Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post26 Sep 2017

ex-l wrote: ... especially combined with the 5,000 year identically repeating cycle of time..... NO ONE in the BKWSU has the mystic powers to know the past and ... It's all just about control and keeping up the superiority/appearance of mysticism.

Exactly. I am mixing your points in the quote above ex-l, but it amazes me that BKs have such cognitive dissonance that they cannot put 2+2 together.

The CYCLE of time is so intrinsic to Gyan that any BK who doesn't get that their whole belief system is predicated on that the future IS the past is some special kind of stupid. When ”god’s predictions” fail, it isn’t just any sideshow gypsy who misread the tea leaves. And it's not a ”prediction” it's meant to be a telling of what’s past - history.

And it's meant to be god FFS. This is suposedly the ”Almighty Authority” who ”revealed” the 5000 year cycle, who tells us that what will be = what has happened, and that contemporary events (Confluence Age, Golden Age etc) are mere repetitions of last Kalpa etc - and gets it so wrong. God Shiva gets it wrong every Kalpa?

All the "special kind of stupid" BK spend hours, months years equivocating, rationalising from within their dozy intoxications because in that state the universe circles around them, and it all makes sense.

I speak from experience. I was very special. Thank God I fell back into ordinariness. I see much clearer now.
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Maui

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post29 Oct 2017

Well, I guess here's the start of something ... went to a Diwali program and spoke to a Brother I have known for years. Actually, I wasn't into the program at all, guess I was being "pulled" again.

We talked about karma being hurtful and damaging ... I used the example that ex-I did about "imagine a rape victim told it was her own fault AND she has to go through it all every 5,000 years" ... then brought up about how BapDada hasn't been able to predict any future. He was appalled, and apparently the center-in-charge overheard our conversation.

She tried to make me get on the ghaddi and repeat what I had said so the other BKs would know my comments and doubts. For the first time, calmly, but firmly, I told her "No, I'd be happy to discuss anything with her privately, but what kind of demeaning manipulation did she think she was trying to pull? As well as using such a derogatory tone ... who did she think she was, speaking to anyone like that?"

Well ... that went over big as you may well imagine. She told me I should leave and I said I'd be happy to. She seemed to be getting more and more irritated. The final joke came when she said to make sure I put something in Baba's box. I told her that I've paid for her mortgage many times over and perhaps she should find a way of working too. Figured I'd better leave before things got worse, especially when I left saying her audacity of entitlement and superiority was over for me.

I am surprising myself with now being as open as I want to be, while at the same time trying not to let my anger take over.
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bkti-pit

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post29 Oct 2017

Congratulations!
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Maui

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post30 Oct 2017

Thank you. It was empowering.

My friend came after me and was quite upset. He wants us to get together to "talk", that Maya has me and I will lose my credibility with the Seniors. He wants me to go to Madhuban with him and have a deeper connection.

I told him I appreciated his kindness and I will think about it, not wishing to further talk about this with him. Although I feel empowered, I also feel rather bad - it's confusing.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post30 Oct 2017

Wow! Yes, double congratulations.

Congratulations for saying it, and congratulations for keeping your cool.

Scratch the surface and see what is under it.

You should write a formal letter to the zone-in-charge complaining about her behaviour and dropping her in it. They really need to be taught lessons like this. Tell them how she demanded money from you, but due to her non-spiritual attitude, you are withdrawing your financial support. Do it to save others from the same experience.

Usually they go into overdrive to try and to suck you back in, afraid that once the dam start to leak, it will crumble entirely.
Maui wrote:He wants me to go to Madhuban with him and have a deeper connection.

Yes, I even got that offer too when I started raising issues here!

Raise big enough issues and they'll even offer to pay your travel, get VIP accommodation, and to meet some Dadi.

They'll try and make you feel special again.

The theory is that you'll be zapped by the holy spooks and magic vibes in Mount Abu, and fall back into the fold after being sweetened up. You may be given promises but nothing will change because nothing does, and after a few weeks or months you'll be back where you were. If you are a Sister, for example, you might be offered a move to a nicer, more upmarket centre.

On the other hand, it might even make things worse because now you are starting to see through the facade. Many people leave after going to Madhuban and seeing the reality.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post30 Oct 2017

Woweee Maui !!

Amazing that you kept so cool. I can be ultra cool sometimes but other times I can lose it, getting too sarcastic to have any effect.

Would have loved it if someone had videoed it and posted it online! But your post has made my day!
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Maui

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post30 Oct 2017

Still reeling from that encounter ... but thanks so much for your support everyone. It actually helps in my need to go forward and become un-entangled. I know that the pull is still strong for me for some reason.

I've told my friend this morning that I am not going to Madhuban this year and he said he feels sorry for me. I told him don't .. don't take sorrow :-). I am not.
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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post31 Oct 2017

Maui wrote: I know that the pull is still strong for me for some reason

We are only human. We enjoy company of like minded people. I think the trick is to not mix up disentangling from the specific group cult/ure that is the BKs with what you were interested in and motivated you to try the BKs, and ended up joining them.

If you list what you like/d about them, ask yourself - are they really the only group that has that to offer? It's a bit like someone realising that someone has let them down. Do you keep on with that relationship as if nothing has happened or do you break it off and engage in no other relationships because that one let you down? I think you can see the absurdity of limiting the choices to ”this one or no one”.

So, my point is - substitution. Find your self and your people in other places. Follow up the interests or friendships that were put on hold by your sidetrack down the BK road. Choose to spend some focused time on things that you've neglected - whether it's education, work, sport, Yoga, walking, hanging out in cafes, joining a book club, home maintenance, getting to know your neighbours or catching up with family, taking up an art that requires longer term incremental routine and practice, both for the mere enjoyment of it but also for the structure it can give ... and if the morning BK routine is a thing for you, use that time for the other things.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post31 Oct 2017

Pink Panther wrote:disentangling from the specific group ... ask yourself - are they really the only group that has that to offer?

I think that's all very good advice.

Something I discovered was that there was just good energy being in any group. That a part of the attraction to BK was just simple, ordinary group energy (part but not all), and all groups or others group had it too. What I learned from the experience was to experience groups without being sucked into them.

Then I think to ask yourself very specifically what it was about the BK group that you like, that it achieved and what it was that BKism really achieved.

For me, a big part of leaving BKism was that I got sick of the constant self (group) promotion. All of the "service", the meetings before and activities, were not about helping others but promoting themselves. I was part of the generation of BKs in which it was common to give up developing our education and careers because Destruction was coming "in two to three years" (that was, 1986). I damaged my own real interests and development terribly.

I was surprised to find other spiritual interests groups with a similar buzz. At the most obvious level, I think I just was look for a good 'ideal family' experience. But I ended up having to admit the bit I like, the esoteric discussions etc, just did not go far enough. The talk went so far, and then they stopped and held you back to keep their machine running.

However, yes, I also admit a sort of psychic bonding to either the group collective or their god spirit or whatever that experience was in meditation and so if that bothers you, you could also expore such ideas as spiritual healing and "de-cording".

If you are still well employed and skilled or educated, some kind of "project" to immerse yourself in, in short to lose all your extraneous thoughts in. Is a good thing. Then there is relationships.

Go for a long walk and sit in nature by yourself somewhere, tell the BK god spirit it is over for now, thank them for what you received, and then tell them to leave you alone now.
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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post01 Nov 2017

I am awed by the above 2 posts Pink Panther and ex-I. I have read and re-read them and such clarity and realizations of what I have done and what I need to start doing now. These thoughts are very practical and what I need right now is no emotional connection with Baba, any BK etc and begin down the journey of practicality. I sincerely thank you both for that because I honestly don't seem to know how.

The point of substitution, PP, is what I guess I have to start doing right away; I am having trouble focusing for some reason maybe because of the pull, I don't know. I have neglected much ... so much. And, after searching most of my life, thinking this was it, "this one or no one" hits home. Friendships put on hold? No, I destroyed them for this, and I have amends to make on that score; the same with family I have ignored, rejected and almost thrown away ... what God would want that??

Ex-I ... I don't know what kind of psychic bonding that is/was but that is very true for me and I don't want that kind of dependency anymore, although I must admit there was something beholding there. I will think, as you both say, what can I now achieve that attracted me so much to this God/organization. Perhaps the ideal family experience we all might have thought existed, as well as the intriguing and esoteric discussions, were and remain cold for me now.

You both have succeeded in giving me the impetus of change; as I continue to read and re-read again what you both have said, I must make plans.

Thank you !
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Maui

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post17 Nov 2017

Thank you ex-I and Pink Panther for constructing and formulating this forum. I have shown this to another BK who has now become an avid reader and we are keeping up a dialogue weekly re: all we are finding.

Becoming free feels like going forward a step, and 20 back, even when I think I've come so far. I don't know, even having stood up to the CC why this seems so difficult, but it remains so. I know, that for me, this forum is saving my life. And I don't say that easily. But, this other BK asked me something I did not have an answer for which affects him.

Do you know if there is some kind of duty of care mandate?
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post17 Nov 2017

Maui wrote:Do you know if there is some kind of duty of care mandate?

You write "mandate" as a legal relationships beyond the simple responsibility between any two human beings.

I don't know which country you are in - and there may be national variations - but, on the basis of various legal constitutions I have seen the simple answer is ... as a BK you have absolutely ZERO rights.

The get out clause they habitually use is that the BKWSU or BKWSO "has no members".

There are the directors (who, in essence, are allowed to be paid or 'kept' and have legal rights) and are generally the senior Sisters; and the trustees (who are not eligible for any income and are suppose to keep the directors in check but rare do).

But no members.

You are a donor, or a member of the public, a recipient of their grace, but within the legal structures they use you have no rights. You basically don't exist.

This is absolutely true of the BKWSO, for example. You can give them all of your money, all of your property, all of your time and energy ... and tomorrow they can lock you out of their centre at their whim.

Now, every developed nation has legal protections from abuses of power, usually under an "undue influence" mandate. Even India does (Section 16 in The Indian Contract Act, 1872) - in theory - adopted as much of their legal system is from the English (see also). But it's a different kind of legal situation where victims would have to start legal action against them, prove damages and so on. It's not the same kind of protected position as, say, an employee of business or a member of a political party or even club has.

Hence there are no formal procedures for dealing with complaints.

I am not sure what the legal position of "surrendered souls" within BKism is. Again, it's not written into their legal documents. I suspect they would strictly be employees and, hence, protected by all sorts of workers' rights if they should want and have the courage to pursue them. It would be an interesting challenge to the Kirpalani Klan's power structure but, obviously, "destroy their status" within BKism.

In short, far from being a progressive movement, or even a feminist movement, the Kirpalani Klan has exported a medieval power structure worldwide, one in which the serfs and indentured servants have absolutely no rights whatsoever.

To underline how backward it is, I was once a member of nothing more than a motorcycle club. Probably amongst the least enlightened level of organizations in the Western world. And yet, once I had paid my membership fee and annual subscriptions, I had inalienable rights; I had rights of access to the club's facilities, I could not be thrown out without good reason and after a due process had been completed, I was guaranteed whatever it was that the club promised to provide, and the directors/trustees of the club were bound to follow the rules and do whatever the club was set up to do, and I had a right to raise at an Annual or Special General Meeting any greivances I had. They had to be elected and could be voted out.

That is not special, or high minded, that is the simple basic norm in the West.

In BKism ... ZERO. You are back in rural 19th Century India, with even less power and rights than you would have had under a local headman and panchayat.

Now, legally, if you or anyone has been exploited for money, property or labour - and I think there is a very good case to say that the Kirpalani Klan with their bogus history, failed End of the World predictions, and all sorts of other 'undue influence' - then the law is in your favour.

For example, if you - as I was - were misled to give your time and money on the basis of the End of the World being in year xxxx and they did not warn you about the previous failed predictions; or if you - as I was - were misled to give your time and money on the basis of God being Shiva, but they did not tell you that for the first 20 odd years Lekhraj Kirpalani told everyone that he was god and to take third party legal advice - then the law is in your favour.

Generally, in an undue influence case, the party accused must prove their innocence. Guilt is sort of assumed as it is an exploitation of power. They are used in situations where there is a great imbalance of power, e.g. priests, doctors, bank managers, husband/wife and so on.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post17 Nov 2017

If anyone is considering starting legal action to get what they have given to the Brahma Kumaris back, or to be compensated for the loss and damage they have caused, then check with any insurance policy you might have, eg household insurance policies often have sections for covering legal expenses.

Likewise you might be able to find a lawyer who will take such a case on, on a "no win, no fee" or conditional basis, ie if they win, they get costs and a percentage of your award.

Unfortunately, such cases usually must be started within a reasonable time of the abuses happening. There are 'statutes of limitation' limiting them to, say, 6 or 10 years (depending on the kind of case and country). Sometimes, if it is serious, eg in sex abuse cases, that can be extended.

It would be a very interesting situation if a surrendered Sister would come forward and sue the BKWSO for pay/loss of earnings, damages include, eg the loss of family and so on. I would imagine that in the USA it could be a huge case that would ensure the Sister is looked after for the rest of her life and ensure that all other and future "surrendered Sisters" are protected ... although, I suspect the BKs would/have attempt to make such exploitation legal and require then to sign waivers. I don't think they would work though because we are talking about such a serious undue influence, eg the fear of God and eternal damnation.

I've read that BK France has started a new chapter of a more democratic society. I have no idea how that is working out for them as yet. It is quite new.
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Maui

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post25 Nov 2017

I know 3 surrendered souls who are quite influential.

One is quite the opportunist here in the USA and does quite well financially ... does not let others know how she is "supplied" with money. I know this one's donor ... another is in Europe and travels extensively with Yagya monies, however, has quite an inheritance for personal use. The third gave everything ... a quite substantial "everything" ... to the Yagya and is quite comfortable in that whatever this person needs, they receive.

Another long term niwassi is being well cared for in her illness; while other non-niwassis have no help ... none ... from BK Sisters at her center. She has little resources to take care of herself ... her family left her when she became a BK.

There are "exceptions" ... those cared more about if having given more service/money etc ... but still, if a non-niwassi, one fends for oneself.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post26 Nov 2017

Maui wrote:One is quite the opportunist here in the USA and does quite well financially ... does not let others know how she is "supplied" with money. I know this one's donor ...

How does that work?

She takes the donations to the organization and keeps them for herself? Or does the sponsor specifically give money just to her?

And how do they negotiate that with the organization and its leadership? Is it agreed or does the organization just go along with it as long as they deliver 'business as usual'.

Finances is one of the things that I have picked up on as being very opaque and irregular. Arranged on a case by case basis. I can understand why, if someone is stuck in the cult why they might just adopt a "survivalist" mentality and think, "what the hell, I need to look after myself because they are not going to", but I cannot condone or admire it.

At the end of the day, Baba's little princesses - for the lack of a proper profession and an unwillingness to enter into relationships - are just gold diggers. I am not saying that they are just "holy prostitutes" - although I do think they 'metaphorically' traffick and prostitute out their unpaid younger women. But they do look out for and need their "sugar daddies" to keep them.

Are their donors still mainly Indian businessmen? Obviously many are. Apart from the "Karmic Money Cleaning Tax™" they offer, I think that relationship needs examining, as in what the men get out of the relationship and what the "Princesses" symbolise to them, ie the facade of a "perfect women" in comparison to their tired, old worn out wife.

Just like Lekhraj Kirpalani ditching his wife for the young Om Radhe, the basic or fundemental archetype relationship being set at the beginning of the cult.
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