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ex-l

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Post30 Apr 2007

anamik wrote:Which is the Chariot employed or fixed (Mukarrar Rath) by GodFather Shiv for His Divine acts? Or which is the Personality (Hasti) of Supreme Soul Shiv? Or Who is The Bhageerath (Lucky Chariot)?

Anamik,

these points have been raised, discussed and chewed over many times on this Forum. What is the point you would like to make?

Some questions that have not yet been answered are the questions I have raised in the History forum, as illustrated by original Brahma-kumari publications.
    Why was there no mention of Shiva in the BKWSU Knowledge between 1939 and at least 1949 and why was Lekhraj Kirpalani said to be 'Prajapati God Brahma' and the 'Gita Inventer'?
    How and when did the concept of Shiva actually enter the BKWS philosophy?
    Why have the BKWSU falsified Lekhraj Kirpalani's age and date of birth?
I am very glad to have a serious BK on the Forum to work out the answers to these questions.

anamik

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Post30 Apr 2007

arjun wrote:I suppose that through the sentence 'This Dada is the highest Authority' and 'this is everybody's Great Great Grandfather' you wish to prove that Dada Lekhraj Brahma is the highest Authority or the Great Great Grandfather. But he is neither of them.

Dear sweet soul,

I have written few letters to many PBK centres. In one of the discussion CD (of Pune) one of the PBK raised the topic of my letter. At that time Baba took my letter and started reading. When he started to explain the above point,

[(In English) Father is by all means highest Authority and then that Prajapita Brahma also stands to be highest Authority. This Dada is highest Authority. Shiv and Prajapita Brahma. Souls are children of ShivBaba and then in Sakar we Brothers and Sisters are all children of Prajapita Brahma. This is everybody's Great Great Grandfather.],

He read first sentence of the point where it says ShivBaba is the highest Authority and then next says Prajapita is the highst Authority. And he concluded saying that there cannot be two highest Authorities, therefore ShivBaba and Prajajpita are one and the same personality in practical. Then he read the next above quoted sentence, where it clealry says that Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) is the highest Authority.

After reading this, Baba veerendra Dev Dixit stopped explaining the Murli point abruplty and closed the letter and changed the topic. There are many such points where it clearly indicated that Dada Lekharaj is the actual Prajapita and Mukarrar (Fixed) Rath (Chariot). It is up to you whether to think over these points or be blind to them. Thanks.

Yours, Anamik.
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arjun

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Post30 Apr 2007

Anamik wrote:I have written few letters to many PBK centres. In one of the discussion CD (of Pune) one of the PBK raised the topic of my letter. At that time Baba took my letter and started reading.

Can you please quote the Discussion CD number?
There are many such points where it clearly indicated that Dada Lekharaj is the actual Prajapita and Mukarrar (Fixed) Rath (Chariot). It is up to you whether to think over these points or be blind to them.

Such sentences in the Murlis prove that Dada Lekhraj thought himself to be the God of Gita, whereas it is not true. If he were to be the permanent Chariot, he should have been with us till the end, but he departed long back before most BKs took alokik birth.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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andrey

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Post30 Apr 2007

Dear Brother,

In the beginning you used to say that the fixed Chariot will come in the future, now you say he is Dada Lekraj. Which idea you sustain?

The end of the role of Shankar and the revealing of a third personality does not mean that we should cut away Shankar /as it has been said in the Murli/. It is said that it is Trimurti Shiva, so three personalities are needed and they paly part together still from the beginning, till the end, but get revealed - Brahma - Shankar - Vishnu /as it is said in the Murli that first is establishems then destruction, then sustenance/
Baap he pawan banane ke liye Shrimat dete hain, mujhe Yaad karo. Parantu wah Nirakar hai to jaroor Sakar main aakar Shrimat denge. Baap kahate hain - Yah mera shareer bhi Mukarrar hai. Yah badli ho naheen sakta. Yah bhi noondh hai.

(In English) Father Himself gives Shrimat to make viceless, remember Me. But He is Nirakar so definetely will come in Sakar and give Shrimat. Father says - This my body is also fixed. It cannot be changed. It is also recorded (in drama).

4) Murli dt. 22-2-92, Murli khand 1 - Page no. 292 :
Quote: Abi tum jaanate ho ki ShivBaba Brahma ke sivay kisi bhi Hasti Main aa naheen sakta.ParamPita ParmAtma Brahma dwara he aakar manushya shrushti rachate hain, jab jab Bharat bahut dukhi aur brashtachari ho jata hai, ParamPita ParamAtma is Hasti dwara he samjha rahe hain.Is Bhageerath bigar ShivBaba bhi kuch kar naheen sakate. Koi to chahiye na. Yah Hasti ShivBaba kii hai. Yah na ho to tum ShivBaba se Varsa pa naheen sakate. Gaya bhi jata hai Prajapita Brahma athwa Trimurti Brahma. Dev Dev Mahadev kahate hain. In teeno main bhi Brahma ka naam ooncha kyun? Brahma to yahaan he hai, jiske rath main aatey hain. Vishnu aur Shankar ko to Devta kahatey hain.

If he is not in Sakar, how will we receive Shrimat and become viceless or will this task remain unfulfilled?

"Fixed Chariot" here may mean that the temporary Chariot is fixed for Brahma Baba and cannot be anyone else. We know everything in the drama is fixed. It does not mean Brahma Baba is the fixed Chariot later it is told Brahma is the one in whom he enters the fixed Chariot is also Brahma - Trimurti Brahma - in the Trimurti Shankar is also there as Brahma and from them he is Prajapita because can the three be Prajapita and for him it is said Dev, Dev, Mahadev. ShivBaba cannot do anything without this lucky Chariot, so now it is gone, does it mean ShivBaba is helpless.

We receive the inheritance through Brahma means Dada surely plays a part after he leaves the body through some other body through which he cooperates to ShivBaba and we receive the inheritance through him. We know He open the gates of heaven. Someone is needed. It is said that this man is of ShivBaba it is not said he is ShivBaba. If this one is not there we cannot have the inheritance - so he is not here now - does it mean we will not have the inheritance form ShivBaba?
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john

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Post30 Apr 2007

anamik wrote: Where it clealry says that Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) is the highest Authority. After reading this, Baba veerendra Dev Dixit stopped explaining the Murli point abruplty and closed the letter and changed the topic. There are many such points where it clearly indicated that Dada Lekharaj is the actual Prajapita and Mukarrar (Fixed) Rath (Chariot). It is up to you whether to think over these points or be blind to them. Thanks..

Anamik

Where does it say Dada Lekhraj is the only Chariot?

If it says just "Brahma", then it can be for another soul because it says, "whoever Shiva enters should be called Brahma". Has any Sakar Murli ever named Dada Lekhraj?

anamik

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Post03 May 2007

arjun wrote:Such sentences in the Murlis prove that Dada Lekhraj thought himself to be the God of Gita, whereas it is not true. If he were to be the permanent Chariot, he should have been with us till the end, but he departed long back before most BKs took alokik birth.

Dear sweet soul,

What is the problem if Dada Lekhraj left his body? You accept Veerendra Dev Dixit as the Mukarrar Rath of ShivBaba and at the same time you say that actually Supreme Soul Shiva started His work through Sevakram, which was Veerendra Dev Dixit's previous birth. It seems you people have no problem in accepting two births of the soul of Prajapita Brahma in the Sangam Yuga, as long as it is of Sevakram as Prajapita. But you people have problem in accepting Dada Lekharaj having next Birth in Sangam Yuga as Prajapita. I think your view is biased.

In the beginning of the Yagya, lots of people had Sakshatkars (holy sightings) of Dada Lekharaj. It was Dada Lekhraj's name maligned in papers. It was Dada Lekhraj behind whom lots of Kanya (ladies) and Mothers fled. It was through Dada Lekhraj that a model of Heaven was created in Karachi Sanghatana. It was Dada Lekhraj who took the responsibility of the Yagya. And, finally, it was Dada Lekhraj through whom Supreme Soul Shiv spoke the Mahavakyas, or Murli, and The Supreme Soul Shiv has taken the responsibilty of the words and actions of Dada Lekhraj Brahma only and no one else as is said in Murli.

It is said in Murli that Prajapita is both your Mother and Father. And also it is said that Gita is the Mother and Father of all and, again, in India Ram and Krishna are not considered as two diferent souls but diferrent births of the same soul. So considering all these points and many other points stating Dada Lekhraj as Mukarrar Rath or Prajapita or Great Great GrandFather or Bhageerath (Lucky Chariot) or Gita, I feel that Dada Lekhraj's soul is the one who will play the part of Prajapita. Although he left his first body as it was temporary, but in the next Birth after he (Dada Lekharaj) left his body in Jan 1969, He will be revealed to the world as Prajapita and ShivBaba will give inheritance to all through Him.

Thanks.
Your,
Anamik.

shivsena

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Post03 May 2007

anamik wrote:I feel that Dada Lekharaj's soul is the one who will play the part of Prajapita. Although he left his first body as it was temporary, but in the next Birth after he (Dada Lekhraj) left his body in Jan 1969 He will be revealed to the world as Prajapita and ShivBaba will give inheritance to all through Him.

Dear anamik.

If you are saying that Dada Lekhraj (Krishna's soul) will be revealed as Prajapita to the world after leaving his body in 1969, then why cannot you tell us through which body he is going to be revealed? Tell this to the world openly. Why are you being so secretive about it?

shivsena.
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john

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Post03 May 2007

anamik wrote:In the beginning of the Yagya lots of people had Sakshatkars (holy sightings) of Dada Lekharaj, it was Dada Lekharaj's name maligned in papers, it was Dada Lekharaj behind whom lots of Kanya(ladies) and Mothers fled, it was through Dada Lekharaj that a model of Heaven created in Karachi Sanghatana, it was Dada Lekharaj who took the responsibility of the Yagya, and finally it was Dada Lekharaj through whom Supreme Soul Shiv spoke the Mahavakyas or Murli and The Supreme Soul Shiv has taken the responsibilty of the words and actions of Dada Lekharaj Brahma only and no one else as is said in Murli.

Anamik

Were you there in the beginning? Can you confirm any of this yourself or are you just repeating what you have been told? Have you read any of the early documentation of the Yagya that has come up on this forum?

Are you listening or just telling?
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ex-l

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Post03 May 2007

I agree with both the posters above that you raise such an important issue, Anamik, that it cannot be ignored.

What do you know about the reincarnation of Lekhraj Kirpalani and is this an official view of the BKWSU now as you are a BK?


I agree that this whole issue of "fixed" and "temporary" chariots is the weakest and most frustrating part of PBK philosophy. How can "fixed" not be "fixed"? "Appointed" might be a better word in English if it is true because, of course, it was not fixed.

Anamik, it appears that you have a previous 'history' with the PBKs. I know there are all sort of grudges between BKs, PBKs, Vishnu Parties and others. I am not interested in that. Please speak to those of us that are seeking the truth without pre-conceptions. And, yes, please present your original sources and evidence. Especially ...

    when did Shiva actually enter?
    • when did the Brahma-kumaris realize it was Shiva that had entered and,
    • how and when did they revise the Knolwedge to reflect this?
Thank you. (My bet is that Anamik just ignores me as he seems to have an axe to grind with the PBKs).
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arjun

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Post03 May 2007

Anamik wrote:What is the problem if Dada Lekhraj left his body? You accept Veerendra Dev Dixit as the Mukarrar Rath of ShivBaba and at the same time you say that actually Supreme Soul Shiva started His work through Sevakram, which was Veerendra Dev Dixit's previous birth. It seems you people have no problem in accepting two births of the soul of Prajapita Brahma in the Sangam Yuga, as long as it is of Sevakram as Prajapita. But you people have problem in accepting Dada Lekharaj having next Birth in Sangam Yuga as Prajapita. I think your view is biased.

Dear Brother,
Omshanti. First of all, like other members, I would like to know if the theory of Dada Lekhraj's reincarnation being presented by you is the official version of BKs or your personal opinion? If it is your personal opinion then when, where and by what name and form has Dada Lekhraj taken rebirth?

Secondly, there is a difference between Sevakram taking rebirth and Dada Lekhraj taking rebirth. Sevakram left the Yagya in the early years when The Knowledge was in its nascent stage. As ex-l has proved to a certain extent that the name of Shiv was also not mentioned in any of the literature. So, the spiritual efforts (as per Shrima) made by Sevakram was very less when compared to what Dada Lekhraj might have achieved when he left his body in 1969. If the BK version of Yagya history is to be believed, Dada Lekhraj had practiced purity/celibacy from the beginning of the Yagya till his death. And he also taught others to become pure. ShivBaba kept telling through him continuously that although sanyasis are celibate, they are not completely pure because they are born through sex-lust. So, after practicing purity for many decades, would Dada Lekhraj desire to be reborn through sex-lust?

Since Sevakram had not acquired complete Godly knowledge and had not made complete spiritual efforts, he had to take rebirth to settle his karmic accounts and to acquire complete knowledge.
In the beginning of the Yagya, lots of people had Sakshatkars (holy sightings) of Dada Lekharaj. It was Dada Lekhraj's name maligned in papers. It was Dada Lekhraj behind whom lots of Kanya (ladies) and Mothers fled. It was through Dada Lekhraj that a model of Heaven was created in Karachi Sanghatana. It was Dada Lekhraj who took the responsibility of the Yagya. And, finally, it was Dada Lekhraj through whom Supreme Soul Shiv spoke the Mahavakyas, or Murli, and The Supreme Soul Shiv has taken the responsibilty of the words and actions of Dada Lekhraj Brahma only and no one else as is said in Murli.

It may be true that people had divine visions of Dada Lekhraj in the beginning because he was to sustain them as their spiritual mother for a long time in the beginning.

As regards Dada Lekhraj's name getting maligned in papers, that was limited to a small area and to a small population. But Baba Virendra Dev Dixit's name has been maligned by the BKs and ex-PBKs all over the world to a great extent and would be maligned even more by them as well as the outside world in future. So, who faces more defamation Lekhraj Kirpalani or Baba Virendra Dev Dixit?

As regards model of heaven being created, it is not yet been completely proved (through historical documents/witness accounts) as to how long the Yagya was controlled by a soul other than Dada Lekhraj and when did Dada Lekhraj actually take over, although as per Murlis it is gathered that Dada Lekhraj became the controller of the Yagya only around 1947/48.

As regards Lekhraj Kirpalani taking responsibility of the Yagya is concerned, he took up that responsibility when the Yagya was in its pure stage, but (ShivBaba through) Baba Virendra Dev Dixit has been taking care of the Yagya (PBKs) since 1976, when the world in general and the Yagya in particular has become more degraded.

As regards Murlis being spoken through Lekhraj Kirpalani, it is certainly true, but the meanings of the Murlis were neither clarified during his life time nor after his demise. So, ShivBaba had to change His medium to give clarfication of the Murlis spoken through Lekhraj Kirpalani.

As regards ShivBaba taking the responsibility of words spoken through Brahma is concerned, it is not necessary that Dada Lekhraj is the lone Brahma. Brahma can be many but Prajapita is one. ShivBaba has said in one of the Murlis that in whomsoever He enters would have to be named as Brahma. So, if He is entering into Baba Virendra Dev Dixit (as PBKs believe) then ShivBaba has to take responsibility for the words spoken through him as well.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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arjun

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Post03 May 2007

Dear ex-l,

Omshanti. You have reqested at some places on this forum for the documentation of the Yagya history as per the Advanced Knowledge (given to the PBKs). Although it has been given in the form of Trimurti Advance Course on this forum and also in brief by me and other PBKs like Sister Aimee and Bro. Andrey I will try to prepare a pointwise brief history and get it verified by Baba. But since we do not generally quote lokik names (except the popular names like Dada Lekhraj and Om Radhey Mama) I can get the matter verified if I am not quoting lokik names. But if you wish I will provide the names as a footnote on my behalf for easy understanding under information to Baba.

This may take a few days. Meanwhile if any other PBK wants to do that they are free to do so.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

shivsena

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Post04 May 2007

ex-l wrote:Yes, the one danger I would point out to Shivsena is one typical of scientists and the like who think that understanding of everything is possible. To understand God entirely, we would have to be greater than God. To understand the 108 and the mechanisms by which they are created, we would have to be greater than them too.

Dear ex-l,

It has been said in Murlis that "one who understands the whole knowledge will get the full inheritance". So it is very imperative that one understands the mahavakyas of Shivbap (as per one's intellect) to get closer to God. The more you understand the words of Shivbap the more closer you are to Him and that is why Shivbap uses the word 'numberwise' repeatedly. i agree with you that it is not possible to understand God fully, but if one does not want to make any effort, then why embark on this spiritual journey at all and fruitless debate of discussing this Godly knowledge? Does it suffice to prove that basic knowledge and Advanced Knowledge is wrong and is it not necessary to also understand what is right and what is wrong, and what is the truth in its fullest sense?

To understand the 108 and the mechanisms by which they are created, is the first step towards towards being in the 108 rosary beads. The aim of all BKs and PBKs is to come in 108 . So it is very imperative that one understands the mechanisms of reaching there too; "as your aim, so your purusharth" (both should match each other). If one just aims high, but his effort does not match his aim, then one can never achieve his objective.

shivsena.
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ex-l

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Post04 May 2007

shivsena wrote:To understand the 108 and the mechanisms by which they are created, is the first step towards towards being in the 108 rosary beads.[/color]

So say we accept that, what is the second step?

I have no problem is accepting that the full knowledge has not been released/clarfied. I know it has not.

On the topic of "What have PBKs have to hide", non-PBKs have not been given a clear enough breakdown of names and timeframes to understand the fineries of what you ae saying. I find some of the PBK stuff a little bit too convoluted and desperate to prove EVERYTHING - when some by definition is not provable. And, yes, I find that some of Virendra Dev Dixit's answers go off at a slight tangent from the question that was asked just like the Dadis did.

Personally, I am tired of this concept that "God tests us by being a trickster" but is actually the Ocean of Truth in disguise. I would prefer a straight talking God.
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john

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Post04 May 2007

ex-l wrote:Personally, I am tired of this concept that "God tests us by being a trickster" but is actually the Ocean of Truth in disguise. I would prefer a straight talking God.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Is there not enough confusion in the world without a God adding more to it. It just doesn't make sense.
And, yes, I find that some of Veerendra Dev Dixit's answers go off at a slight tangent from the question that was asked just like the Dadis did.

I must admit some of the answers do sound like they are coming from someone who doesn't know the answer. Considering ShivaBaba is the Ocean of Knowledge, some of the answers sound like they've come out of a Christmas cracker.

shivsena

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Post04 May 2007

ex-l wrote:So say we accept that, what is the second step?

The first step, second step, third step, fourth step ... is to understand The Knowledge given by Shivbap in the Murlis, step by step, by reading the Murlis 5-7 times and trying to understand the deeper meaning of the mahavakyas and what are the roles of Ram and Krishna. I see it this way;

Shivbap (zero) gave all The Knowledge in the coded language from 1965 to 1969. Now in November 1969, when Ram's soul comes in the Yagya. He starts reading the Murlis and since he is no. 1 soul, he has to realise his part first. From 1970 to 1973, Rambap churns the Murlis very deeply and he realises that he has to attain 100% nirakari stage like Shivbap and be revealed to the world as ShivBaba (Ram and Shiv becoming equal) in future. [Since no. 1 is nearest to Shivbap(zero) and their combination of zero+one becomes parampita(Shiv)paramatma(Ram)].

When Ram realises his part, he goes into aakari stage and Krishna's soul who is in aakari stage, takes charge of the body of Virendra Dev Dixit. From then onwards, it is Krishna who is playing the whole game in the BKs through Dadi Gulzar and in the PBKs through Virendra Dev Dixit; ''sara khel(Sangamyugi drama) bharat-(Krishna) ke upar hai''.

This will go on till Ram attains his 100% nirakari stage and then Krishna (banni-wife) will then by under full control of Ram's soul, and will stop going to Mt Abu. Then the true Brahmins 108 souls will be created by Ramshivbaba through the mouth of Brahma (Krishna) and Ram-Rajya will be established.

This is the way i have understood the roles of Ram and Krishna after doing intensive study of Murlis and Vanis for the last 7 years. The whole gist of the Murlis is to understand the roles of Ram and Krishna and not Shivbap (bindi), as bindibap, who has never taken a body for 5000 years can never be understood. (For Ram's soul bindishivbap is Baba and for us, the no. 1 soul Ram in nirakari stage, is ShivBaba). We all souls have to relate with no. 1 soul and not zero.

shivsena.
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