Truth of BK philosophy (soul, God, Drama) and history

for measuring opinion on matters relating to their BKWSU experiences
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Are Seniors convinced of the truth of their philosophy (soul, God, Drama) and their history?

In my opinion, the majority of Seniors think it is a lie.
4
13%
In my opinion, a few Seniors think it is a lie.
4
13%
In my opinion, some Seniors know some of it is a lie.
13
43%
Some of them want to ask some questions but don't dare or want to think about it.
5
17%
They believe it is all true.
4
13%
 
Total votes : 30

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tinydot

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Truth of BK philosophy (soul, God, Drama) and history

Post23 Sep 2007

Just to check what folks think of their Seniors.
jannisder wrote:Plato could see problems with this system. ( as you see what happens at this moment) The Guardians would know that system they used to create social order was a lie, However, if the Guardians themselves were convinced of the truth of the lie, the system would be totally successful.
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ex-l

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Post23 Sep 2007

'Are' or 'were'? Pre-1969 or Post-1976?
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tinydot

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Post23 Sep 2007

ex-l wrote:'Are' or 'were'? Pre-1969 or Post-1976?

I think it should be "Are" to mean their present position. How do I change this? cannot edit ...
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bkdimok

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Post09 Oct 2007

IMHO this poll is not correct. Question is: Are Seniors convinced of the truth of their philosophy (soul, God, Drama) and their history? But there is no opportunity to answer for example
    1. Yes, I think they are or
    2. I think some of them are convinced
Choice can be made only beetwen different variants of "they think it is lie".
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ex-l

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Post09 Oct 2007

In previous topics we discovered that books published by the BKWSU did not tell the truth. That the history had clearly be falsified. Of course, we also saw with the often repeated false claims about likes of Dadi Janki being "the most stable mind" in the world.

Issues arose from the original Murlis where it was said the Chariot was 60 years old but the older books said Lekhraj Kirpalani was 54 or younger raising questions. And then there is the most difficult issue of why there was no mention of Shiva before 1949 - 1950-ish. All the old material refers to Prajapati God Brahma and the Brahm. No mention of Shiva.

There also seems to have been a lot of whitewashing and removing of details, e.g. the role of The Golden Circle etc. New BK get to hear nothing about these points. So would you call the "corporate" version of the history a cover up or a lie, or what?

What option would you suggest?
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alladin

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mysteries for initiates.

Post09 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote: New BK get to hear nothing about these points

And even if they did, they are programmed to turn a blind eye. SS say that, "Baba will tell us more later, you 're unripe to know the whole truth. Intellect is still too narrow, impure and stone like. Later, you know, once the third eye has REALLY opened with Yoga, you will grasp all the exoteric truths! Go sit in Baba's room some more, give donations and a big helping hand in karma Yoga in the meantime! You will get there one day, through sacrifice and keeping the mouth shut." Ah, I am thinking about the mafia, again!! :cry:

This programming functions well enough to keep most dirt under the carpet, not allowing the boat to rock. It is based on the technique of shaming and diminishing people, telling them that they cannot understand because inferior and disabled. This stops all questions about lies and inconsistencies, even before they arise. A good control and prevention system they must have copied from the corporate world and politicians.
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joel

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Re: mysteries for initiates.

Post10 Oct 2007

alladin wrote: And even if they did, they are programmed to turn a blind eye. SS say that "Baba will tell us more later, you 're unripe to know the whole truth. Intellect is still too narrow, impure and stone like. Later, you know, once the third eye has REALLY opened with Yoga, you will grasp all the exoteric truths! Go sit in Baba's room some more, give donations and a big helping hand in karma Yoga in the meantime! You will get there one day, through sacrifice and keeping the mouth shut." Ahi, I am thinking about the mafia, again!! :cry:

This programming functions well enough to keep most dirt under the carpet, not allowing the boat to rockl. It is based on the technique of shaming and diminishing people, telling them that they cannot understand because inferior and disabled. This stops all questions about lies and inconsistencies, even before they arise. A good control and prevention system they must have copied from the corporate world and politicians.

Alladin, you've captured the language and tone of BK-speak for the faithful.

As I understand it, the argument for the deception is that the senior BKs are like parents, which shouldn't be burdening "the children" with conflict and complexity. Except that most people following the BKs are adults.

There is a judgment: these mothers should not hear such things, to speak about that would be spreading garbage, negativity. Benefit comes from building up their faith.

I think this aspect of a privileged group of insiders within a larger group is characteristic of nearly all organizations.
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bkdimok

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Post10 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote:There also seems to have been a lot of whitewashing and removing of details, e.g. the role of The Golden Circle etc. New BK get to hear nothing about these points.
1. So would you call the "corporate" version of the history a cover up or a lie, or what?
2.What option would you suggest?

1. Om Shanti. IMHO, all of this is covering up the truth. Of course, sometimes somebody lies to others also but, in the main, I think it is just covering up. Nevertheless, the only "leg" of religion in Kali Yuga is honesty. So it is not OK if new BKs are kept out of having full information (it means that they are being manipulated). So, of course, teachers must have answers for all questions. Or at least they must have the honesty to say, "I don't know" (especially if they, indeed, don't know).

But there is a some kind of cult of Superiority of the Seniors in the BKWSU. And there is attachment to the result also. Senior Instruments think, "If I say I don't know - they won't listen me any more ... they won't come to class ... Baba will be disappointed in me ... better I say something ...". The other side is that many Seniors do not have answers for questions like, "why were there predictions of Destruction by BB but we all are still here?" or "why was BB was considered to be God before 1949?" etc. So they and their motivation can be understood. And they are not demons as it may seem reading some topics. There is nothing black or white in this world now - everything is grey.

2. There also can be such variants of answer in this poll:
    1) Yes, I think they are convinced
    2) I think some of them prefer not to think of that
    3) I think some of them want to ask some questions, but don't dare
joel wrote:I think this aspect of a privileged group of insiders within a larger group is characteristic of nearly all organizations.

Yes, but some Seniors are TOO high from ordinary BKs. I don't mean the Dadis but some Didis. IMHO, the Dadis have their right on superiority because they don't need it at all. Some Didis are not SO pure, pride can and is coming in.

Nevertheless the main cause of all these tricks with truth, history etc is that Seniors don't have correct answers on this questions or have no time to answer (Dadis), or think that it is not nesessary or don't want to think of answer. But it doesn't mean that all these questions don't have correct answers. Time will come and everybody will be satisfied with truth because honesty is the only "leg" of religion in the present yuga. I hope it will be done before New Year.

With regards, Shankar
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paulkershaw

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Post10 Oct 2007

bkdimok wrote: There also can be such variants of answer in this poll:
1) Yes, I think they are convinced
2) I think some of them prefer not to think of that
3) I think some of them want to ask some questions, but don't dare.


or perhaps even
    4) they've been living in their own 'truth' (replace that with any other word you wish to choose) for so long now that they don't even know whats truth, whats right or whats wrong.
After all, if their world (read:- palace/home/room/car/food/money/travel/adulation etc) was taken away from them where would some of them go to, back to the family they renounced eons ago?

Don't think I'd let go of it either, the world is a tough place to live in for many, especially someone who may be elderly and has no other skills but being able to sit in meditation and thinking about some point of light ... 24/7, 365.2 days of the year.
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ex-l

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Post10 Oct 2007

bkdimok wrote:Yes, but some Seniors are TOO high from ordinary BKs. I don't mean the Dadis but some Didis.

If Shrimat is "no human gurus", then that is what Shrimat is. Ultimately, it is the Dadis and Dadas that are responsible for the current personality cult which they benefit from. One unspoken rule of which appears to be "holding on to the Guddhi for as long as possible". I am sorry but I think they are somewhere between 'highly over-rated' and being a bunch of crooks. Honestly. Especially if what they have stolen away and keep hidden from other earnest seekers ... is the truth.

Card carrying BKs might get off on "Playing at Kings and Queens" under the guise it is "royal" behavior. Deifying qualities that are quite normal We all know of some BK that LOVE being a subject to some Dadi or another. It might be human nature to want to submit to others and even beneficial for "the tribe" but, personally, I find it hard not just to see it as a "landgrab".

This issue of them being "sword to secrecy" and complicit in revising the history (decades of untruths) is sufficient to sink them in my opinion. And to underline that with a refusal to comment in public and then to suppress free speech casts the final vote. This issue of fear/inhibition is an important one to raise as it has been stated before there are politics and tensions within the Seniors we are not fully aware of.

paulkershaw raises as issue I was just thinking about. To me, someone like Janki Kripalani hardly even exists anymore ... by which I mean, even she does not have a concept of who she is rather she is the role she believes in (which itself is an act of personal will). Much of the nature of the self that the rest of us call ourselves, she does not have because the "facts of herself" that we call our personality have been so changed in her case and mutated into something imaginary according to the service roles she is using at any given time. Especially, the facts of herself that others are led to believe are true.

I mean to say, for all we know she could have killed her own child to escape her marriage and re-join Lekhraj Kirpalani. Who can tell? Who would dare ask? Who can bring any of them down to 'truth' and reality let along the whole lot of them acting together? The entire investment of their lives has been made into upholding a series of non-existent realities.
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bkdimok

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Post11 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote:I mean to say, for all we know she could have killed her own child to escape her marriage and re-join Lekhraj Kirpalani. Who can tell? Who would dare ask? Who can bring any of them down to 'truth' and reality let along the whole lot of them acting together?

I know only One Personality, who can make all this things. And I know another one, who can dare to ask. So it is just the matter of time. I am a pujary in a Temple. It is one of the closest service on a Bhakti path. Also I am a BK. So I'll ask God from these two positions and He won't have right not to answer:) As for person who will dare to ask all this questions to Seniors, I quess you won't miss this chance if it will appear?

With regards, Shankar.
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joel

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Post11 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote:To me, someone like Janki Kripalani hardly even exists anymore ... by which I mean, even she does not have a concept of who she is rather she is the role she believes in (which itself is an act of personal will). Much of the nature of the self that the rest of us call ourselves, she does not have because the "facts of herself" that we call our personality have been so changed in her case and mutated into something imaginary according to the service roles she is using at any given time. Especially, the facts of herself that others are led to believe are true.

How does how other people present her to the world for "service" purposes relate to her sense of herself? If not founding member, okay, an early member, anyway that was all a long time ago, she's been with Baba long enough, and the Confluence Age is the "foundation" after all. And it's all for Baba's service, that people should experience the One who can give them the fruit of their devotion.

Dadi Janki did meet mother Theresa, who was as humble as Dadi Janki was benevolent to that starving woman. Yes, she has, somehow she has, worked with poor and destitute children, since we are all poor destitute children of Baba after 84 births. She doesn't bother to read every detail, she leaves it to the press walla and Sister Jayanti.

I could see how you have no concept of who she is. I think she has some sense of herself, like it or hate it, some personality is there.
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ex-l

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Post11 Oct 2007

joel wrote:I could see how you have no concept of who she is. I think she has some sense of herself, like it or hate it, some personality is there.

I wish I had a better one then ... could the real Dadi Janki please stand up?

Really what I was drawing attention to is the constant reinvention and PR spin of the entity known as "Dadi Janki" that is having less and less connection with reality (vis a vis healing the sick, most stable mind in the world etc). The Dadi Janki being created in people's minds.

Now she is Global Chief. That she goes along with the sycophancy and false history syndrome is bad enough. Why is it is hard to get to reality with these people? Why constant hype?
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alladin

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cannibalism

Post11 Oct 2007

ex-l, I really enjoyed reading this post of yours on the 10th, and especially this part:
Card carrying BKs might get off on "Playing at Kings and Queens" under the guise it is "royal" behavior. Deifying qualities that are quite normal. We all know of some BK that LOVE being a subject to some Dadi or another. It might be human nature to want to submit to others and even beneficial for "the tribe" but, personally, I find it hard not just to see it as a "landgrab".

From this inspiration, I will give my self a little churning homework, about tribes and cannibalism. Once people feel used and traumatized, and their brains cooked, is not that a memorial for such existing rites in ancient and primitive societies?
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bkdimok

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Post11 Oct 2007

So, will there be any new variants in this poll or not?

With regards, Shankar
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