PBKs what do you have to hide ?

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Dear BK Sisters and Brothers,

You have now read much material in this forum, why do you not reply to the various issues and queries raised in this forum ?

From whatever the background, forum members are seekers of truth, and if you have the truth, why not share them? Forum members have nothing to hide because we don't fully understand and therefore would prefer BKWSU representatives or officials to come on this forum and explain the greatness of the BKWSU and of, especially, our divine Father Shiva.

Dear sweet soul,

I have couple of simple questions for PBKs. Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit says that we human beings have fallen, i.e. lost our energy and stage of purity because we had relations with many. Now by having relationship with only one we get pure or viceless. And the specific relationship he mentions is of husband and wife. He instigates women folk to have wife and husband relationship with him, physically or mentally. And he says that by having such a relationship with only him alone, they will become pure and viceless.

Now my question is, even in SatYuga and Tretayuga when the world was viceless and each one had relationship with only one partner, how come that we lost our energy and become vicious by the time of dwapuryuga. Does any PBK or Baba has answer to this. And what does the Male folk do to get pure according to the rule of having relationship of husband and wife with one.

And my next question to you all PBKs is as follows. IN the year 1976, Veerendra dev and his followers started to question BKs, asking them where is your Brahma? YOu people asked BK's that when they call themselves as Brahmakumar and Brahmakumaris where is your Father or Prajapita Brahma. Poor BKs were without any answer.

Now I ask you PBKs the same question. I put you the following question.

You call yourself Prajapita Brahma Kumars/Brahma Kumaris. Will you please tell where is your Father Prajapita Brahma? Why do you people not give knowledge about Prajapita? The world is waiting for the Father. Why do youpeople not tell the BKs and the World in general about the Prajapita? WHere is your Prajapita? Are you people Prajapita Brahma-kumars/Brahma-kumaris or Shankar Kumar/Kumaris? Will anyone of you answer?

Thank you.

Your, Anamik.

You call yourself Prajapita Brahma Kumars/Brahma Kumaris. Will you please tell where is your Father Prajapita Brahma? Why do you people not give knowledge about Prajapita? The world is waiting for the Father. WHy do youpeople not tell the BKs and the World in general about the Prajapita? WHere is your Prajapita? Are you people Prajapita Brahma-Kumars/Brahma-Kumaris or Shankar Kumar/Kumaris? Will anyone of you answer?

In English, when someone starts saying "You People", generally it is an insult.

What gets me is that ... have you actualy read any of this forum!?! The discussion, definition and refinement of the understand of who is "Prajapita" is the most central issue.

Likewise the promotion of Virendra Dev Dixit as the current "Prajapita" or the "Brahma" is the most central issue to PBKs.

Thank you for exhibiting the wonderful darna of the Indian BKWSU. I am sure that you are an embarrassment to your center or zone-in-charge. We say, "people in glass houses should not throw stones".

• Can "YOU PEOPLE" in the BKWSU, Vishnu Party or whoever, please tell me who Prajapati God Brahma was and who you think God is this week? ... Instead of throwing stones as the PBKs or the members of this forum.

Thanking you kindly too.

In English, when someone starts saying "You People", generally it is an insult ... What gets me is that ... have you actualy read any of this forum!?! The discussion, definition and refinement of the understand of who is "Prajapita" is the most central issue. Likewise the promotion of Veerendra Dev Dixit as the current "Prajapita" or the "Brahma" is the most central issue to PBKs.

Dear sweet soul,

Instead of showing your fluency in English, I hope you would have answered my question with some patience. I am not fluent in English and its rules.

You have said that PBKs are projecting Veerendra Dev as Prajapita and that it is the central idea. But in practical Virendra Dev Dixit and the followers are projecting Shankar. Why do you people not concentrate more on Prajapita Brahma and clearly state that Veerendra Dev is Prajapita?

Why you people do more praising of Shankar. ShivaBaba has said in Murlis to reveal to the world The Prajapita, through whom He will be revealed to the world. I hope you will react more patiently.

Thanks. Your Anamik.

Now my question is, even in SatYuga and Tretayuga when the world was viceless and each one had relationship with only one partner, how come that we lost our energy and become vicious by the time of dwapuryuga.

The degradation of deity souls begins from the first birth of the Golden Age itself, but the rate of degradation is too slow to be noticed. On the whole during the 1250 years of Golden Age, the deity souls lose 2 celestial degrees, i.e. the soul consciousness decreases very slowly. And during the next 1250 years of Silver Age, the deities lose 6 celestial degres, i.e. the soul consciousness decreases at a slightly faster rate.

Even though the deities have relationship with only one partner, the soul-consciousness decreases because they were also experiencing physical pleasure to some extent. It is only in the Confluence Aged heaven that reproduction takes place through vibrations. In the first birth of Golden Age it takes place through vision and in the later births through oral love. So, when the body becomes involved in the process of reproduction or enjoyment of pleasure, then the energy is bound to decrease.

You call yourself Prajapita Brahma Kumars/Brahma Kumaris. Will you please tell where is your Father Prajapita Brahma? Why do you people not give knowledge about Prajapita? The world is waiting for the Father. WHy do youpeople not tell the BKs and the World in general about the Prajapita? WHere is your Prajapita? Are you people Prajapita Brahma-Kumars/Brahma-Kumaris or Shankar Kumar/Kumaris? Will anyone of you answer?

Brother ex-l has answered your question. I would only add that although we PBKs believe that the personality that plays the part of Shankar and Prajapita is the same, but the time of both the roles is different.

The same personality is Prajapita in the beginning (when ShivBaba sows the seed of knowledge through him) and in the end (when ShivBaba gives the inheritance through him). Since we have not yet completely received the inheritance of the kingship of the world or 100 % peace, purity and happiness, we cannot call him Prajapita now. But, we believe that the personality of Shankar would only get revealed as Prajapita in the end.

As regards your other comment/question I would answer after consulting Baba.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Dear sweet soul.

I am not sweet and I like to be accurate. It is not a question of language, you are using a rhetorical style.

You are not really asking a question (... because it has already been answered many times on this forum). You want to tell us what you think and put down the PBKs. A rhetorical style is typical of the pundits in India but to the West, it is as crude as, say, having a loud argument in a public library. So please tell us what you believe politely. Are you by any chance connection to the Vishnu Party? And most importantly,

a) do you mean Lekraj Kirpalani or some other Prajapita or Prajapati?
b) what do you call the other early mediums, including those in the Golden Circle?
c) why have they been written out of the BK history?

I think you are wrong to say they focus on Shankar. It appears to me, as a third party, that their real concern is ont he one true God which must sure be what the BKs call Shiva.

Dear Brother anamik,
Why are you not content with the present Chariot? "...Was it something that the Father told you?". Can it be only because he does not call himself the Chosen Chariot. There are many who call themselves God and chosen chariots and why do we not believe them?

Brother ex-l has answered your question. I would only add that although we PBKs believe that the personality that plays the part of Shankar and Prajapita is the same, but the time of both the roles is different.

Dear arjun Bhai.
PBKs believe that Shankar and prajapita are the same personality but are you aware that Murlis says that "Vishnu aur Shankar ko prajapita nahin kahenge". Again a contradition between Advanced Knowledge and Shivbap's Murlis. Also in bhakti-marg, Shankar and prajapita are shown as two different personalities and not the same. Can you please expand what is the time period for Shankar's role and what is the time for prajapita's role?

Since we have not yet completely received the inheritance of the kingship of the world or 100 % peace, purity and happiness, we cannot call him Prajapita now.

If we cannot call him prajapita now, then does it not mean that we are also not true PBKs and we are just writing PBK on paper without actually becoming PBKs (Brahmins) in the real sense.

shivsena.

PBKs believe that Shankar and Prajapita are the same personality but are you aware that Murlis says that "Vishnu aur Shankar ko Prajapita nahin kahenge". Again a contradition between Advanced Knowledge and Shivbap's Murlis. Also in Bhakti-marg, Shankar and Prajapita are shown as two different personalities and not the same. Can you please expand what is the time period for Shankar's role and what is the time for Prajapita's role?

Yes, I am aware of this Murli point. But when you can say that the two different parts, i.e. Confluence-Aged Krishna and RamShivbaba belonging to two different souls can be played through the same personality, then why cannot the roles of Prajapita and Shankar be played through the same personality but at different periods of time?

Since I have not heard ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) giving any specific date for Shankar's role and Prajapita's role, I cannot answer that question.

If we cannot call him Prajapita now, then does it not mean that we are also not true PBKs and we are just writing PBK on paper without actually becoming PBKs (Brahmins) in the real sense.

May be 'yes' and may be 'no'.

May be 'yes', because although one may hold whatever title one wishes to hold, but the actions should also be commensurate to it. The title of PBK is not as important as the responsibility that it carries with it.

May be 'no', because we believe that this personality (of Shankar) had played the role of Prajapita/Prajapati in the begninning of the Yagya and is going to get revealed as Prajapita/Prajapati in the end just as you firmly believe that the personality of Shankar is going to get revealed as RamShivbaba in future.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Yes, I am aware of this Murli point. But when you can say that the two different parts, i.e. Confluence-Aged Krishna and RamShivbaba belonging to two different souls can be played through the same personality, then why cannot the roles of Prajapita and Shankar be played through the same personality but at different periods of time?

Dear arjun Bhai.

Your comparison and argument is just not apt. You are arguing for the sake of argument and not for clarity. My perception is very clear, that Krishna's soul in Virendra Dev Dixit becomes Sangamyugi Krishna in the end and Ram's soul becomes like Shiv to become ShivBaba; whereas what you and the PBKs believe is that Ram's soul is prajapita and Shankar at different times. This is against what the Murlis of Shivbap say. i am just saying that the Advanced Knowledge and Murlis of Shivbap contradict each other. So your above comparison is baseless.

shivsena.

My perception is very clear, that Krishna's soul in Veerendra Dev Dixit becomes Sangamyugi Krishna in the end and Ram's soul becomes like Shiv to become ShivBaba.

Shivsena,

as an independent third party who has attempted to show respect to both side of this debate, and with an interest in accuracy alone not status, I am not part of the rivalry between you and the PBKs.

I follow what you say but it does appear that until the period of revelation is complete no one is going to know and so there is not a lot of point in taking any position to firmly.

My questions then to you are two fold;

a) If you want to teach, lead or encourage the BK or PBK family, how do you think you are going to do that? What example can you personally set that will draw them over to your point of view? Perhaps the lesson being given to you is not one of Knowledge but of Darna, i.e. to learn the lessons of sweetness and love. Knowledge by itself is just too cutting and sharp for most individuals, as I have foung out. They look in the mirror and do not like what they see and want to turn away from it or break the mirror.

b) you are obviously an intellligent man. Instead of wasting your breath on individuals that, quite frankly, do not want to know and do not care; would you please consider writing one single paper that defines your terms and encapsulates your ideas in a manner that would be accessible to the majority of BKs and ex-BKs whose minds are not already prejudiced? You might find support for them.

The problem with much of the PBK discussion is that it is so "esoteric", cryptic even, that it is impossible for many to pick up and follow what is going on. Especially, if it is part of an ongoing stone throwing event.

Likewise, you would make efforts to share the wealth of the Murlis you have via the internet to give the rest of a chance to study the primary materials? It is a bit of a one side debate if we do not have those Murlis in front of us.

Why are you not content with the present Chariot? "... Was it something that the Father told you?". Can it be only because he does not call himself the Chosen Chariot. There are many who call themselves God and chosen chariots and why do we not believe them?

Dear Andrey,
The reason is that couple of years back Veerendra Dev Dixit started to tell that role of Brahma has been played, role of Shankar has been played for thirty years, and now a new role is going to be played. How many times we have to change our ShivBaba?
Thanks,
Your,
Anamik.

Dear sweet souls,

I hope some PBK will explain the following Murli points.

(1) Murli dt:26.5.85 page 2 :

Bhakt samajhte hain Bhakti se Bhagwan raji hoga. Bhagwan se milne kii ichha rahati hai. Parantu Wah kiski Bhakti se raji hoga? Jaroor unki he Bhakti karenge. Tab to raji hoga na. TUM Shankar KII Bhakti KARO TO BAAP RAJI KAISE HOGA. Kya Hanuman kii Bhakti karenge to Baap raji hoga? Deedar ho jata hai. Baki milta kuchh bhi nahi.

(In English) Devotees think that God will agree by their devotion. Have desire to meet God. But He will agree by whose devotion? Surely, do His devotion. Then only He will agree, is'nt it. YOU DO DEVOTION OF Shankar, THEN HOW WILL Father AGREE. Will Father agree if you do devotion of Hanuman? You will have his sight. Other than that will get nothing.

(2) Murli dt:8.1.95, In Murli Khand-1, Book Published by PBK's, page no. 243:

Baap to hai he highest Authority aur phir wah Prajapita Brahma bhi highest Authority thahare. Yah Dada hai sabse badi Authority. Shiv aur Prajapita Brahma. Aatmayein hai ShivBaba ke bachhe aur phir Sakar main hum bhai-bahan sab hai Prajapita Brahma ke bachhe. Yah hai sabka Great Great Grandfather.

(In English) Father is by all means highest Authority and then that Prajapita Brahma also stands to be highest Authority. This Dada is highest Authority. Shiv and Prajapita Brahma. Souls are children of ShivBaba and then in Sakar we Brothers and Sisters are all children of Prajapita Brahma. This is everybody's Great Great Grandfather.

Thanks.
Your,
Anamik.

The reason is that couple of years back Veerendra Dev Dixit started to tell that role of Brahma has been played, role of Shankar has been played for thirty years, and now a new role is going to be played. How many times we have to change our ShivBaba?

In one of the discussion CDs ShivBaba through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit has clarified that Father Shiv does not enter into any Chariot except the permanent Chariot (mukarrar rath). As for the rest, it is ShivBaba, i.e. the number one soul (who becomes equal to Shiv) who enters into the other Brahmas or the 108 children through his mind and intellect to do service. So, ShivBaba does not change in the entire Confluence Age. The personality who was instrumental in the beginning as the medium of incorporeal Shiv to give knowledge even to Dada Lekhraj Brahma and Mama Saraswati becomes instrumental in the end again as the medium of incorporeal Shiv and gets revealed as ShivBaba.

(1) Murli dt:26.5.85 page 2 :
Quote:
Bhakt samajhte hain Bhakti se Bhagwan raji hoga. Bhagwan se milne kii ichha rahati hai. Parantu Wah kiski Bhakti se raji hoga? Jaroor unki he Bhakti karenge. Tab to raji hoga na. TUM Shankar KII Bhakti KARO TO BAAP RAJI KAISE HOGA. Kya Hanuman kii Bhakti karenge to Baap raji hoga? Deedar ho jata hai. Baki milta kuchh bhi nahi.

(In English) Devotees think that God will agree by their devotion. Have desire to meet God. But He will agree by whose devotion? Surely, do His devotion. Then only He will agree, is'nt it. YOU DO DEVOTION OF Shankar, THEN HOW WILL Father AGREE. Will Father agree if you do devotion of Hanuman? You will have his sight. Other than that will get nothing.

PBKs do not worship/remember Shankar. They remember Shiv through Shankar/Prajapita Brahma.

(2) Murli dt:8.1.95, In Murli Khand-1, Book Published by PBK's, page no. 243:
Quote:
Baap to hai he highest Authority aur phir wah Prajapita Brahma bhi highest Authority thahare. Yah Dada hai sabse badi Authority. Shiv aur Prajapita Brahma. Aatmayein hai ShivBaba ke bachhe aur phir Sakar main hum Bhai-bahan sab hai Prajapita Brahma ke bachhe. Yah hai sabka Great Great Grandfather.

(In English) Father is by all means highest Authority and then that Prajapita Brahma also stands to be highest Authority. This Dada is highest Authority. Shiv and Prajapita Brahma. Souls are children of ShivBaba and then in Sakar we Brothers and Sisters are all children of Prajapita Brahma. This is everybody's Great Great Grandfather.

I suppose that through the sentence 'This Dada is the highest Authority' and 'this is everybody's Great Great Grandfather' you wish to prove that Dada Lekhraj Brahma is the highest Authority or the Great Great Grandfather. But he is neither of them.

If he was the highest Authority, he would have understood the meaning of the declaration of 1976, but he couldn't and he took it in literal sense and gave it in writing to the then Government of India that the world was going to be destroyed, but that did not happen.

And if Dada Lekhraj was the Great Great Grandfather then he should have been physically present in the entire drama from the beginning to the end, i.e. he should have been an allrounder, whereas his role in this drama and the auspicious Confluence Age gets reduced by nearly 50 years. So how can he be the Great Great Grandfather?

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

I follow what you say but it does appear that until the period of revelation is complete no one is going to know and so there is not a lot of point in taking any position to firmly.

Dear ex-l.
We all are guided by this subtle drama and whether we like it or not, we all are sub-consciously taking up our positions are per our intellect. The basic praja (4,50,000) are limited by their intellect and they have taken their position in the sense that they will only accept bindi Shivbap in body of Lekhraj Kirpalani. Similarly the advance praja (16,000) will only accept Shivbap in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit. They will go no further than that .But the kings (108) will go beyond and will prove Ram's soul as ShivBaba and Krishna's soul as prajapita in the body of Virendra Dev Dixit . Hence they will take a high jump and go ahead of Krishna to come in 108 (as Krishna is not included in 108).

My questions then to you are two fold; [list]a) If you want to teach, lead or encourage the BK or PBK family, how do you think you are going to do that? What example can you personally set that will draw them over to your point of view? Perhaps the lesson being given to you is not one of Knowledge but of Darna, i.e. to learn the lessons of sweetness and love. Knowledge by itself is just too cutting and sharp for most individuals, as I have foung out. They look in the mirror and do not like what they see and want to turn away from it or break the mirror.

Yes, my first love was knowledge in its fullest and truest sense and not Dharna (which i feel is for the ranis and not the kings). For 2500 years, the kings were on the battle field fighting out with swords to protect and enhance their kingdoms, and the queens were in the palaces resting in peace. So in this Confluence Age, i would rather be a king and fight it out on the subtle battlefield, than be a soul who inculcates sweetness and love. The weaker souls will not like to look at the bitter truth and hence as you said they would like to turn away from it.
shivsena.

that Father Shiv does not enter into any Chariot except the permanent Chariot (mukarrar rath).

Dear Brother,
So does that mean that Shiva did not enter in Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani) to speak the Murli? Please clarify.