Why do PBKs just keep on quoting Murlis??

John Bhai, thanks for the clarification.
Yes, the references in the pre-1976 Murlis and Avyakt Vanis about the probable destruction in 1976 were about the subtle destruction that was to begin from 1976 and not the gross destruction which was wrongly construed by Brahma Baba and the then BKs.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Would it be fair for me to say that you're not really on this forum to discuss, but to do service?

Haven't we been discussing? I wouldn't choose to indulge in a discussion that I consider will do harm. What is the definition of "service". There will be some souls, almost certainly disaffected BKs, who will recognise this knowledge - or to put it another way, will say - wow this stuff is really cool, where can I learn more? If those souls come across this knowledge due to something on this website - good. If anyone else finds it interesting then good. I do not wish to try and convince anyone that this knowledge is correct.

Also really the BKs say listen to us and no one else, you as a PBK are taking this to the extreme, which may be the right thing to do, but outsiders have noted what a good brainwashing technique this is

Hopefully it is a good "brainwashing" technique. Dobhiman is good at washing.

Two things which crop up a lot in Sakar Murlis is to teach, Shiva says do service and teach. There are quotes like "If you cannot explain, then it is understood that you don't really understand Gyan"

PBKs have been accused of giving Murli quotes out of context in order to show BKs don't follow Shrimat. It seems to me that most of Shrimat is like Shrek (many layers - my kids watch Shrek often enough for me to know that Ogres (Shrek) are like onions - many layers). After all, there are ten religions and if ShivBaba is going to unite them, there really must be something in it for everyone - just one "correct understanding" but not just one understanding (but 9). I agree one should be able to explain - but what and to whom (to oneself - to others - which others?)

So your point seems well made.

actually I think it's only your churning/understanding of the idea and you're trying to put it across as Shrimat. Not necessarily completely wrong , but maybe a distortion.

Your point is what I have been trying to get at all along. Everything anyone says apart from ShivBaba is a distortion of the highest instruction. So what could possibly be the reason for listening to anyone else? Only that there are no sanskars of avayabachari Bhakti - no recognition that there can be one highest truth. Such a soul will not wish to accept the opinion of one but will give validity to the opinion of many.

I hope that I have not given the impression that anything I have said is Shrimat. I wonder that even when Shrimat is quoted from a Murli - on this site or elsewhere - is it still Shrimat? The context in which it was spoken has been altered. I believe you get real Shrimat from the Murli class direct from the mouth of Baba preferably by sitting in front of him - or at least on a video. Audio only and written are less (that's official Shrimat by the way ). Otherwise, the Shrimat may not be so "shri".

Jim do you read the Sakar Murlis at all?

Unclarified sakars - not any more. The ones I have are from the 2000ish onwards and are so chopped around that they don't make much sense - even if you know (or think you know) the meaning behind the words. This was explained to me by a BK senior as being the result of Lekhraj Kirpalani not speaking good Hindi! I think the activities of the fine Brothers of the Madhuban editing suite is a more plausible reason.

Jim

Question first ; what are the 10 given religions?

There will be some souls, almost certainly disaffected BKs, who will recognise this knowledge - or to put it another way, will say - wow this stuff is really cool, where can I learn more? If those souls come across this knowledge due to something on this website - good. If anyone else finds it interesting then good. I do not wish to try and convince anyone that this knowledge is correct.

If I may add from the wings [ because this is not my stage ] what is useful and interesting about a forum like this, rather than *just* another website, is that one does not just see " The Knowledge [tm] " - or in the case of the BKWSU, " The PR " - but one sees and has a chance to interact with the representative's Dharna, their inculcation of virtues.

At the end of the day, " The Knowledge [tm] " is actually worth very little if it translates into hardheadedness, insensitivity, disrespect or bigotry. The same is true of *ANY* knowledge or philosophy. What proves the value and the source is the transformation of the individual and the manner in which they carry themselves and relate to others. The issue of Murli points having been used in the past like sticks to beat the heads of others, not so much on this Forum but the xBKChat Forum, is that it shows disrespect and insensitivity of others.

How many times did we read someone saying, " I am sorry, I don't think I understood your question, can you be more specific ... " ?

None.

How many times did we have someone launch into some completely abstract Murli point or endless recital of Gyan?

We lost count!

A question or criticism was taken to be stupidity or an insult to be responded to by even more Murli points. I will spell it out for those that have a tendency to do so ... basically by doing so you are doing two things ;

a) saying " you are ignorant and know nothing, I am wise and know everything. Listen to this ".
b) you are demonstrating the manner in which you are treating your own inner self. That is to say, you are externalising the internal dynamics that are going on within your mind.

The first is what BKs put down as a " Bhakti Sanskar ". It is punditry, evangelism, zealotry.

The second suggests to me that you are endless repeating and beating your own head to try and shut up the doubts and questions The Knowledge brings up, plugging holes in your faith. And when you get so good at it, you try to beat others over the head and shut them up - with Gyan - trying to plug the sound of their doubts and questions.

Neither works. Other individuals will just walk away thinking you are insensitive; and one day your inner/higher self will either fight back and win - or die on you. You will have some kind of crisis or challenge that you will not be able to overcome by your own will. You will break and open up and afterwards be a softer, more gentle and genuine human being.

Being a BK, PBK or ex-BK does not exclude you from the mechanics of being an internally successful human being - and funnily enough, I do not think that the BKs actually teach their students that. Or at least did not when I was around them. They wanted their stundets to be " microphones ". One way transmitters. To me, bullet point pundits on one hand or external rumbling steamrollers on the other. [ I'd much rather be shot quickly myself than steamrollered over for ages, you know the type of Gyani that I mean ].

Being mentally attacked makes other individuals close down and become defensive.

Sometimes a simple method such as asking question, listening and being genuine concerned can teach so much more and earn respect. After the respect is naturally earned, then the other individuals will come back and ask you," so how did you become like this? What made you change ? "
I don't know PBKs but what I am hearing of the example Virendra Dev Dixit gives is that it is very much more in the soft, gentle, respectful manner.

Unclarified sakars - not any more. The ones I have are from the 2000ish onwards and are so chopped around that they don't make much sense - even if you know (or think you know) the meaning behind the words. This was explained to me by a BK senior as being the result of Lekhraj Kirpalani not speaking good Hindi! I think the activities of the fine Brothers of the Madhuban editing suite is a more plausible reason.

Ha! Let me just highlight that!

It must become quite pathetic ... out come all the dates and predications, out comes all the non-politically correct stuff that might offend Shudras or liberal Westerners ... out comes all the stuff that might offended the Sanyasis ... out comes all the stuff that contradicts what the Dadis are up to ... What is left!?!

To me, when reading or hearing the old Sakar Murlis it used to be quite clear when Shiva was talking or when Brahma chipped in with his point of view. They were long and had quite a clear pattern. This chopping up of information so that it become incoherent, historical revision, is quite typical of dictatorial regimes too!

A question or criticism was taken to be stupidity or an insult to be responded to by even more Murli points.

There was an incident on ex-BK chat where a PBK posted a question/doubt/something needing clarification. He was immediately pounced on by several PBKs browbeating, with replies such as ' how can you say this and call yourself a PBK!' 'you should be ashamed' type of thing.
You could almost feel the stuttering in the post of the poor PBK soul when he answered back.

There was an incident on ex-BK chat where a PBK posted a question/doubt/something needing clarification. He was immediately pounced on by several PBKs browbeating, with replies such as ' how can you say this and call yourself a PBK!' 'you should be ashamed' type of thing. You could almost feel the stuttering in the post of the poor PBK soul when he answered back.

Dear John

I don't recall this - maybe you can point it out in the ex-BK Chat archive http://ex.brahmakumaris.info/xbkchat/index.html. Although may be difficult because I don't think it is searchable.

Dear John Bhai,
Omshanti. I don't remember the exact incident on the xbkchat, but if it has happened it is regrettable and I am sorry on behalf of the PBKs for that kind of a behaviour. And I sincerely hope that such a behaviour would not be repeated.

In one of the recent Discussion CDs, a PBK Brother (say X) narrated to Baba an incident where a PBK Brother (say Y) had written a letter to the local BK center and the language of that letter was found to be objectionable by the fellow PBKs and in the local gathering most of the PBKs scolded that PBK (Y) for writing such a letter. But this PBK (X) was the only one to support him on this issue. So this PBK (X) was asking Baba if it was right on the part of other PBKs to publicly scold PBK (Y) on this issue. Baba replied saying that when Father Shiv Himself has come as an obedient servant then how can children scold each other. I cannot recollect the exact words of Baba but this is the essence of His reply.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

There was an incident on ex-BK chat where a PBK posted a question/doubt/something needing clarification. He was immediately pounced on by several PBKs browbeating, with replies such as ' how can you say this and call yourself a PBK!' 'you should be ashamed' type of thing. You could almost feel the stuttering in the post of the poor PBK soul when he answered back.

I don't recall this - maybe you can point it out when the ex-BK Chat archive appears.

The archives are up, with smilies temporarily rendered as text, but otherwise with avatars as of old: http://ex.brahmakumaris.info/xbkchat/

for your pleasure and edification.

Our sysop measures the success of his site in megabytes of traffic (well one of his measures), so for his sake my advice is:

Click early, click often. Yellow-laughing smilley (not blue!)

The archives are up; http://ex.brahmakumaris.info/xbkchat/ for your pleasure and edification.

Dear Joel,

Sorry my edit beat you by one minute

This was one reply

Divine Brother PBK sumit.

I do not understand that--- you call yourself a PBK and still doubt in the Chariot of God----it is like saying that some person "xyz" is my lokik Father but i still have doubts ie i am not sure whether he is really my Father or not!!!!!

If you write PBK in front of your name, then please don't doubt the Father and if you doubt then please do not write PBK.

ok--- Om Shanti.

The thread is ; http://tinyurl.com/lxxgp

In one of the recent Discussion CDs, a PBK Brother (say X) narrated to Baba an incident where a PBK Brother (say Y) had written a letter to the local BK center and the language of that letter was found to be objectionable by the fellow PBKs and in the local gathering most of the PBKs scolded that PBK (Y) for writing such a letter. But this PBK (X) was the only one to support him on this issue. So this PBK (X) was asking Baba if it was right on the part of other PBKs to publicly scold PBK (Y) on this issue. Baba replied saying that when Father Shiv Himself has come as an obedient servant then how can children scold each other. I cannot recollect the exact words of Baba but this is the essence of His reply.

Thanks for giving this example. I for one don't see raising a doubt or question as a sign of disloyalty, but as a means to a deeper understanding.

This was one reply... The thread is...l

OK thanks. Unfortunately the poster is given only as 'guest' so we don't know who it was.

I for one don't see raising a doubt or question as a sign of disloyalty, but as a means to a deeper understanding.

ShivBaba through the body of Shankar (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has said in many discussion cds that the PBKs put two kinds of questions in the discussion classes. One kind of questions are the ones which are asked just to satisfy one's thirst for knowledge or to get any doubt clarified, but there are many such PBKs also who deliberately ask such questions so as to cause embarrassment to Baba, thinking that Baba may not be able to answer my question. These questions are asked to challenge the authority of Baba. But in spite of understanding their intention Baba still answers such questions.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun.