i have never heard before.

Would you not like to clarify this with Baba??

shivsena.

Dear Shivsena Bhai,
Omshanti. I would certainly check up with Baba.
But I am also surprised at your reply. When I give replies after verifying from Baba you say that why do you want to be spoonfed everytime. And when I give a reply on my own without consulting Baba, you say that you haven't heard it so far in the Advanced Knowledge and to get it verified from Baba.
Anyways, it is good to discuss.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

The ordinary corporeal perception of time and space does not apply to the scenes of the 'subtle angelic world'.

Here, (in the Subtle Regions) past, present, or future symbolic representations of personalities and events may be viewed.

It is rather like seeing the Kalpa tree in the Subtle Regions, the entire creation may be sequencially and simultaneously viewed and comprehended. Is is not that a Kalpa tree or the corporeal creation actually exists in the Subtle Region, although we can understand it to exist in an intellectual way.

In the same way the personalities of both Brahma Baba and ShivBaba may be viewed simultaneously in the Subtle Regions for the purpose of understanding something of the nature of the Godly versions. It is not as though these personalities are actually present in the Subtle Regions in any kind of astral/angelic body etc.

The Subtle Regions exist during the Confluence Age as a means of communicating (intellectually) with ShivBaba.

Here, (in the Subtle Regions) past, present, or future symbolic representations of personalities and events may be viewed.

The Subtle Regions exist during the Confluence Age as a means of communicating (intellectually) with ShivBaba.

Dear slammer Bhai.

You are very correct in your interpretations of the Subtle Regions.

That is precisely what i wanted to emphasise; that the scenes in the Subtle Regions are the symbolic representations of personalities and events which are going to happen in future, when this whole sakari vatan will become sukshma-vatan and both Rudrashivbaba and 108 rudramala souls will be like Bap-samaam Farishta stage and will communicate, not verbally but intellectually. and the children and the Father will be sanmukh(together) all the time (as there is no limitation of time and space in the Subtle Region); that is when the real auspicious confluence will start and the meeting of Supreme Soul and souls will take place in this subtle sense; (Murli point: Atma paramatma alag rahe bhau kaal ... ; will then be understood in its truest sense; (ShivBaba and 108 souls do not meet personally or intellectually during the shooting period where the Ramshivbaba is in subtle stage and the children are in sakaari stage); this is what i have churned as per the Murli points.

shivsena.

Omshanti. I am reproducing below the comments/replies received from Baba on the issues raised by Shivsena Bhai in this thread. The comments have been received vide Email no. 16093/06. Shivsena Bhai's views have been shown in blue letters while Baba's comments/ replies are in red letters.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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In basic knowledge, all BKs know that it was predicted in Murlis that destruction would take place in 1976 (which did not happen) and many souls left the Yagya and got married
In 1976, the destruction that was mentioned was about the BKIVV, that means within the Brahmin world and not about the destruction of the outside world. But Brahma Baba thought it to be that of the outside world and made an announcement.

it was taught to us that the shooting period of Dwapuryug started in 1988 and it would last till 1996 (8 years) and the Kaliyugi shooting would start from 1997 to 2000 (4 years) and then Destruction would take place (which again did not happen) and again many souls left The Knowledge and got married; subsequently the whole shooting period dates were changed and date of Destruction was withheld.
The shooting period dates that were told before and now do not differ much, but only a difference of 2-3 years between 1998 to 2004. From 1976 until 2000 also, it was a matter of the destruction of the Brahmin world and it has never been regarding the outside world. The destruction does not take place within a second, it takes time. the accurate dates are never told. There is the beginning, middle and end of Destruction too. The year 1998 was the middle when the half destruction takes place, it is a matter of the shooting of the Copper Age.

if Supreme Soul Shiva is playing the part in Veerendra Dev Dixit as bap-teacher-Satguru then why did He not speak the truth (words from the mouth of God should be nothing but the truth);
The grace period also has been there since the beginning. The refining changing will keep on taking place, this too Baba has told.

or does this not mean that, all along right from 1988 this whole Advanced Knowledge is being given by Krishna's soul, who is in subtle stage(aakari stage) and churning The Knowledge, and as per his churning he is refining and changing the Advanced Knowledge
Nothing like that. The subtle stage of Brahma does not take place when in Prajapita, that happens when he enters into Gulzar Dadi. Does it become the seed form stage (beejroopi) of Brahma due to the colour of company of Prajapita or does it become the subtle stage of Brahma?

which surely means that Brahma is bound by drama to complete the shooting of Dwapur and Kaliyug i.e. subtle Bhakti-marg, and only in the end when Ram and Shiv become combined as ShivBaba, then and only then the true Gita knowledge will come forth from the present Chariot)
That is alright. The True Gita will not come out now. Now the shooting of Bhakthi marg is going on. When the living (chaitanya) True Gita comes then the True Gita will also come.

Ambigutiy in clarification of pictures:

In The Ladder picture, we were taught that this whole ladder is on Bharat and Ramwali soul is Bharat; but if you look at the picture closely then it also mentions in the first half "Day of Brahma" and in the next half it says "Night of Brahma"; we all know that Brahma is Krishna's soul and not Ram's soul, so how can Bharat and Ram be the same soul??
There are five Brahmas. There is not just one Brahma. Even Ram's soul is also Brahma.

(also it has never been said in Murlis that Ram is Bharat);
In the Murli dated 12/1/1975, pg 3 end, it has been told that ''Tum kaha sakte ho Ramayan ki katha saari Bharat par he hai. Sirf samajhane ki khir chahiye." (You can say that the entire story of Ramayan is based on Bharat only. Only the knack of explaining is required)

and also in the end Brahma is seen standing (why should Brahma be shown in The Ladder picture if the whole picture is describing Ram's soul).
Does not the child go along with the Father?

Also at the end of ladder a beggar is shown with Gita under his head and he is shown begging; now what I do not understand is, who represents this beggar (Ram or Krishna) and that if someone has the whole Gita in his intellect then why should he beg from others and what is he begging (money???)
Even if the whole of Gita is in the intellect, that one can be a beggar. Only when it is brought into the practical he will be a prince. When the planning of knowledge will be brought into practical then only he will become beggar to prince.

what is he begging (money???) (it has been said in Murlis that "mangne se marna bhala" - meaning that ''it is better to die than to ask'' )
Baba has also told that a beggar should not have anything - money, status, position etc. a beggar only is in need of knowledge. The one whose life becomes a beggary life, Baap comes and makes him the sirtaj (the crown prince). ShivBaba is said to be garibnivaz. He comes and makes the poor into wealthy (sahookar). Through the Godly five year plan, He makes the beggar Bharat into a crown prince. At the end of the iron age Bharat becomes dependent for money and wealth. ShivBaba comes and makes one abundant in money, wealth, love and affection. When he becomes the Emperor of the world, will there be any shortage of those who love? Love itself is known as the food of the soul. Call it love, call it affection, call it Yoga.

which surely means that Brahma is bound by drama to complete the shooting of Dwapur and Kaliyug i.e. subtle Bhakti-marg, and only in the end when Ram and Shiv become combined as ShivBaba, then and only then the true Gita knowledge will come forth from the present Chariot)
That is alright. The True Gita will not come out now. Now the shooting of Bhakthi marg is going on. When the living (chaitanya) True Gita comes then the True Gita will also come.

Dear arjun Bhai.

Many thanks for the answers from Baba;

Baba's above answer sums up what i have been trying to emphasize all along in my posts, that the true Gita Gyan has not yet started and that it is Brahma's soul who has been churning The Knowledge as per his stage (satopradhan to tamopradhan) during the shooting period and has been giving the Advanced Knowledge and answering the queries put forward to him by PBKs.

True Gita knowledge will come only when the 3 murtis representing Brahma-vishnu-shankar will come in person together in the near future (around 2009-2010) and then the auspicious Confluence Age will start.

shivsena.

which surely means that Brahma is bound by drama to complete the shooting of Dwapur and Kaliyug i.e. subtle Bhakti-marg, and only in the end when Ram and Shiv become combined as ShivBaba, then and only then the true Gita knowledge will come forth from the present Chariot)
That is alright. The True Gita will not come out now. Now the shooting of Bhakthi marg is going on. When the living (chaitanya) True Gita comes then the True Gita will also come.

I also think it is nice for Baba to answer in this way, because when the true Gita comes out, there surely cannot be any ambiguity contained within The Knowledge.