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When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 18 Aug 2009
by classic posts
Rayoflight wrote in When to tell a friend to wake up on 18 Aug 2009.
Two metaphors:

    The organization is the wife, the friend/"lover" is the mistress. The Brahmin never marries the mistress and always goes back to the wife.

    The organization is a drug and the Brahmin is an addict. The "friend/lover" is the "spouse" but the addict always goes back to the drug and eventually the couple/family breaks up and the "friend/lover" loses their loved one.
ex-l wrote:They are deeply psychically corded to the god spirits of the BKWSU.
And it is VERY difficult to break that cord. I know because I went through it and the only reason I finally broke it was because of sheer determination and will.

I watched how my life was no longer mine. How my vision became clouded. I have always had strong intuition but I could no longer see anything. I was wasting away mentally, physically and emotionally. How could this be God's will, for God's sake?

It felt like angry spirits were following me around and causing blockages and problems for me because I was starting to realize the truth about the BK and telling people about it. Strange things like something pulling me down so I would fall to the ground suddenly. Wasps sneeking up out of nowhere and stinging me. I was always sick. Work blocks, friend blocks. I thought I was going crazy.

There were negative (dare I say evil?) spirits causing me to think that I was useless. But did it deter me or scare me away? No. In fact, it confirmed that this was definitely not a Godly operation. I was once so nauseously sick at a retreat that I stayed in bed all night. Then something very strange happened. I was miraculously better within an hour and got up as if I'd never been sick.

I prayed fervently to be released from this cord and then also experienced real healing miracles. That's when I knew there were all kinds of spirits out there. Those that worked for the BK and those that worked for God. I chose God and was finally freed. But these were subtle and spooky experiences that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

However, the fear is real and keeps many people from leaving because of the many threats in the Murli against "traitors" who leave the BK family and worse of all, Baba. I am here to say that once I cut the cord and became clear of what was going on, I let those spooks know that I was not afraid of them and to leave me the **** alone. With the help of God, I did get out and nothing bad happened.

It is not a Hollywood horror film. The worst fear is in our imagination and of course the manipulation in the Murli does a good job at sending all kinds of fear based messages into the unconscious mind. But once you realize you've been brainwashed, you just have to find the courage to face those ghosts and tell them to take a hike. As Franklin D. Roosevelt's famous quote states: "There is nothing to fear, but fear itself."

I would suggest compiling a list of provocative questions for newcomers who meet BK's for the first time and especially center heads who have mastered the talk.

Here are some examples:

    1. Are you honestly happy?
    2. Are you free to be yourself?
    3. Is this the dream you had for yourself as a child?
    4. What brought you here?
    5. What keeps you here?
    6. What does your family think of your involvement?
    7. Do you see yourself retiring here?
    8. Do you think your Brothers and Sisters care about you?
    9. What do you do for fun?
    10. Do you stay in touch with your childhood/university/work friends?
jannisder wrote:well, he told me even a long time ago while I was still hopeful. "I am already married, I give the last time of my life to my spiritual Father".
You know jannisder, I once had a conversation with one of my dear BK friends and he told me that when he first joined, he made himself a promise: never to marry the BKWSO. I just looked at him and thought, but you are married to the BKWSO. Don't you see??

So what happened? My guess is he cannot get out. He is trapped and anytime he tries to get out he gets blocked. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. The Seniors, the spooks, the Murlis, they're all prepared to cause whatever drama is necessary to block anyone who wants to leave, especially this Brother who was much too valuable to them. They say that everybody is free to leave if they want to, only because they know that the dirty work is all done subtly and incognito.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 28 Oct 2015
by Mann
I have felt the same issues I feel I am facing something very big energy. Ever since I have noticed that I cannot live at the center while simultaneously questioning the Gyan, I have been sick. And worse is this "voice" inside telling me smart, cunning things to be convinced of continuing being in it. It's a trap ... an evil, ugly trap.

After reading the above post I have realised for the first time that this "voice" I am taking advises from is not God but different from it.

Now I wonder whenever somebody gets badly treated they go to Baba's room and the same voice must be telling them to just continue being in spite of all "do not worry child, you are a wise soul. They are numberwise. Baba loves etc etc". And then they come out as if they were given an injection of anaesthesia. And the abuse continues. The Murli, red light, drishti, toli, letter-chart writing are all a part of the hyponsis ...

I feel like I have woken up ... !!

Can the Admin please give me the author's contact (of this article) I wish to know more and clarify the doubts. I have been searching for similar experiences for nearly an year.

I want to ... really want to leave. But it feels like spirit/s is holding me back here. I am suffocated ... I need to break free.

Please ... please I need some help.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 28 Oct 2015
by ex-l
Rayoflight is here: account links.

You can try emailing them or sending them a private message via the website. It will be forwarded to them. Then it is up to them whether they want to reply (however, perhaps they might have changed email address).

When you look at the power of some stage hypnotists the power of these "voices in your heard", inabilities to move, even feeling your body is controlled are not surprising. I'd guarantee they are 99.9% all in your own mind and do not have any real power over you at all.

All you need to do is put one foot in front of the other.

There is one part of BKism which is quite true, that sanskars become deeper the more you do something. Therefore, the more you submit, the deeper the sanskar of submitting becomes.

Sometimes all that is needed is just to do the complete opposite of what BKism teaches and see what happens. Break all the new fears they - and you - have inserted inside your mind.

I was semi-trapped for perhaps 10 years after leaving the BKWSU because of stupid half-fears about Destruction. That "What if ..?" voice. I had no idea at the time that they had faked up many false predictions of Destruction to hook and exploit other generations of BKs before me. And that they have failed.

It's just all hooks to keep people stuck to them, to provide them with money and comforts, and make them feel good about themselves, e.g. to sustain the belief that *they* are enlightened, future gods and goddess or angels etc.

It's insane.

I would say 100%, the spooks have no power over you, it's all just a fog in your own mind. If you have the money, or can go back to your family or old friends ... drop everything and run tomorrow.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 29 Oct 2015
by Pink Panther
ex-l wrote:I was semi-trapped for perhaps 10 years after leaving the BKWSU because of stupid half-fears about Destruction. That "What if ..?" voice.

The biggest "what if” we need to ask ourselves is ”What if I am not so special but am just an ordinary sucker, just the same as every person who’s ever lived who sincerely believed in something or someone and one day finally saw beyond it?”

The vagaries of abstract and "spiritual" ideas, the infinite ways such things can be defined and moulded so that one is ”sure” of them only as per one’s own ideas and beliefs shaped by the suggestions and acceptance found in cultish ”groupthink” that demands we suspend disbelief; all of this kind of dynamic distracts us from those things we can be sure of, that are the essence of capital ‘L' Life.

If someone cannot feel spirituality in the ordinary, without needing some external agent or consideration to feel wonder and joy, I would question their ability to know life’s essence, let alone talk about it or ”teach” it.

That is, there are more than enough basic and undeniable things - things that matter (and I use that word ”matter” specifically for all its meanings) that we are sure of will need time and attention for ”a good life”; so why spend so much time chasing after the infinite number of transcendent ”possibilities" dangling like a carrot on a stick before a donkey, forever unattainable as it plods towards its ever-receding promise. We are led by the nose by our desires for superiority, our ”spiritual” ideas fool us.They have no substance, just a psychological reality we choose to invest in them because we desir them to be true.
"Thought is a means of concealing truth, despite the fact that it's an extraordinarily useful faculty."

- Alan Watts, audio: "Veil of Thoughts" ~
Joseph Campbell in Pathways to Bliss wrote:"What I think is that a good life is one hero journey after another. Over and over again, you are called to the realm of adventure, you are called to new horizons. Each time, there is the same problem: do I dare?

And then if you do dare, the dangers are there, and the help also, and the fulfillment or the fiasco. There’s always the possibility of a fiasco. But there’s also the possibility of bliss.”

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 30 Oct 2015
by ex-l
Interesting ... at around 8:30, Alan Watts talks about Hindu practices ... meditations ... which start with the declaration, "I am not the body, I am not my feelings, I am not my thoughts, I am the witness" etc.

One related thought, and a question for Mann.

Firstly, it is to remember how we are all just human and humans are really not individual creatures; that is to say, in each of us we have a variety of "sockets" to connect to our mother and Father, our closest family, our community and even distance concepts such as national identities. We basically come pre-fitted with all these needs and functions.

What the BKs do is to radically cut, or gradually dissolve, all of those connections with non-BKs sources and encourage their re-connect to "Official" BK sources ... which they control. Your family is replaced by the BK family. Your Brothers and Sisters with BK Brothers and Sisters ... your national loyalty with the "BK World Domination" and so on at ever level.

They may say "have every relationship with Baba" but quickly slip in the Dadis and a mother figure and a ready made family at your local centre. And once those connections become strong, it can be difficult to tear oneself away from them, just out of habit and the fear or pain of loss, nothing more mystic than than.

I can say that I hung on for a lot longer than I should have just because of the friendships and connections I had ... and the Kirpalani Klan had a monopoly and control over. Their tendrils, their strings, were controlling my world. Indeed, it was not my world, I was in their world, their puppet play.

The lesson I took was that "following the Father" does not mean being a slave to conformity, copying and obeying the Kirpalani Klan and financing their delusions of grandeur ... it was making my own world and learning my own lessons as Lekhraj Kirpalani did. Lekhraj Kirpalani did not really follow anyone. He strode off on his own. He made his own successes and mistakes, learned his own lessons ... but they are not yours.

My question to Mann is how does this fit in India? India is a very different environment to the West. Do the BKs provide for Indian a better collective experience to individuals, women in particular, that is worth giving up all the rest for?

When I knew the BKs, they were still relative poor and had none of their mega-buildings, luxury retreats and so on. They were still at the "local shop" or household movement level. Now, by buying into BKism, you gain access to a great collective wealth ... or do you?

Do individual BKs have any liberty within the commonwealth of the PBIVV? Or are there senses of ownership and exclusivity within the BK elite ... their oft mentioned "Kingdoms" with rulers and subjects?

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 03 Nov 2015
by Mann
Yes ... that right, ex-l. I am the witness!

The different aspect of my experience is that I have not been connected to any center. Neither to any Sister/Brother or Dadi. I came in contact with brahmakumaris while I was working abroad and since my job required travelling so I followed Murlis on the internet. Can you believe I saw the Dadis for the first time after I decided to surrender..!!

In a way it's a blessing because no BKs is part of my emotional or social family. All the people who are important to me are still non BKs. I did not preach this knowledge to them. I wanted someone to have impartial observations in case my decision to surrender backfired

When I was living abroad I didnt have any BKs to spend time with because of the erratic job timings and since I came back to India I could not connect to any BKs because of the huge culture gap .. Different diet, language, mannerism, system ... It's like I am living in China. The only thing that's common is Murli ..

Besides I am not a very emotional person.

So now I am not tearing away from anything ... I am free.

The answer to your question, ex-l, of whether BKs provide for Indian a better collective experience to women to give up all the rest (how do you pick up "quotes" from other's post) .. I would say in comparison to my experience of BK centers all over the world and in India, the sustenance is poor in India. Whenever I visited any center around the world I was given a royal treatment by their standards. They would just be so glad when I would call in advance to know about the Murli class timings ... Most of the countries where there are not many Indians, the centers had very few or no BKs (Munich in 2012 had no regular BK). So that explains it.

I think because I got to spend very little time at each of the countries, cities I have visited so I always have seen the best of the Sister/Brothers. Or probably they were genuinely nice people ... There are so many nice people in the world...!!

Indian women surrender because most of them have grown up in Gyan ... And since they did not want to get married, not many are educated, confident of having a career by themselves, they basically had to choose between marriage and surrendered life.

I know two more of such Kumaris who are facing the same dilemma now. These two are educated but are not confident of living alone for the rest of their lives. And their parents feel stigmatized by their extended families for not getting the daughters married off. It's a pity, but for some Indian families daughters are like a burden to passed off as soon as they are of the right age. The proportion of happily married women is reducing very drastically.

I have been associated with welfare projects and now that I will have more time I can do much to help women become more confident.

Once a Sister (let's say Sister "A") who was surrendered and later left the center, got married, had a child too came to visit the same center where she used to be. The junior Sister who lived with me, let's say "B" (she used to be a young Kumari who would visit center sometimes when "A" was at the center) gave her a cold look but went ahead and chatted for a while. "A" did not look very happy. She had come to the evening meditation with her son. But the ones in white saris were also not very happy either.

"B" listened to her and after the class was over we went to prepare dinner. "B" said she is so glad that she did not get married. Else she too would have been crying even after "serving" her husband every day. At least in the center she did not have to become impure and cry ... She meant "A" became impure and was miserable and "B" was pure and sometimes miserable.

"B" was proud of the fact that Baba is right when he says in the Murli "those who leave him will cry tears of blood" and she had nothing more than pity for "A" ... she felt "A" had to suffer for the choice she made.

Stories like these are circulated around to frighten more Kumaris to surrender and to keep the surrendered ones in tight reins.

Yes, surrendered ones do have liberty within PBIVV or let's say there are categories in it. It depends on which one is good at bringing VIPs, money (that's the no 2 category after the in-charge), how cunning-smart one is in throwing tantrums ... For ego, "I will not travel by train, if I am not flying, I would not go for service" ... Yes, the educated, mature Sisters coming to live at the center do demand luxuries. And they threaten to leave if those demands are not met ...

There are no fixed rules. Everything goes case-by-case ...

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 03 Nov 2015
by ex-l
You know, it is possible to have a long and happy marriage, even in India.

I wonder sometimes if was there not such a background of women lacking personal, social and sexual liberties in India ... and having unhappy arranged marriages ... would BKism have taken off at all? Not just a sort of rejection but a feminine revenge on a dominantly masculine society.

But, in a way, that only underlines how bizarre it is as the cult was, started by a man who carried out a sexually active marriage into his 50s, and enjoyed intimacies with the early young female adherents taking one of them as his spiritual wife.

(Perhaps you don't know but he "married" Om Radhe).

You raise a very important issue we have not explored before, what happens to daughters who want to leave, study, get a career when their mother or both their parents are in BK? Obviously they won't be so keen to allow them or give a dowry (it is actually said in the Murli not to). They must be subjected to significant pressures to conform.

Are you suggesting that they are outcast or abandoned?

I remember a case not so long ago, I think it was in Dehli, of some Sisters being pulled up by the leaders for amassing too many comforts in their centers for their own use, e.g. large TVs, sound systems etc but the whole system is highly lacking in equality and transparency.

Your image of Sister throwing tantrums to get even more luxuries such as free flights amused me. How "divine"! We read that the top Sisters have started to travel business class too. They are acting as if they are popstars or Bollywood.

There was another interesting chapter where BK followers got sick of BK teachers treating their centres as their own kingdoms, and so the BK leaders moved them around from one centre to the next. After a short time, the BK teachers became so unhappy they complained so much so they would to be moved back to "their" centre.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 03 Nov 2015
by Pink Panther
... she felt "A" had to suffer for the choice she made.

There are many who have chosen BK life and persevere with it even when they aren’t happy any more. They cannot reconcile that someone else had the gall to go off, have a relationship, enjoy sex and have a child ... and then show their face again!! Outrageous!

If this person comes back to BKs, such small minded 'long-suffering' BKs feel psychologically obliged to not allow the returnee to believe they can just return without consequence, they can’t have 'the best of both worlds'. So they are impelled by their own insecurities to make the other feel lesser.

To keep their own chronic ”sacrifice” bearable, they feel the need to remind the other one that they ”fell into impurity” so therefore they cannot be happy, let alone more satisfied than those who have ”stayed strong”. It is as twisted envy, a kind of passive-aggressive revenge - "I’ll show you”.

The returnee can be influenced by the culture to accept that judgement of ”moral failure” and adopts the attitude of humiliated shame expected of them so they will be accepted, like gorillas bow their heads to submit to the alpha male and be allowed to be part of the group.

This kind of shaming, moralising, abuse of power positions etc can lead to tragedies including suicide. Fortunately many are able to shrug off such pettiness and can see the BKs for what they are and stop submitting.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 04 Nov 2015
by ex-l
Do you think Brahma Kumari teachers have any jealousy over women who do have young children?

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 04 Nov 2015
by Pink Panther
Surely among those hundreds of thousands, some would.

How aware one is of one's feelings and any suppression mechanisms and what is done with that awareness (if any) would be more important than the fact that they had such a feeling.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 04 Nov 2015
by kmanaveen
In my experience, the longing to see the "weak bricks" fail, regret, and return to centers was very strong in most of the BKs; in particular those who were there for more than 2-3 years. In seeing others fail, they see the worthiness of them still being BKs when their natural biology and psychology was so against it. Some cases were openly discussed and with a shine in their eyes telling "see did not I tell you ... they will cry tears of blood".

These expressions so visible on their faces were very disturbing for anyone who was there just to seek spirituality. To the few centers in India which I just visited by chance, I did not find many people around. Moreover, I was surprised when I heard many voices against going to a BK center in the city where I visited a friend.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 05 Nov 2015
by Pink Panther
Good points kmanaveen,

Encouraging BKs to do ”service”, i.e. to try to convert people to BK, is most valuable as a method of making BKs invest more of their time and energy into BKs, and have them continually rationalising to themselves why anyone would want to be a BK, giving more reasons, more conditioning to continue on.

Gyan is cunning in how it manipulates ego. Gyan explains that only 900,000 people out of billions will ever be true BKs. It is an exclusive, very special club that only ”special” people will understand - those who were "deities".

This explains why few listen and even fewer convert, thereby reinforcing the logic of Gyan for a ”serviceable” BK. Even failure to convince someone reinforces that ego of being special, because those who hear Gyan from you but don't accept it are ‘destined” to be devotees of your deity form in the "next Kalpa”. It’s not you or what you are selling that is lacking, it is them.

If others become convinced by you enough to attend a course or an event, if they take ”some benefit” but don't become committed BKs themselves, they will become your subject ”next Kalpa". Another step up the status ladder for you; another ego sugar hit.

Of course, the ego is clever, it doesn’t allow such thoughts in these blatant terms. Thoughts are verbalised as "becoming closer to God, being more obedient, following Sri Mat better"and so on. The unconscious mind of course knows when it is being tricked and it is why BKs avoid any activity that allows the boundaries between the conscious ego self and unconscious self to become less rigid.

Those who do become full BKs can ”go fast” and get ahead in ”the rosary” of other BKs who’ve been around longer (i.e. claim a higher status in Golden Age than them) by doing even more ”service” (investing time, money, energy) in BKs, proselytising more and better yet, converting more people than the BK who introduced them!!

But as you say Kamnaveen, nothing makes a BK feel more convinced of their own virtue and choices to continue as a BK through ”tests of drama” than to ”see” their ownr ”promotion” up the ranks through the failure of others, those who leave temporarily or permanently, especially those who’ve been BK longer or respected by Seniors in the BK world. When they leave (fail) everyone behind moves up a station. But better is to when they return, trying to redeem themselves in the terms of the PBKIVV.

Of course, nothing makes such BKs work harder at having to convince themselves of their choice to stay BK as seeing others leave then blossom as people living happier and fuller lives than what they had as BKs. They have to tell themselves Gyan points that only someone who is of a lower status would feel happier out of BKs than in it, to be happy in ”Kali Yuga” is a ”soul of fewer births”. It's all an outrageous ego-wank.

Re: When to tell a friend to wake up

PostPosted: 24 Sep 2017
by Maui
It truly is outrageous ... I was emerged with many BKs into a discussion of this re: a BK who left. When I heard all the comments of status, how special they felt, how sad for the one who left as she will be a servant to another, their elevated sense of virtuousness was nauseating.

There was care and concern for this Sister, but primarily it was their own ... she was "now lost in Kali Yug".

I have also recently traveled oversees and visited a few centers ... I, too, did not see any students. At one center, it was closed. At another the center in charge was lovely and inviting ... and said at this time, there were few students but a huge "benefactor" who supports the center.