Food for thought for all PBKs

for Prajapita Brahma Kumaris (Advance Party), or those interested in becoming PBKs, to discuss AIVV matters in an open, non-judgemental manner.
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shivsena

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Food for thought for all PBKs

Post22 Apr 2007

Dear administrator Bhai.

A sincere request : please do not amalgamate this new thread with any other thread, as in this thread i am going to post important Murli points and logical facts which will prove beyond any doubt that the Advanced Knowledge is Jhooti Gita knowledge (given by Krishna) which is establishing jhoot khand and the true Gita Gyan will come forth only when Ram becomes 100% incorporeal (like Shivbap) in the near future.

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Dear PBK Brothers.

Advanced Knowledge teaches us that Ram is Sangamyugi Krishna / Sangamyugi Narayan but i have been repeatedly emphasizing that it is Krishna's soul who will be revealed as Sangamyugi Krishna (through Virendra Dev Dixit) and not Ram (who will be revealed as ShivBaba once He attains the 100% incorporeal stage). The proof is given below for all PBKs to see logically.

In the beginning of the Yagya in 1937, Shivbap gave visions of Krishna / Narayan / Vishnu to Dada Lekhraj (Krishna's soul) and the explanations of these visions was given by Shivbap through' Sevakram (Ram's soul). Ram's soul did not receive any such visions from Shivbap, who in fact used Ram's body to explain to Krishna the meaning of the visions. So Ram+Shiv became 'Alaf' and Krishna became 'Beh' (baccha). So according to the Murli statement, "adi so anth", Krishna's soul should become Sangamyugi Krishna and Narayan in the end and Ram's soul combined with Shivbap should become 'Alaf' ShivBaba in the end (since Shiv, Ram and Krishna are in the same body of Virendra Dev Dixit).

If Advanced Knowledge claims that Ram becomes Sangamyugi Krishna and Narayan, then Ram should have been given the visions in the beginning in 1937 and not Krishna. Shivbap would not give visions of Krishna/Narayan to Krishna's soul in the beginning and then revealed Ram's soul as Sangamyugi Krishna in the end. This would amount to cheating and off-tracking the students, which is not the job of Shivbap, but can be the job of mayavi Krishna (as per drama) who has invented the Advanced Knowledge (jhooti Gita) from 1989 to mislead the PBKs (16108) and keep them away from Ramshivbaba. Krishna is well-known in bhakti-marg to play politics (cheating) between the kauravs and Pandavs. Only 108 souls of rudramala (kings) will have the power to see through this game of mayavi Krishna (who is not in 108), on the basis of their intensive research of Murlis and Avyakt Vani points, while the rest of PBKs (16000), who are not studying the Murlis and are just nodding their heads to what Krishna says in cds will fail in this final exam (to discriminate between the roles of Ram and Krishna) and will end up as royal praja.

shivsena.
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ex-l

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Re: Food for thought for all PBKs.

Post22 Apr 2007

shivsena wrote:In the beginning of the Yagya in 1937, Shivbap gave visions of Krishna / Narayan / Vishnu to Dada Lekhraj (Krishna's soul) and the explanations of these visions was given by Shivbap through' Sevakram (Ram's soul).

You still have not answered my questions.
    • Why are you talking about 1937, when according to Om Rahde in 1939 Lekhraj Kirpalani retired and started satsang in 1932?
    • Why was Narain Shewakram, the sleeping business partner, a member of the Anti Om Mandli Bhaibund Committee and how as he giving any type of instructions to Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Om Mandli from that position? (i.e. was Shivbap's place to criticize and curtain the behavior of the community?)
    • What are the dates by which he left the Om Mandli to join the Bhaibunds, and when if ever did he come back in to the Mandli (my feeling is that he did not and this should be explained because we are talking of a period between 1938 to 1941 when he allegedly died)?
    • Who were the Golden Circle and the other early mediums, what part did he have with them?
    • Where are the dated and number "Divine Decrees" that the Prajapati Brahma-kumaris of that period produced?
The first three are fairly central to the veracity of any further deductions that you care to make? The topic thread, which you have not commented upon, is here; Sevak Ram, Piu Vanis and the history of Om Mandli.

When did it all start? ... 1932 with the statsangs started ... 1935 with Om Mandli started ... the foundig of the committee ... specifics please. Where did you get this 1937 figure from?

I am sitting here with the early records we have to date. I accept that possible they were already hiding and falsifying details but on the other hand, they were close enough to know. Would you be willing to see how many archives of newspapers, letters and court records still exist. I can give you some leads but it has to be someone in India who goes and does it.

Would you be willing to put in some practical investigative research instead?
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shivsena

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Re: Food for thought for all PBKs.

Post23 Apr 2007

ex-l wrote: When did it all start? ... 1932 with the statsangs started ... 1935 with Om Mandli started ... the foundig of the committee ... specifics please. Where did you get this 1937 figure from?

I have been keeping track of your investigative work and i congratulate you for doing a commendable job. The date of 1936-37 is the commonly known date for all the BKs and PBKs and so i quoted the date which is known to all. I know that the exact history of the early years of the Yagya is still a mystery and will be known only in the end. My personal feeling is that all the secrets are hidden in the first 10 years of the Yagya and when this is revealed the whole Godly knowledge will have to be seen in different light (than what it is being presently seen by BKs and PBKs ).
ex-l wrote:Would you be willing to put in some practical investigative research instead?

I think each soul has a different job to do and i feel that you have been made nimit (as per drama) to do this investigative job. As for me, i feel that my aim at present is to do research on Murlis to prove that Advanced Knowledge is subtle shooting of Bhakti marg (jhooti Gita) and my whole thought process and energy is concentrated to undermine this fact to the PBKs.

OK - shivsena.
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ex-l

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Re: Food for thought for all PBKs.

Post23 Apr 2007

shivsena wrote:I have been keeping track of your investigative work and I congratulate you for doing a commendable job. The date of 1936-37 is the commonly known date for all the BKs and PBKs

And it has been widely repeated throughout academia too whilst it appears to be a much later fabrication. Without wishing to causing offence, I cannot see the point of building an edifice (an elaborate conceptual structure), on artifice (false or insincere behavior). The foundations of The Knowledge are unreal. An illusion sustained by both BKs and PBKs.

Why the BKWSU have chosen to invent a history and what the significance or insignificance of the given 36/37 figure is when there is no mention of Shiva by 1949 - are as good questions as what is the reality, and as are why did "Shiva in Virendra Dev Dixit not know about these things?". This is why I mention this, as it might strengthen your theory that the souls in or around Virendra Dev Dixit are tricksters too.
shivsena wrote:I think each soul has a different job to do and I feel that you have been made nimit (as per drama) to do this investigative job; as for me, I feel that my aim at present is to do research on Murlis to prove that Advanced Knowledge is subtle shooting of Bhakti marg (jhooti Gita) and my whole thought process and energy is concentrated to undermine this fact to the PBKs.

It is now a job for someone in India closer to the primary materials. I can give them some leads and directions. I wonder if it will make any impact on the BKWSU whose Juggernaut is quite happily rollng through the streets of India pulling in the money and devotion of its bhagats? I am convinced that the pundits and priests within the BKs will be as willing to lie and cover up in order to sustain their status as they have always been.

But I think I have done enough of a job to break through this particular shell of illusion (no doubt there will be more), and make it irresponsible and disrespectful for any BK or PBK to go about promoting the mythic history and false foundations.

Do you mean 'undermine' or 'underline' your Bhakti marg theory?
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arjun

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Post23 Apr 2007

Shivsena wrote:This would amount to cheating and off-tracking the students, which is not the job of Shivbap, but can be the job of mayavi Krishna (as per drama) who has invented the Advanced Knowledge (jhooti Gita) from 1989 to mislead the PBKs (16108) and keep them away from Ramshivbaba.

What is the basis for using the year 1989 as the year from which the soul of Krishna started giving knowledge through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit?

Does your above statement mean that Shiv played a part through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit from 1969 to 1989? If He was/is not present in Baba Virendra Dev Dixit since 1969, then where is the Supreme Father Shiv from 1969 till date? As we all know He cannot return to the Soul World without completing His task. So, where is He since 1969? Is He in Gulzar Dadi? Is He in Jagdamba (Kamala Devi Dixit)? Is He in any other PBK? Who was giving knowledge through the soul of Ram to the PBKs from 196-1989?
If Advanced Knowledge claims that Ram becomes Sangamyugi Krishna and Narayan, then Ram should have been given the visions in the beginning in 1937 and not Krishna. Shivbap would not give visions of Krishna/Narayan to Krishna's soul in the beginning and then revealed Ram's soul as Sangamyugi Krishna in the end.

Does having the divine vision of any particular deity mean that the soul having divine vision would become that deity? In the path of worship many souls have the divine vision of Ram, Krishna, Hanuman, Ganesh, etc. Does it mean that all of them would get revealed as those deities in the Confluence Age? In the beginning of the Yagya many BKs had the divine vision of Krishna. Does that mean that everyone would become Krishna?

Is having a divine vision a pre-requisite to become that deity? In hundreds of Murlis ShivBaba has said that one should not depend or waste time on divine visions. In umpteen Murlis Baba has said that those who had divine visions in the beginning did not continue in the path of knowledge and ran away. So, does that mean that if the soul of Ram did not have the divine vision of Ram or Narayan in the beginning of the Yagya, he cannot become the Confluence-Aged Ram or Narayan?
So Ram+Shiv became 'Alaf' and Krishna became 'Beh' (baccha). So according to the Murli statement, "adi so anth", Krishna's soul should become Sangamyugi Krishna and Narayan in the end and Ram's soul combined with Shivbap should become 'Alaf' ShivBaba in the end (since Shiv, Ram and Krishna are in the same body of Veerendra Dev Dixit).

If the soul of Krishna (Dada Lekhraj) who does not have his own body (like angels and ghosts) and plays a part through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit, is to get revealed in the end as Confluence-Aged Krishna, then angels would have been worshipped in India. But it is not the case. Here corporeal deities are worshipped, whereas people of other religions believe in angels. It is the personality through whom Shiv gets revealed that gets worshipped in the form of Confluence-Aged Ram/Narayan/Krishna and not the soul of Krishna that enters into it.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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shivsena

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Post23 Apr 2007

arjun wrote: It is the personality through whom Shiv gets revealed that gets worshipped in the form of Confluence-Aged Ram/Narayan/Krishna and not the soul of Krishna that enters into it.

Dear arjun Bhai.

You can very well go on playing with words and sentences as per your whims and fancies; but i believe only the Murlis of Shivbap which describes Ram directly as "ShivBaba", ''Bhagwan", ''Ishwar", ''parampita paramatma'' and i see no further than that. If you want to believe in what Advanced Knowledge says, then it is your wish and predicament. I have nothing to do with what Krishna says in cassettes or cds. My buddhi is always towards Ram and Shiv combined as ShivBaba but you insist on seeing them separately. I have more faith in Murlis of Shivbap and you have more faith in Advanced Knowledge (the foundation of which is also the Murlis of Shivbap). Our interpretation of the Murlis differs, so let us go on different paths until one of us realises that he is on the wrong path.

Just as the BKs do not have the eye to see beyond Shivbap in the body of Krishna, the PBKs too do not have the eye to see beyond Shivbap in the body of Ram and hence the degradation of both BK world and PBK world is going on simultaneously. Only when Ram and Shiv become combined then the true light of knowledge will come forth and will dispel all the darkness from the minds of BKs and PBKs and the world in general.

OK Om Shanti
shivsena.
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andrey

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Post23 Apr 2007

Dear Brother shivsena,
If you say that the soul of Krishna is playing the part of the Sangamyugi Krishna then we know that the soul of Krishna will also be playing the role of the satyugi Krishna. That means he will have to play Krishna two times and become his own Father which does not seem correct.

If you say that the soul of Krishna is establishing the false world then, we know for this happening in the Confluence Age there will be coresponding happening in the broad drama. We know in the broad drama the false world is created by human gurus after Copper Age when duality starts. Before this it used to be the true world, still there used to be someone who used to remain firm on the path of truth till the end and sustained the deity religion, as we know from the Murli that does not dissapear completely. So this one who sustains the true world, even in the false world, should be there even now in the Confluence Age. So who will be this personality?
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john

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Re: Food for thought for all PBKs.

Post23 Apr 2007

ex-l wrote:And it has been widely repeated throughout academia too whilst it appears to be a much later fabrication. Without wishing to causing offence, I cannot see the point of building an edifice (an elaborate conceptual structure), on artifice (false or insincere behavior). The foundations of The Knowledge are unreal. An illusion sustained by both BKs and PBKs.

Why the BKWSU have chosen to invent a history and what the significance or insignificance of the given 36/37 figure is when there is no mention of Shiva by 1949 - are as good questions as what is the reality, and as are why did "Shiva in Veerendra Dev Dixit not know about these things?". This is why I mention this, as it might strengthen your theory that the souls in or around Veerendra Dev Dixit are tricksters too.

I think ex-l is right.

If some of PBK teachings are based on a 'cracking of clues' based on BK knowledge of Yagya history which may turn out to be false then how can that be a solid foundation?

Accurate answers to this should be obtained from the source. As much as we want to believe and have allegiances surely the quest for truth must come first?
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andrey

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Post24 Apr 2007

Accurate answers to this should be obtained from the source

Which source?
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shivsena

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Re: Food for thought for all PBKs.

Post24 Apr 2007

ex-l wrote: And it has been widely repeated throughout academia too whilst it appears to be a much later fabrication. Without wishing to causing offence, I cannot see the point of building an edifice (an elaborate conceptual structure), on artifice (false or insincere behavior). The foundations of The Knowledge are unreal. An illusion sustained by both BKs and PBKs.

Dear ex-l.

You are very right. Anything built on a false foundation is definitely false, so the basic knowledge and Advanced Knowledge will be proved false in the end. But the Murlis of Shivbap from June 1965 to Jan 1969 are the only authentic source of information which contains the final truth in coded form and this will be unraveled when Ram becomes like Shiv (100% incorporeal stage) in the near future. This is what i believe, and those who come nearest to the answer of the supreme Teacher ShivBaba will then be placed numberwise.

ex-l wrote:Do you mean 'undermine' or 'underline' your Bhakti marg theory?

By 'undermine' I mean to say "unearth", "expose", "bring to light" the important fact to the PBKs that Advanced Knowledge is the subtle shooting of bhakti-marg and not the true Gita of ShivBaba.

shivsena.
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john

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Post24 Apr 2007

andrey wrote:
Accurate answers to this should be obtained from the source
Which source?
Tomato?
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ex-l

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Post24 Apr 2007

andrey wrote:Which source?

Andrey, I would say it was obvious that John meant the sources of the original documentation held by the BKWSU and eslewhere. Your scratched record is tiresome. Yes, we know which position you take. It is not service to attempt to drum it into others head by repetition. What are your original sources?
shivsena wrote:You are very right. Anything built on a false foundation is definitely false, so the basic knowledge and Advanced Knowledge will be proved false in the end. But the Murlis of Shivbap from June 1965 to Jan 1969 are the only authentic source of information which contains the final truth in coded form and this will be unraveled when Ram becomes like Shiv (100% incorporeal stage) in the near future. This is what I believe, and those who come nearest to the answer of the supreme Teacher ShivBaba will then be placed numberwise

I am very glad to have found common ground with you, and I have no objection to your observations of Bhakti and "nodding heads" etc. I very much hope one day that you can make your archive of Murlis public. I, and I think others, would probably even be willing to pay someone to scan or type them up. (A problem if they are not in English for us though ... ).

I would broaden your 10 years though. I am still waiting for anyone to show me WHEN Shiva was named at the instrument behind Gyan, how and when they gave up on "Prajapati God Brahma".

I find the silence on this point stunning. We have 100s of BKs, ex-BK and PBKs each of whom knows other circles of BKs, all of whom have invested years of their lives into this. We even have official BKWSUs reading the forum and yet ... nothing.

All the nodding heads, official books and websites are sitting saying, "Yes, Yes ... Shiva Baba ... 1936" etc and not one can produce any evidence to counter the evidence that states the Brahma-kumaris thought Lekhraj Kirpalani was God and did not mention Shiva at all. And they still dedicate their lives to that leadership that has corrupted the teachings and turned it into their business empire.
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arjun

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Post24 Apr 2007

Dear Shivsena Bhai,

Omshanti. It is sad to note that you have chosen not to answer any of my logical questions, while you keep on posing questions upon questions to PBKs, which are duly answered by PBKs as well as ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). Despite more than 250 discussion CDs (containing thousands of Q&A) till date, you say that PBKs are blindly nodding their heads. But when we ask question regarding your views you become silent?Does you silence not mean that we should blindly accept whatever you write?

In one of your posts you wrote that PBKs are not bold enough to ask worthwhile questions. But I have observed that in many of the discussion CDs PBKs (who have no access to this site or to you) have asked questions that you have raised in this forum. I have posted one such Q&A in the concerned thread and will be posting another such Q&A shortly. It is because of lack of enough human resources that all the Q&A available in various discussion CDs are not being produced in printed form. Since most of the members of this forum do not know Hindi, they may believe your statements to be true. But, the fact is otherwise.

The questions that I have asked have nothing to do with Advanced Knowledge. These questions could have been asked by any BK or non-PBK.

You said you believe only in Sakar Murlis. In the Sakar Murlis it has been mentioned many times that the birth (i.e. entry) of Shiv into the corporeal medium cannot be predicted. It is only the birth (i.e. entry) of human souls like Krishna can be predicted. When you are saying that Shiv will get revealed through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit in 2009/2010, then are you predicting the divine birth of God Shiv or a human soul? Can human beings predict the divine birth of God?

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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shivsena

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Post26 Apr 2007

Extracts of ShivBaba's Murli (via Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) - as narrated to the PBKs.
VCD* No.287, Audio Cassette No.771, Dated 5.9.05, Nilanga ,
Clarification of Murli dated 14.11.66 + 15.11.66 ,
Ref. No.VCD*.

... Now at the end of the Iron Age, the condition has become such that - "Jhoothai lena, jhoothai dena, jhoothai bhojan, jhooth chabena." There is falsehood in everything like eating-drinking, speaking, living, eating, and walking. When the condition becomes like this, then the Father comes and ends this land of untruth (jhooth khand) and establishes the land of truth (sachkhand).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear arjun Bhai and other PBK Brothers.

Which is this world which Baba is describing in the above VCD*, is it the outside world, is it the BK world, or is it the PBK world? Even if it is the state of the outside world that is being described, then the shooting of it has to take place in the BK world and the PBK seed world? If anything happens in the broad drama, then the seed of that lies in the PBK seed world(logically speaking), so the PBK world has to become rotten and false first, then these vibrations are transferred to the BK world, and then to the outside world; and only when all 3 worlds reach the point of no redemption, then only Ram ShivBaba (Shiv+Ram combined) will come in the near future to redeem all 3 worlds. (jhoot khand se sach khand banega).

[The unlimited Father speaks in unlimited terms and only his unlimited children (108) will understand his unlimited language].

shivsena.
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arjun

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Post27 Apr 2007

Shivsena wrote:If anything happens in the broad drama, then the seed of that lies in the PBK seed world(logically speaking), so the PBK world has to become rotten and false first, then these vibrations are transferred to the BK world, and then to the outside world; and only when all 3 worlds reach the point of no redemption, then only Ram ShivBaba (Shiv+Ram combined) will come in the near future to redeem all 3 worlds. (jhoot khand se sach khand banega).

This is not a new statement and has been stated in various clarification Murlis narrated by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit). But you believe that ShivBaba is absent now and would come in future, but I (and possibly many other PBKs) believe that ShivBaba is indeed present, but is playing the role of sakshi (detached spectator). He says that he lets the sins grow until the pot of sins becomes full. In the end when the role of Dharmaraj or Satguru begins then nobody would be spared. He does not establish the land of truth (sachkhand) after the destruction of the entire world, but in the midst of the land of untruth (jhoothkhand). That is why He says that He gives the inheritance of the new world amidst the old world.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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