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Re: After Raj Yoga, Can There be ANY Faith?

PostPosted: 18 Jul 2009
by rayoflight
Hi gotmylifeback. And Congratulations on getting your life back!

I can relate to a lot of what you've said. Getting out of the BKWSO was the biggest wake up call for me. I am trying to learn how to take responsibility for it and how to not forget the dangers involved with such groups. This forum helps remind me of that.

There is a confidence that emerges when you get out of the BKWSO and that confidence has renewed my faith. I don't know if anything I learned is really true. The soul, karma, reincarnation etc. I have had my share of experiences so I used to be the first to say it was true because it was true to me. But now I am not so sure anymore and I am okay with that. It doesn't seem to matter to me as much anymore either. I've just accepted that I am a human being which seems to be a sort of consciousness in an incredible organism, and I have to eat, sleep, work, play, exercise, study, have relationships and go through the ups and downs of all of this like everybody else.

I can explore other dimensions above and below ground but that doesn't change the basics that make up a human life. Having wasted so much time with the BK's has cured me of a few things, one of which is I am no longer as complicated as I used to be. Once I got my priorities straight again, a sense of clarity returned which has helped me get my life back on track. It's great to have a big heart, to want to serve humanity and to love God so dearly, but it's not great if it creates an imbalance in one's life and removes us from the joys of being free.

Re: After Raj Yoga, Can There be ANY Faith?

PostPosted: 18 Jul 2009
by lokila
bkti-pit wrote: What matters to me is to live a life of truth, which for me is not so much about knowing but about behaving, not about being right but about being good and loving...

Thanks for this quote bkti-pit. This is the exact way I want to describe spirituality for myself nowadays. For me it is all about how I interact with people. I try to practice the values I was taught in the BK. The 36 virtues, 8 powers, 16 arts of life ... (amazing these multiplies of the number 8): wonderful stuff which always made me think about how one could really live up according to their true meaning (not necessarily as described in the BK books). Back then I thought they were original BK-stuff. Now I know they are not. But they are definitely worthwhile, so I try not to spoil their value by the fact the BK claims it as their original teachings. Nor do I want to devalue them because I was so disappointed that my spiritual family could not provide the example of how to practice these values. (It was quite the opposite).

At these days spirituality for me is not about faith or spooks but about being the human being the best way I can. Not wanting to make a choice between the two thoughts of being an eternal soul or just being chemical fabric. I do not know. Who knows? Being a part of human species and live a life which suits me (and the ones around me) best is what it's all about for me.

Re: After Raj Yoga, Can There be ANY Faith?

PostPosted: 18 Jul 2009
by rayoflight
I also think it is a beautiful quote bkti-pit.

And it seems that the more I read this forum, the better I feel.

Faith does return. The hardest part is recovering from the disappointment and everything that comes with it including depression and disillusionment. And the best way to do it is to get out there in the world. Not everybody is going to let us down. Some people have never been to an ashram or India but somehow know how to be good, caring and loving human beings. That is what brings faith back. Because we haven't really lost faith in God, spirituality or even ourselves. We've lost faith in people.
bkti-pit wrote:What matters to me is to live a life of truth, which for me is not so much about knowing but about behaving, not about being right but about being good and loving...
Swami Vivekenanda, Karma Yoga: The Yoga of Action As Guatama Buddha wrote: What is the use of discussing all the subtle doctrines about the soul? Do good and be good. And this will take you to freedom and to whatever truth there is..."

"You may have noticed a special gracefulness from certain enlightened yogis and even just the occasional person you run into. This comes from a non-self-consciousness of action. There is no ego involvement in the decision making of a free person. When there is an ego consideration there is usually stress of opposing desires and therefore, a lack of gracefulness."

This quote made me think that with the superiority complex inherent in the BK teachings, the BK's are not free. As for the gracefulness, since it is a by-product of inner freedom the BK's cannot have that either. I think the BK idea of freedom is detachment. But they are not the same at all.

Spiritual ego is not only an obstacle to gracefulness and freedom, but also enlightenment. How can you ever reach true enlightenment if you are constantly swimming within the limitations of a small and incestuous pond?

Re: After Raj Yoga, Can There be ANY Faith?

PostPosted: 02 Jun 2020
by Mann
I have left BKs almost 3 years ago. I am happily settled in my life outside the BK world.

But I cannot pray/meditate or think of God in any way. As soon as I begin to even think of God (not Baba/ShivaBaba) the same feeling starts. A spook or a spirit which interacted with me during my time with BKs
begins to have conversation again. I am reminded of waking up at 4am, not eating outside, being celibate etc. I thought after a 'fast' of 3 years from any type of spiritual or religious practice I can begin where I left before joining BKs.

But it seems like I can never get rid of BK meditation.
Has anyone else felt this way too?

Re: After Raj Yoga, Can There be ANY Faith?

PostPosted: 02 Jun 2020
by ex-l
Mann wrote:Has anyone else felt this way too?

Thank you for posting and welcome.

Yes, still, 40 years on. I am shy of doing any other practise for not "fear" but a sort of irritation that I get pulled back in, eg the feelings I used to have as a BK, like pressures on the third eye or 'tickles' above the crown of my head area. In my day, the doing of bhattis (long mediations, may be two hours or so) was a bit of thing and we were much more rigid about doing, or trying to do, the 4am, 6am, 7 to 7.30pm thing. They also *just* introduced traffic control, only I was on my way out by then.

The sad and frustrating bit was, before BKism - and I got sucked in by the false branding of "Raja Yoga" - I was doing hatha Yoga (and tai chi) and progressing very well. I was "feeling" things/energies through that too.

Consequently, it is not clear to me what is a BK experience and influence, and what is a universal or tantric style experience, eg "chakras". I also don't think the BKs have any idea either and just encourage people to talk about and claim both as an encouragement to keep doing BKism.

Other ex-BKs are more confident that these are just universal or tantric style experiences that the BKs label as their own. I am not sure.

But what the overall experience has given me is,
    a) The loss of any desire, conscious or unconscious, to be a "guru" style figure ... although clearly it's a multi-billion business these days, we missed out on the advantageous of being early adopters!
    b) A loss of the need for a god figure and an immunity to cultic dynamics and religion.
Now, clearly the latter, for many, would be a great loss and sadness because of the social elements and advantages of such an involvement. I could not go back and be a Christian or something. I think I could probably go and be Buddhist though (gods, perhaps; god, no; but no real significance given to either).

If I need to chill, I just lie down, put a pillow over my head to block out the city, and do a "dead man" pose.

I witnessed and experienced very similar buzzes and highs with other spiritual leaders with cultic circles, so it's not entire unique but never joined or committed.

What are you doing with your time and what are you interested?

Lastly, I think the experience of exiting and learning about the dynamics of cultic experiences, society, religion and so on has been very useful and interesting.

I really believe that the lesson in BKism is to leave BKism, not get stuck and stay. To graduate from it.

There are many that drop back in and out. Some for the lack of anywhere else to do, some out of personal relationships ... but there really is a lot still out there to learn and experience.

What made you pull out?


Re: After Raj Yoga, Can There be ANY Faith?

PostPosted: 04 Jun 2020
by Pink Panther
Anyone involved in BKs for any length of time has become conditioned to associate certain actions, postures, words, feelings with the BK paradigm. Humans are no different to Pavlov’s dog, we become conditioned to respond. It is unsurprising that adopting a meditation position will bring up BK associated thoughts and feelings unless you have disassociated them from each other.

I think that if you want to be able to meditate but do it without that instinctive BK response, a certain kind of CBT is needed (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy). It's often used for people who have phobias or have developed aversion to certain places or situations due to trauma, etc.

For example, a recently deceased acquaintance of mine was a pioneer of CBT in Australia. Among other things, he often worked with victims of armed robberies — bank staff, petrol station attendants. If a bank teller couldn't face going back to work after the event, after sessions of counselling etc, he’d drive them and park near the bank in sight of it, and they'd sit in the car, talk a bit. He’d make a point of mentioning other things that were going on around outside, the role of the bank and the people coming and going there. Each time they’d park closer to the site and stay a little longer. Then they'd stand outside the bank, then, eventually, when the person was ready, go back in. They could then resume work.

I am not suggesting you go stand and look at the BK centre, not at all !!!

What I am suggesting is — firstly, don't meditate. Have a break.

Read up seriously about other kinds of meditation, mystical practices of different Christian, Buddhist, Muslim etc — anything that’s not using similar Hindu-type terms as BKs, as well as maybe more scientific stuff by Edmund Jacobsen and Herbert Benson who looked for the common aspect of what eventually came to be called ”the relaxation response”. And, of course, the current fad for ”mindfulness" and "being fully present”. Maybe read up/listen to podcasts on neurology, psychology, history, philosophy too. ie replace the old diet with new food for thought!

Then you need to create associations for preparing for meditation that are not things which the BKs teach. Do some exercise or Yoga or a long walk. When you decide to adopt a meditation pose again, do it for only a very short time.

Have a book you are reading handy, refer to it, read a paragraph or sentence. Then meditate on what you read. Or sit while listening to a podcast — just for a little while, then get back to regular activity. Over time you might sit longer and maybe allow your mind to roam more freely, occasionally noting down ideas or doodling drawings or whatever — or just listening to music.

If BK ideas do enter your mind, don’t respond emotionally ”I don't like that” or try to push it away. Just make a mental note that thsi thought arose and what arises will fall away again, as do all thoughts. Get back to whatever you were meditating on before it arose, or go elsewhere

Nothing is less BK than practicing body consciousness! Many traditional meditation are very body conscious. Kriya Yoga, Kaya Vipassana name themselves as such! (Kriya and kaya are both words for body) .

Focus your attention on your internal haptic sense, how you feel within yourself physically, how am I sitting, what is pulsing, breath, posture, adjust and become comfortable. Unlike BKs, as you do activities don't try to remember any Baba or Soul World, focus on what you do and how you are feeling in your body (in a touch sense) .

Practices like tai chi and some Buddhist martial arts accept the body-mind as one entity - again that is the opposite of BKism.

I enjoy occasionally going for walks barefoot. Short or long walks, doesn't matter. I carry sandals or thongs with me so if i need to cross a bad patch of ground I can slip them on. Being barefoot makes me have to focus on where I am treading and to that I will add awareness fo posture and breath, especially into the upper chest cavity. I aim to relax my body while having it feel strong and erect. I always feel clear after, very grounded, in every sense of the word! Does’t need to be far and speed is not the aim at all.

Just do a little and build up. BK stuff will arise in memory, that’s inevitable as its part of our experience. Time to treat it the way you treat memories of primary school or childhood playgrounds or that irritating old uncle - just because you remember it doesn’t mean you want to go back there. It was. Now is the time for what is.

Re: After Raj Yoga, Can There be ANY Faith?

PostPosted: 04 Jun 2020
by ex-l
Honest question, Mann.

Do you still feel the need for god and religion, or is it the stilling/quietening of your mind that you are after?

I suppose looking at Kubler-Ross's Five Stages of Grief concept might also fit in to the process. Working through that the BKs and their god is dead for you, and actually letting go?

It clearly matters for some people but I, personally, don't. If it is the ritual aspect, others can be invented - nature, my garden is my church now. Creating beauty, as in any aesthetic process, can take the place or meaningless ritual. There's plenty of good to do without the conditional religious baggage and often doing it, you'll find new and healthier community.

Is it just a question of filling up the space removing BKism from your life created with other stuff?