BK member for five years

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arvind.giri

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Re: BK member for five years

Post09 Feb 2014

But do you honestly believe God uses tricks to teach and encourage

Suppose a doctor has to do a major operation which if directly told to patient, patient may deny out of fear but it is for his overall well being. Then, instead of telling him the truth, doctor may tell him that it is a minor operation so that patient agrees to get operated. Should we question integrity of the doctor in this case? or see his intention ?

The problem is not with the doctor but with the patient because patient may not have intellect to take the right decision, had complete facts been put in front of him.

Also do you think, that this knowledge is only about becoming kings in SatYuga, exactly 100 years of Sangam yuga etc etc? There was a point in the Murli few days back and I had heard it earlier as well. It says "Tum koto mai koi ho, aur tumhare me bhi birle hi is Gyan ko puri tarah samjhte hai (you are one of the millions and among you only few would understand it completely)". Had this knowledge been only about 5000 years cycle, Kalpa tree, king in SatYuga
etc, what would have been the significance of the above point in Murli. Don't you think that The Knowledge is deeper than what we think?

In the above scenario of doctor I discussed, there can be two kind of patients. First, those who would trust the doctor's word. Second, those who won't believe the words but would trust his intention. Both will get benefited ultimately. However, had the doctor put the facts straight forward, first group might have got confused and only second group might have got benefited.

So I believe (and have experienced so far) that Murli is for all the groups with different intellect level, that is why everyone interprets same point differently. Since Murli targets groups with different intellect level together, so I agree, some points may create confusion logically, but if someone has trust in the intention, he/she will not see any conflict.

Also in one of the Murli, it was mentioned that God follows Nature's rule. He doesn't interfere with Nature's rule, so we cannot expect God to do magic for us. All magic he does is our empowerment, enlightenment, showing the right way, and gives us some tips and tricks to increase our karmic accounts (which is not limited to seva).
I mean, how long will you put off saving for your retirement, or having a family, or buying a home, or studying to fulfil your potential in your area of talent, and so on?

Again as per my understanding, throwing away lives, relationships, career, education etc is not required. But knowing the right boundary is very important. It's better to remain well within the safe boundary, in case will power is not very strong or intellect is not very clear about what the right boundary is, e.g. I go to restaurant with friends but don't eat anything there. However, if someone may get lured by the restaurant food, he or she may be advised to not go with the friends to restaurant at all. But explaining the right boundary to each and everyone is not very easy. People will start comparing with each other and would probably misjudge their potential (will power and intellect). As we are talking about thousands of followers and people from different intellect should be taken along together, hence some rules have been drawn.
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Pink Panther

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Re: BK member for five years

Post09 Feb 2014

Any doctor that did what you suggest would be struck off.
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bkti-pit

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Re: BK member for five years

Post09 Feb 2014

I am not interested in a doctor who is too dishonest to tell me the truth nor in a dishonest God.
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because.parmeshwar

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Re: BK member for five years

Post09 Feb 2014

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BKs' Present Mission
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Arvind, in short ...

Brahmakumaris whole mission is now changed over the years ... They started well ... but now they are totally out of orbit. They themselves are trapped in to their own web. Today the only thing they are surviving on is yuktis (in normal language we call it LIES). Few are still thinking that the Destruction will come and save them ... so be aware. Unlike us, today you have lot of information to take some wise steps ... Good luck to you
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ex-l

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Re: BK member for five years

Post09 Feb 2014

Because.parmeshwar? It's "four men at once" ... "another one driving me around, and another one paying my bills". Only it's not just one shopkeeper or business paying her bills, it's 100s. Suckered into thinking they are earning millions by doing so.

On one hand, there is nothing profound about the teachings. On the other hand, the god spirits of the BKs have made so many bloopers that their credibility is in the minuses. It's almost as if the spirits behind the BKs are laughing at human beings seeing how much they can get away with.

If you imagine the spirit voices more like a gang of troublesome teenage boys making a fool of old aunties it makes more sense. e.g. "Watch this ... I'll tell them the world will end in 1976 and that they should sell their house and give us the money", "No, no, no ... that's nothing ... I'll tell them the population of the world is only 4.5 billion and the rest are just die like flies, so not to care about them", "[i]Flies ...? Ha, ha ... I'll tell them that children are like scorpions and snakes so they waste their lives not having any and then die alone with no one to look after them, but that Krishna will be reborn in 2011!", "Krishna will be reborn in 2011 ...? OK, then I'll say heaven on earth with be ready by 2036 and Krishna will become Narayan too!!!"

Arvind, it's not "God".

It may be a good enough metaphor for God for you at your current level, and you may well be in awe at the Brahma Kumaris business success and wish you had a part of the action, but if there is a god or even just higher beings, I am pretty sure they operate at a higher ethical level. I am pretty sure they don't cajole human beings into doing nothing with their lives, or spending it lying, by tricking and fooling them and making them believe false things.

Is that really how "God" works? Would "God" really come to Earth and not know that Islam and Muslims are one and the same thing and was established 2,500 years ago? Or not know about Judaism? How more obvious a clue do you need?

What is the purpose or benefit in being taught Judaism is Muslim and would "God" or the "Father of Humanity" know the difference?

I am sorry but it's how confidence tricksters work ... like the Nigerian 419 con men ... they tell a huge enough lie and whoever believes in it is a big enough sucker to then be robbed, possibly for life. The Nigerian con men offer you 10 million dollars if you pay them in advance ... the BKs offer you multi-millions more, and for 2,500 years, if you surrender everything to them! Net result is the same.

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Really, what the Brahma Kumaris have done is pretty unremarkable. All they have done is return to the social position they occupied in the caste system before Lekhraj Kirpalani threw it all away. Some of them are treated like little princesses (Kumaris) and hobnob with big businessmen and VIPs, others are women kept indoors as cooks and housekeepers. All they've done is take the Sindhi business model (which included hospitality) and apply it to religion. Whereas they used to trade other people's craft work, now they trade other people religious philosophies.

What a great business ... the trade of ideas. You don't even have to tie up capital in stock and all you have to export/import is ideas.
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Re: BK member for five years

Post10 Feb 2014

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arvind.giri

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Re: BK member for five years

Post11 Feb 2014

Pink Panther wrote:Any doctor that did what you suggest would be struck off.

Can’t say anything on this comment. Just trying my best to ensure that if it is real I don’t miss the bus. People had same apprehensions about Jesus as well and which were proved wrong later. But, yes, knowing everyone's experience and opinion will definitely help me in taking right decision.
I am not interested in a doctor who is too dishonest to tell me the truth nor in a dishonest God.

I respect your opinion. We all have to decide individually for us.
because.parmeshwar wrote:... so be aware. Unlike us, today you have lot of information to take some wise steps ... Good luck to you

“because.parmeshwar” thanks for your well wishes. I agree with you that things might have changed in the years, but I think you are referring to BKs not The Knowledge. I think we should not leave a subject due to the fact that fellow students are not doing their work perfectly. Also so far I haven’t got any reason to believe that BK spirit is not God. Because somewhere I think that we have made our own perceptions about God and we measure God with these perceptions, without realizing that our perceptions may not be 100% correct.

By the way your id is very interesting (because.parmeshwar). What is the idea behind it ?
ex-l wrote:On one hand, there is nothing profound about the teachings

I am reading Gita nowadays (the religious book of Hindus) which many great leaders like Mahatma Gandhi etc have followed. On other hand I go to daily Murli classes. What I have found so far is that Murli is a very easy and practical way to follow Gita. People need to be very intellectually intelligent to understand Gita but Murli makes following things very practical to everyone, e.g. the final stage in the BK Gyan is becoming Karmatit (detaching ‘I’ from actions) and ‘Ichcha matram avidya’ meaning, ‘just do the actions and don’t expect any return’. Same thing has been mentioned in the Gita and there are many more points.
I'll tell them that children are like scorpions and snakes so they waste their lives not having any and then die alone with no one to look after them

I haven’t heard this point in any Murli so far. Regarding the children, what I heard in one Murli is, “Rachna ki sambhal to karni hi hai” means, “You must take care of the creation (children)”. In yesterday’s Murli also, it was mentioned that, “Sabko Maryadas mai rah kar sukh do” which means, “Give happiness to all while being inside the boundary”. To me it means, play with the child but that should not mean that you take his/her favor always. You should do whatever you can do, but you should not worry about the things which are not in your hands. Also last week I went to a retreat center with my child and I never felt that anyone is treating my child as scorpion or snake. In fact, everyone treated her very well.

In fact, before joining BK, when I visited the Gyan Sarovar campus at Mount Abu as a tourist, my child slipped and fell on the ground. Instead of getting up, the kid started crying though the kid wasn’t hurt. At that time, one BK Sister (I think she was a teacher because she was leading a group) said to kid with smile that, "get up kid, don’t wait for your parents. You are fine". I realized that this is how a child should be brought up, instead of making the child very much emotionally dependent on the parent.
... but if there is a god or even just higher beings, I am pretty sure they operate at a higher ethical level. I am pretty sure they don't cajole human beings into doing nothing with their lives, or spending it lying, by tricking and fooling them and making them believe false things.

Let me know when you will be 100% sure :). Also, few days ago it was mentioned in the Murli that if someone doesn’t do any service in Madhuban, he/she is like a beggar. I don’t think that spreading religion should be considered as doing nothing or spending the life lying, because all people on God’s service do the same, be it any religion. Plus, based on my study of Murli of past few months, I don't think "doing nothing" is encouraged in BK. At our center, everyone goes to their regular jobs (Engineers, HR, Drivers, Property Dealers, House wives, Students etc) after daily Murli class.
Would "God" really come to Earth and not know that Islam and Muslims are one and the same thing and was established 2,500 years ago? Or not know about Judaism? How more obvious a clue do you need?

Two points on this;

1) We seem to have perception that Shiv Baba micromanages the worldly things like pictures/posters etc.;
2) I am doing research on this but so far it seems like it is not black and white. May be you are right but let me complete my research; By the way, I also did not hear about 'Sikh' religion in the Kalpa tree but have seen many Sikhs in the Madhuban.
Really, what the Brahma Kumaris have done is pretty unremarkable. All they have done is return to the social position they occupied in the caste system before Lekhraj Kirpalani threw it all away

And what did Lekhraj Kirpalani (Brahma Baba) get in return of throwing his money? Spent rest of his life in a hut. I don’t think it is a great business.

And Jann, nice creativity :).
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ex-l

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Re: BK member for five years

Post11 Feb 2014

I'll tell them that children are like scorpions and snakes so they waste their lives not having any and then die alone with no one to look after them
arvind.giri wrote:I haven’t heard this point in any Murli so far ... By the way, I also did not hear about 'Sikh' religion in the Kalpa tree.

The references to Sikhism and its influence started coming into to the cult/Murli early on. Nanak is often mention name and appears in The Tree from the 60s/70s onwards.

One of the problems with your vision of the BKs is that by now the Murlis have been heavily edited and revised to remove much of the politically incorrect stuff, so the impression you have of them and their god spirit is false. "Air brushed" like the big Bollywood images of Lekhraj Kirpalani. However, I can assure you that it how he spoke. Ditto, the quotes you offer are meaningless unless you give us a specific dated reference as by "children" they could just mean BK, as in "children of their god Father".

I never found the Bhagavad Gita particularly complex but the sort of referential confirmation you are offering here has been typical of Hindu BKs for decades. You're looking for confirmation in the Gita and using it so as to confer authority on the Murlis but, really, there's little to no correlation between the two. The Gita is less boring and less repetitive by a long way. The Murli hardly matches the best commentaries on it ... and since it confirms time and time again that there is no benefit in the Gita, and Krishna is not god, I don't see why you would bother with it. Such an intellectual attachment would certainly be consider a little bit of a Maya from a BK point of view.

But, again, I must remind you that what you are read out as the Murlis today is a lot different from the originals and so the impression you have of them is rose tinted.

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And what did Lekhraj Kirpalani (Brahma Baba) get in return of throwing his money? Spent rest of his life in a hut. I don’t think it is a great business.

I'd disagree. To become "carefree" ... not to have the hassle of paying taxes, of dealing with greedy in-laws, of dealing with social politics, gift giving, conforming and so on ... is a *great* benefit. And, let's be honest, it was a cottage in the middle of a retreat, in an upmarket holiday resort, surrounded by his gopi servants, who took care of his every requirements in a good climate. Hardly "living in a hut".

It sounds like a pretty damned good deal to me ... and far better than his alternative trajectory had he remained in business. Think it through, how would he have ended up if he had remained Lekhraj Kirpalani?

He even, essentially, got rid of his old wife and traded her in for a new, younger, more attractive one. I don't suppose they told you that he has a "marriage" ceremony with Om Radhe and chose her to be his eternal companion whilst he wife and mother of his children was basically downgrade to a housekeeper.
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Re: BK member for five years

Post12 Feb 2014

arvind.giri wrote: Just trying my best to ensure that if it is real I don’t miss the bus. People had same apprehensions about Jesus as well and which were proved wrong later

Are you saying that Jesus is what the Christians believe? Why are you then not a Christian?

All religions that survive and prosper do so by letting go of their parochial peculiarities and adopting the more universal.

For example, the Jesus legend basically took over the pre-existing mythologies associated with Osiris, Mithra, Dionysus, Alexander - among others, the historically later ”incarnation” - consolidating the prophecies and attributes of the earlier figures to be more widely relevant (one of the reasons for Christianity’s rapid growth in popularity once it abandoned its Jewish reformist roots). See this graphic which still misses other ”gods”.

The supreme "knowledge”, as revealed by "Gyan ki Sakar ShivBaba”, one would expect to be reliable, precise, absolute and unchanging, (as fixed and permanent as The Cycle it purports to explain!). But it is as mutable as any humanly inspired mythology.

It (the Gyan) is revised and rewritten as required, deleting the ”embarrassing” episodes or now unacceptable language (e.g. "dirty shudras"), explaining away failed or unjustifiable claims with all kinds of excuses & equivocations in a quest for coherence and continued relevance (and more importantly, to never be seen to be wrong) shifting emphasis from the defining, peculiarly BK aspects to more universally acceptable platitudes (so why would BKs even exist?).

It is not totally manipulated cynically by people (although it is partially so) nor is it done with outright malevolence. But it is done with a kind of selective memory. It happens by collective agreement to ”allow" things to evolve that way, by those who identify with that community for whatever reasons or intentions.
Also so far I haven’t got any reason to believe that BK spirit is not God. Because somewhere I think that we have made our own perceptions about God and we measure God with these perceptions, without realizing that our perceptions may not be 100% correct.

So, nearly all would agree that the word ”God” is usually meaning some kind of supernatural entity, personal or impersonal, that is either an instigator, creator or a more passive ”principle" by which the universe exists. Beyond that very general definition there are infinite beliefs (and all possibilities might be equally ”reasonable" given the nebulousness of the whole idea. Truth becomes a ”consumer choice”).

More importantly, what is your definition?

Have you changed your definition to fit the BK definition because you desire it to be true, or did the BK definition somehow coincide fully with your pre-existing one? If you had not been born in a Hindu society, or were born into a family that was atheistic or maybe Chinese, would your mental framework still think in terms of God of the Gita etc?
We seem to have perception that Shiv Baba micromanages the worldly things like pictures/posters etc.
Indeed ”he” did. This has been written about elsewhere. Basically all ”official” posters, from the beginning, were conceived and strictly supervised by Dada Lekhraj, who, you’ll remember, thought he himself was God ("Prajapati God Brahma" said the first posters).

Later when he decided he was not God but God’s Chariot (Cognitive disassociation? Voices?) and number one son, he still oversaw all details and nothing was reproduced until it was given full approval. Even if "Sakar Baba” approved, he instructed trance messengers to show it to Avyakt BapDada (do you know this aspect, that Avyakt BapDada co-existed with Sakar?) to get approval from the ”perfect form”.

Even later ”Western” depictions, post-1969, were presented to "avaykt Baba” - channeled by Gulzar - I was there when a new depiction of the Kalpa tree, correcting some of the errors ex-l mentions, was shown to Avyakt BapDada for his approval and was then distributed widely. Now, the earlier versions were supervised ”in person” by God, the later ones saw God corrected by humans (this one was painted by a person who was never a BK) and these were submitted for ”his" approval. A little odd, don’t you think?

Keep up your research.

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ex-l

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Re: BK member for five years

Post12 Feb 2014

Yes, good point. When I saw your misleading reference to Jesus, Arvind, I thought to myself that either you don't really know what the Brahma Kumaris teach about Jesus and other religions ... a bit like what they teach about the Gita ... or you were being a little disingenuous. Slightly dishonest or manipulative of religious values. Which would you say was true? Jesus, or Christianity, is no holy cow in my book.
    Christians claim that Jesus was God; the Brahma Kumaris state firmly he was not.
    Christians believe that Jesus had a direct connection and spoke to God (himself?); the Brahma Kumaris state firmly he did not.
    Christians believe Jesus rose to heaven and ascended; the Brahma Kumaris state firmly he did not, that he reincarnated on Earth many times.
    The Brahma Kumaris believe Jesus was possessed by another soul, the Christ soul; Christians do not.
He may not even have existed (historically there were a few Jesus) and if he did, it's unlikely he was the man of modern myths about it.

In short, Brahma Kumarism challenges and denies the all the major sacraments of the Christian religion and states they are false and of little value, so it's a very bad example to use. The main thing that the two religions have in common ... and it appears Lekhraj Kirpalani and the BKs are borrowing heavily from Christianity ... is that Jesus and the early Christians believed the world was going to end in their life time. It did not. It probably wont in the case of the BKs either but that does not matter ... as with End of the World Christian cults, End of the World-ism (millenarianism) is good for business.

It's great for pulling the money in. If there's no future, you may as well give us all your money and free labor now! " (... This world is worthless ... give us all your time and money and we will give you multi-millions in your next life!!!")

It's true now that we know Jesus and Christianity was a made up cult, or perhaps "re-manufactured cult", re-manufactured by the Romans to control an Empire that encompassed many lands ... a bit like Brahma Kumarism is becoming as they re-manufacture and re-market their god and god man to sell it across their global business empire.

I am half expecting them to claim Lekhraj Kirpalani was born via the power of Yoga and a virgin birth in the next 10 years ... Oh, wait, they do already! Not as Lekhraj Kirpalani ... but as his next birth as Krishna.

Kindly, I am supposing now that you are a religious soul - someone that values religion - somewhat on the outside of the Brahma Kumaris attempting to see your religion reflected in Brahma Kumaris. This is what they do, they reflect back religious impressions to attract you.

You need to look behind the mirrors to see what is really going on.

For example, for 20 years, their millionaire founder Lekhraj Kirpalani thought he was god and the inner circle of BKs believed it. Does it really take someone with intelligence and enlightenment 20 years to realise that they are not god? Wouldn't someone who believed they were god ... and, specifically in the case of Lekhraj Kirpalani, the direct cause of WWII as he did ... be more likely to be better off in a mental hospital?

Not even Jesus or Buddha thought they were gods, and I am unconvinced Lekhraj Kirpalani was more enlightened or spiritual than them ... which is what the BK teach. More than twice as spiritual.
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arvind.giri

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Re: BK member for five years

Post14 Feb 2014

Any doctor that did what you suggest would be struck off

Following are the excerpts from a spiritual website

It says
Thought Power: Doctors Can Heal by Suggestion

Doctors should have a thorough knowledge of the science of suggestion. Sincere, sympathetic doctors are very rare. Doctors who have no knowledge of suggestion do more harm than good. They kill patients sometimes by unnecessarily frightening them.

If there is a little cough of an ordinary nature, the doctor says: “Now, my friend, you have got T.B. You must go to Bhowali or Switzerland or Vienna. You must go in for a course of tuberculin injection.” Poor patient is frightened. There is not at all any sign of consumption. The case is an ordinary one. It is simple catarrh of the chest from exposure to chills. The patient actually develops phthisis by fright and worry owing to the wrong destructive suggestion of the doctor.

The doctor ought to have told him: “Oh, it is nothing. It is simple cold. You will be all right by tomorrow. Take a purgative and inhale a little oil of eucalyptus. Adjust your diet. It is better you fast today.” Such doctor is God Himself. He must be adored.

The main article is also a very interesting read (http://www.dlshq.org/download/thought_power.htm#_VPID_4).

Also if above article is true, BKs get all these benefits by just following the BKism and without even knowing it :).
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ex-l

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Re: BK member for five years

Post14 Feb 2014

The The Divine Life Society is Sivananda's Ashram, no? (He funnily enough, started work in 1936). But where's the scientific evidence and particularly the BK-related scientific evidence?

You can make claims something work to give to patience without it being tested and proven otherwise you'll get struck off, or be called a quack selling snake oil.
arvind.giri wrote:Also if above article is true, BKs get all these benefits by just following the BKism and without even knowing it :).

Then why do so many of their leader get sick and die of serious illness?

Oh, the BKs have a mental plug for that too, "Don't ask, don't question ... it was their Karma".

Plug, plug, lug, plug ... their rule is aim to be stupid (buddhu) and you be blissfully happy. Don't think of anything else.

For example, it would be good is they *proved* the above, e.g. made a long term survey of illness within the BKWSU and then analysed what was causing any benefit.

But they BKs have a mental plug against that too, "Don't ask, don't question ... the old world and old body is all going to be destroyed".

I am sorry Arvind, you have to be honest ... for all the claims the BKs make about themselves and all the multi-million they spend promoting themselves, you have to admit ... there's very little real benefit or substance to it all.

It makes people happy by making them thing they and their future is better, and cost them 10% to 100% of their time, money and life to do so. Meanwhile, the real world carries on ... and the evidence suggest will continue to carry on in some form of other rather than the failed and impossible predictions suggest.
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Re: BK member for five years

Post14 Feb 2014

The The Divine Life Society is Sivananda's Ashram, no? (He funnily enough, started work in 1936). But where's the scientific evidence

It is not their fault that science is not advance enough to check all these metaphysical things :).
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Re: BK member for five years

Post14 Feb 2014

It's perfectly capable of observing the results. What we are talking about here is not so much "science" (knowledge) but apply "the Scientific Method" to spirituality. That's perfect possible. But BKs, instead, focus on cheap marketing through cheap and unrealistic advertising, much of it exaggerating its own importance.

For example, the BKs now run cardiac/heart programmes and claim good results. Let them collate them and present them for review. Or do an overall health review of BKs and let's look at the results. Or have independent experts review individuals' states of mind.

Of course, I suspect the BKs only started doing cardiac programmes because so many elderly Indian BKs were having heart problems. The cause was diet and lack of exercise, and the cure was diet and exercise ... but do double blind testing and have independent sources review it. They'll that, that's not what they are about, they are about "purifying Karma" for which there is no evidence, no explanation, no proof it is happening ... it's all down to faith it is happening, a indiscriminate confirmational system where everything is good and is done by Baba". It's just Bhakti.

I am pretty sure that believing in 5,000 year cycles does not cure heart disease.

But to the BKs, all that stuff is just a waste of resources and a risk because it might show that BKism does nothing. It's a business, their priority is selling their stuff and making money. They don't care what they say to do so.
The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, consisting of systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

The chief characteristic which distinguishes the scientific method from other methods of acquiring knowledge is that scientists seek to let reality speak for itself, supporting a theory when a theory's predictions are confirmed and challenging a theory when its predictions prove false.

Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses via predictions which can be derived from them. These steps must be repeatable to guard against mistake or confusion in any particular experimenter.

Scientific inquiry is generally intended to be as objective as possible in order to reduce biased interpretations of results. Documenting, archiving, and sharing all data and methodology is important so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, giving them the opportunity to verify the results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of the data to be established.

In short, if you are going to call yourself a University, act like one. Not a bunch of semi-senile, uneducated old ladies infantilising followers to replace the children they wasted their lives not having.
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arvind.giri

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Re: BK member for five years

Post14 Feb 2014

ex-l wrote:It's perfectly capable of observing the results. What we are talking about here is not so much "science" (The Knowledge) but apply "the Scientific Method" to spirituality

Perfect. Though as always you again digressed from the main point toward the points which suit you :). The ongoing point of discussion was "thought power" as explained by "The Divine Life Society".

Anyways. Let's discuss what you want to discuss :).
Let them collate them and present them. Or do an overall health review of BKs and let's look at the results. Or have independent experts review individuals' states of mind

Don't you think there is some problem with the formula mentioned here ?
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