Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year Cycle

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ex-l

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post19 Jan 2013

Roy wrote:Why not! You believe the world probably came about by chance ... if it did not, why shouldn't it be 5,000 years exactly?

It's a question of probability, nothing in nature is as neat, tidy and regular as the BKs want to make the Universe with their symbolic numbers ... and there are no known mechanisms in the universe to bring about such changes within such a short and regular time frame like a heart beat. Further more, we know how long trees take to grow, simple volcanic rocks take to harden, DNA to mutate etc, and from that we can extrapolate likely timescales.

Unless you introduce "wand waving magic", there is no way you can fit it all in. Of course, there may well be wand waving magic, it may well be that this entire universe if just 'imagined' and can be 're-imagined', that it is not real at all ... but that is not what the BKs teach either.

Actually, I probably think the world came about *before* chance even existed but, yes, it has developed since in a more highly random manner than we can conceive ... which is why we look to religions such as the BKs to give us simple, symmetrical answers and to make a feel more mentally comfortable.

You could try reading, 'Endless Universe: Beyond the Big Bang' - Rewriting Cosmic History by Professors Paul J. Steinhardt and Neil Turok. It's another more scientific view of cyclic cosmology that discusses the problems of inflationary cosmology (simple Big Bang theory).

Or listen to a radio show, here: Forget the Big Bang Theory. Notice how mild and humble even Turok, professor of mathematical physics at Cambridge University, is. Far from the picture you painted.
I think the challenge we’re raising is that the usual picture of the Big Bang is based on an assumption which is that time, space, matter, energy, everything began at the Big Bang. And that assumption was made in the 60s when people got the first strong observational evidence that the Big Bang happened. But it's really just an assumption and our point of view has come out of new development in physics which are enabling us to describe the behaviour of matter in very extreme conditions such as were present around the Bang. And what we’re seeing is that the Big Bang doesn’t have to be the beginning of time. It’s perfectly possible that the Big Bang was just a violent event in a pre-existing universe.

- Neil Turok

Personally, I don't have a strong interest in any theory. For me, there is today, tomorrow and perhaps another 20 years. It's not my job.
Or so you believe! Where did they get these numbers from? ... myself and others, have no trouble at all with a 5000 years cycle.

They dreamed their myths and legends and imagined their symbolic numbers. There are load of symbolic numbers in every culture of the world which don't crop up in BK Knowledge, where did they get their numbers from?

I know what you are going to say here, what the BKs teach, that Hinduism is a partial memory of BKism. I say BKism has just turned Hinduism on his head and gave it a good shake, stole a few of its easier terminologies and symbolic numbers and made a religion out of them with Lekhraj Kirpalani as its god.

Time is correct as it is. BKism comes after and has borrowed from Hinduism. It continues to take its cues from outside sources and then claims them for itself. Today I learned that the term "sevadhari", which the BKs used, is used in Sufism ... and, of course, Sufism was common in the Sind where Lekhraj Kirpalani came from. From that, as with the idea of "Maryadas" coming from Sikhism, I can surely accept that the words and concepts came from outside and elsewhere.

Again, it comes down to very high probabilities. Krishna was a terrible thief. All the stories in Hinduism tell you so. Look out for the clue.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post19 Jan 2013

I was searching for a video on The Big Bang. This is kind of 'on topic' and BK friendly humour ...

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:Or listen to a radio show, here: Forget the Big Bang Theory. Notice how mild and humble even Turok, professor of mathematical physics at Cambridge University, is. Far from the picture you painted.

I did not say all scientists were egomaniacs. I quite enjoyed this conversation, especially as it was so civil and well handled by the host. What did come out of this conversation though; is that all the stuff being taught in schools as scientific fact, is simply theory and assumptions. Yes, the scientists are trying to make sense of it all, but they haven't got there yet, and may never achieve their goal. There is nothing the scientific community has to offer at the moment, that makes me doubt the teachings of RajYoga ... in fact, the more I look into this area, the more firm I find my belief becoming.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

Roy wrote:What did come out of this conversation though; is that all the stuff being taught in schools as scientific fact, is simply theory and assumptions. Yes, the scientists are trying to make sense of it all, but they haven't got there yet ...

I agree and I think it supports what I have said earlier: we do not know.

My view on the BK 5,000 years cycle differs from yours however. I like the idea of a self-contained cycle spinning indefinitely on itself but to me it is simply another theory. Even when I believed that it was God given knowledge I never took the number 5,000 literally, nor any other number within the BK beliefs (8, 108, 16,108 ...). Even if I considered that historians could have gotten some of it wrongly I always thought that it was hard to squeeze all of the known history within 2,500 years.

The BK 5,000 years model also raised many questions to which it had no credible answers. The PBK model tried to address some of them but it never appealed to me.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

All the best scientists say, we do not know. In fact, knowing what one does not know is the cornerstone of science ... knowing when one does not know and sticking to one's limits. That is why ethical non-specialists will not answer about things they are not expert it whereas high school teachers and undergraduate might wade in like local preachers to a theological debate.

I wanted to clarify one thing about what I said about much of our lives being utterly random. I do believe that ... from our limited human point of view. I believe we desperately seek meanings and explanations for things which "just happened" and that there are vast limitations to the sphere of activities that the theory of karma and the power of our minds can effect ... theories no BK so far has been able to fully explain the 'mechanics of how they works' nor 'through what medium they works'.

(Discussion of karma philosophy is for a separate topic, please).

However, from a universal or macrocosmic point of view, it would be clear that we were subject to huge forces and patterns happening far beyond any human control and influence; whether it is a Japanese tsunami, cosmic radiation storms, or even the force of the universe swirling and expanding and cooling around us like fluids.

The Brahma Kumaris just give you any old answer to plug your mind and then tell you to stop questioning.

I am quite happy existing in such a random and beyond our control universe and with the idea that human existence is as insignificant as the life of molds (a life form that will outlive us and carry on evolving long after we have died off after having destroyed most of the natural resources of our planet and ourselves). The universe is mutating randomly and so, largely, are our genes. Internal and external, changing all the time.

It's a shame the BK inner circle never asked Lekhraj Kirpalani or their god to clarify why and where his ideas came from instead of worship him ... but then what can you expect given their background? I too say the 5,000 years is a symbolic figure and taken from Hindu Bhakti. A shorthand for 'the last time Krishna was here'. The coincidences are too strong. Vallabhacharyan sect Lekhraj Kirpalani's wife belong to was Krishna based. It's very likely he would know the legend as it ties in with the Kurukshetra War (Mahabharata).

In the meanwhile, it would be good if those with 'official' connection go back to their masters and ask them for an 'official statement' on these matters. Be specific, get down to detail. Don't be conned by the old " it's the experience which is important" number. Ask for facts.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

A sad article which documents how fossil thieves and illegal dealers are destroying evidence and giving ammunition to the Creationists by faking up fossils, e.g. National Geographic having to recant and apologise for its reporting of one but the hype fuelled the creationists who stubbornly insist that birds cannot be dinosaurs.
Authentic, well-studied fossils have confirmed over and over again that birds are just one kind of dinosaur, but fundamentalists still trot out "archaeoraptor" to insist that scientists cannot be trusted. Black market fossils can hurt science in an unfortunate array of ways.

It made me think of a useful exercise for BKs and PBKs. Of course, I understand they want do it because it might raise questions about their faith but we can add it to the list of 'flags on the moon', 'light travelling backwards', 'satellites past Jupiter' and ancient histories of China, Egypt and so on.

All we need to do is take maps of the global spread of human and dinosaur fossils and see where they exist.

Now, by the BK theory, only India exists during the Gold and Silver Age except for a few island where BK centers were (quote-unquote). Human evolution is wrong, so no such fossils can exist and Dinosaurs only existed briefly 2,500 years ago. The common place idea is that the nuclear power stations of the Gold and Silver Age exploded and caused genetic mutations.

I had one formerly leading BKs tell me that the BK deities actually flew around in the last of their flying machines shooting them all and suggesting that there was evidence of this!

Here are a couple of such maps, the first based on Antonio Snider-Pellegrini work, who noted that the shapes of continents on opposite sides of the Atlantic Ocean fitted together. The second is the spread of the human fossil record from its beginnings in East Africa. I am not saying it is evidence the BKs are wrong, but I think they do have the onus on them to supporting and explain their claims.

How strong do you think the earthquakes would be to move India from its original position to the current position, and the tsunamis it would cause, and would there not be a record of that too?

Snider-Pellegrini_Wegener_fossil_map.png
Global spread of fossils
Snider-Pellegrini_Wegener_fossil_map.png (90.42 KiB) Viewed 8081 times

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Human fossil record
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

bkti-pit wrote:I agree and I think it supports what I have said earlier: we do not know.

That is true in terms of scientific investigation by human beings ... but because I have acquired faith in God Father Shiv, through the Sakar, Avyakt, and now clarification Murlis ... I believe it when He tells us, that the drama cycle is literally of 5000 years duration.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

You have a bigger problem of 'original design' in the BK/PBK Knowledge. Really their only answer is, "it just happened that way" ... the magic wand response. You increase the probability factor from developing a simple cellular state, which everyone accepts is very high to a *hugely* complex and developed "perfect" state.

One point Dawkins makes as an evolutionary biologist is that hugely complex, refined and intelligent things always come at a later point ... and are built up to over generations and generation. In short; things get better, not worse.

The way science work is that it filters out competing hypotheses until it discovers what is then considered the standard model. New disciplines emerge as knowledge increases, e.g. hierarchic thermodynamics or macrothermodynamics to deal with the problems of a general theory of existence.
Roy wrote:I believe it when He tells us, that the drama cycle is literally of 5000 years duration.

Do the Veerendra Dev Dixit's clarification Murlis really say that and encourage people not to question it, or is he just being faithful to the BKs' Murlis for whatever reason he is inspired to do so? For example, sticking within and not questioning the BK paradigm to do his work on BKs?

It seems to me you've been conditioned by the BKs and then entropy and the comfort of meditating in your armchair has just set in. It's easier not to think.

You believe 5,000 years until he changes it to 8,739 years and then believe that until he changes to to 3 weeks ... because what is rewards is to believe, not question, not think ... just Yoga.

And that for me is what so much of The Knowledge is for; it's not right, it's just a good-enough mental plug and when the mental plug is not good-enough any more, they just modify it a little bit to fit again or add some. It plugs all the simple questions like, "who am I ... what is god ... why am I alive?" and gets people to do more of the yogging.

I wonder if anyone has sat down with Veerendra Dev Dixit and asked him about all this stuff? I mean, he's out there in backside of India not exactly connected to the world of real knowledge or discussion. I wonder if you could get real answers out of him?
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:All the best scientists say, we do not know. In fact, knowing what one does not know is the cornerstone of science ... knowing when one does not know and sticking to one's limits. That is why ethical non-specialists will not answer about things they are not expert it whereas high school teachers and undergraduate might wade in like local preachers to a theological debate.

Fair point, but I feel Richard Dawkins falls in to the later camp, and can come across as much of a fanatic as the religious fanatics he loves to challenge.
(Discussion of karma philosophy is for a separate topic, please).

I'd be interested in discussing karma in another thread.
However, from a universal or macrocosmic point of view, it would be clear that we were subject to huge forces and patterns happening far beyond any human control and influence; whether it is a Japanese tsunami, cosmic radiation storms, or even the force of the universe swirling and expanding and cooling around us like fluids.The Brahma Kumaris just give you any old answer to plug your mind and then tell you to stop questioning.

I'd would also give the same answer that these are the responses of nature or matter, to the thoughts and activities of human beings. Hasn't quantum physics discovered, that the human observer affects the outcome of what he's observing.
I am quite happy existing in such a random and beyond our control universe and with the idea that human existence is as insignificant as the life of molds (a life form that will outlive us and carry on evolving long after we have died off after having destroyed most of the natural resources of our planet and ourselves). The universe is mutating randomly and so, largely, are our genes. Internal and external, changing all the time.

I wasn't, I felt the idea that we as humans were just gene transport systems, was a cold way of looking at the world ... I believed it may be true, but i did not like it.
In the meanwhile, it would be good if those with 'official' connection go back to their masters and ask them for an 'official statement' on these matters. Be specific, get down to detail. Don't be conned by the old " it's the experience which is important" number. Ask for facts.

I don't think any answers are going to come from the BK leaders ... they are Bhakti souls devoted to Brahma Baba Krishna, and not interested in these type of discussions.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post20 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:A sad article which documents how fossil thieves and illegal dealers are destroying evidence and giving ammunition to the Creationists by faking up fossils, e.g. National Geographic having to recant and apologise for its reporting of one but the hype fuelled the creationists who stubbornly insist that birds cannot be dinosaurs.

Birds may well have become mutated into dinosaurs through radiation exposure ... but of course, I believe the birds came first. Scientists as far as I can tell, haven't actually proven anything about evolution; other than at some point, dinosaurs definitely roamed the earth for a while.
Now, by the BK theory, only India exists during the Gold and Silver Age except for a few island where BK centers were (quote-unquote). Human evolution is wrong, so no such fossils can exist and Dinosaurs only existed briefly 2,500 years ago. The common place idea is that the nuclear power stations of the Gold and Silver Age exploded and caused genetic mutations.

I don't hold with that, and would claim it was more likely "earth radiation", that was caused by the semi-cataclysm 2500 years ago.
I had one formerly leading BKs tell me that the BK deities actually flew around in the last of their flying machines shooting them all and suggesting that there was evidence of this!

Great answer, but is suspect, totally wrong! :D
How strong do you think the earthquakes would be to move India from its original position to the current position, and the tsunamis it would cause, and would there not be a record of that too?

The semi-cataclysm of 2500 years ago would have been very powerful ... there is evidence under the oceans, I believe, of the earths crust being dragged apart, so that the continents we know of today emerged. This represents the diversity of human thinking and belief, where as before there was only one kingdom and religion, in the land of Bharat.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post21 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:You have a bigger problem of 'original design' in the BK/PBK Knowledge. Really their only answer is, "it just happened that way" ... the magic wand response. You increase the probability factor from developing a simple cellular state, which everyone accepts is very high to a *hugely* complex and developed "perfect" state.

Who is this everyone? .. Do you mean the majority can accept that a single celled organism capable of surving and replicating itself, somehow spontaneously emerged with dna, mitochondria, nucleous, cytoplasm, cell wall etc etc', and totally opposing the law of entropy, which the universe also somehow managed to do beforehand as it came into being, to make this process possible in the first place ... then became a sophisticated human being over billions of years ... yet many of these same people would happily denounce faith in God as being illogical or blind faith. is not this belief also simply blind faith? There is no evidence to support it, and it is IMO, quite illogical.
Do the Veerendra Dev Dixit's clarification Murlis really say that and encourage people not to question it, or is he just being faithful to the BKs' Murlis for whatever reason he is inspired to do so? For example, sticking within and not questioning the BK paradigm to do his work on BKs?

Firstly, I would argue that they are not actually Veerendra Dev Dixit ji's clarification Murlis but are Father Shiv's narrated through Veerendra Dev Dixit ji. Father Shiv has clarified through Veerendra Dev Dixit ji that The Cycle is 5,000 years in duration. He makes the argument that souls have reached this state of degradation within 5000 years ... so what would happen if it was to run for longer. To believe in a 5,000 year cycle and karma, you do have to believe in the soul and God too ... So if these basic, foundational and most important beliefs are not there ... the rest is surely not going to be taken seriously.
It seems to me you've been conditioned by the BKs and then entropy and the comfort of meditating in your armchair has just set in. It's easier not to think.

Do I appear to you like someone who doesn't think? Would I be debating this topic if I did not want to think? Father Shiv tells us not to accept these things, just because others say they are so ... they should be thought about and your own conclusions and faith acquired. If souls find these things unpalatable that is fine ... but for others they resonate deeply within, as if there is a recognition of truth that was known before, that is once again being recognised.
You believe 5,000 years until he changes it to 8,739 years and then believe that until he changes to to 3 weeks ... because what is rewards is to believe, not question, not think ... just Yoga.

I would be surprised if that happened, and it would be a challenge if it did ... but I don't think it's likely.
I wonder if anyone has sat down with Veerendra Dev Dixit and asked him about all this stuff? I mean, he's out there in backside of India not exactly connected to the world of real knowledge or discussion. I wonder if you could get real answers out of him?

Souls do ask him questions about these matters ... there are hundreds of CDs that testify to this ... The fact a reply has yet to be given that satisfies yourself is another matter. But keep watching, because you never know!
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post21 Jan 2013

Please remember that we are not a virtual BKWSU or AIVV, we are here to help people out or after their BK experience and to alert and inform non-BKs.

If you don't want to move on, and you don't want to do any work here on the boring stuff (like collecting and uploading Murlis and old original documents, developing the knowledgebase etc), then it's not really a place for just chatting about BK things.
Roy wrote:Who is this everyone? ... totally opposing the law of entropy

Everyone from Science to religionists.

Entropy in biological systems is different and I hinted at new disciplines, of which I know nothing, developing to address that idea. It underlines the problem that unless you are part of the process of Science, and keeping up to speed with developments, you are really out of the game ... and I am out of the game. I could throw out a simple answer but coming from me it would be meaningless ... and going to you it would be pointless.

According to Lekhraj Kirpalani 1930s model of the world declining, knowledge, science, technology, quality of life, diversity and so on have improved exponentially in the last 100 years contrary to entropy and contrary to The Knowledge but it has. Contrary to his predictions, the world is a better, far more peaceful place.

I think this also underlines another problem in the old mentality of the BK, (I accept it has actually changed). In the old days, the BKs used to go about "challenging" everyone in that crackpot village pundit mode. Lekhraj Kirpalani/Om Radhe would write a letter to the Pope, or whoever, "challenging him" over his god and religion, and the Pope's lack of answer would be proof their theory was unbeatable. Obviously the recipients of such letters took one look at it, realised it was from a nut, and put it in the bin.

Although their marketing strategies have been refined, the underlying mentality has not; and even you're demonstrating it. There is an 'unshakeable faith' instilled by social rewards but absolutely no effort being made to prove or develop it. It all just boils down to, "feel good". You are encouraged to feel big about not doubting the A, B, C of BKism.

Science spend billions of hours and dollars increasing our knowledge of our world in all areas but the BKs just turn the word upside down and into 'not thinking'. The Knowledge is not having to think, stop questioning, do nothing. The BK leaders are just safe knowing that they can get fat milking the Hindi Wallahs by putting on a god show for a god you would argue is not even there.

All they expend their wealth on is improving their Disneylands to pull in more punters and celebrating themselves.
Hasn't quantum physics discovered, that the human observer affects the outcome of what he's observing.

New Agers tend to deify quantum physics and have turned it into a buzz word. They pretend they know something about it ... but we are still a very, very long way from mind over matter and telekinesis (mind moving matter). As far as I understand, there are numerous hypotheses but few to no standard models yet. I have not a clue what it is, how it work, or what it is for. My practical understanding stops somewhere around the end of 19th Century.

Get the PBKs to do the science, publish a paper, see what the rest of the world thinks.

Dawkins had a book to promote 'The God Delusion'. It created a lot of controversy from the crackpot American Bible Belt to Islam. Meet the guy and chat, when he is not exhausted by idiots, and then tell me what your personal impression in. I don't listen to people who have only ever met someone via the TV or Youtube.
I don't hold with that, and would claim it was more likely "earth radiation", that was caused by the semi-cataclysm 2500 years ago.

You misunderstood that. Specifically, the BKs taught that the "mini-Destruction" cataclysm happen ... the Silver Aged nuclear power stations broke ... they then irradiated nature ... and the dinosaurs and other monsters evolved out of heavenly animals ... then the ex-deities flew around on the last of the vimana flying machines shouting them dead. Funnily enough, the people who told me that was BK JD Boles, Director General of the British Gemmological Institute. He went further to say that the monster in The Epic of Gilgamesh was a human who has also been irradiated.

Of course, there are a various problems with those hypotheses.

How could substances so evil to have such an effect exist in a Heaven on Earth? Who built the nuclear power stations and how? Who mined the elements? Have you ever heard the suggestion of factories in the BKs' heaven on earth? Scientifically speaking, we know how long various radioactive elements take to decay and can measure their effects/half-lives and so we can fairly safely say the power stations did not exist and the whole fairy story is bananas otherwise there would be evidence for them.

The BKs' response to such lines of questioning? "Don't think ... don't question ... slap yourself if you start to doubt ... Brother's Maya", a dismissive wave of the hand and the BK royalty moves on to the next more fruitful donor worshipper.

A few BKs might go through questioning them a bit in the early days and then just give up and join the family business. They know nothing, their ambition is to become idiots (buddhus) ... literally!

The intention of their god is make idiots out of his followers, and nuke everyone else.
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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Years

Post21 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:Please remember that we are not a virtual BKWSU or AIVV, we are here to help people out or after their BK experience and to alert and inform non-BKs. If you don't want to move on, and you don't want to do any work here on the boring stuff (like collecting and uploading Murlis and old original documents, developing the knowledgebase etc), then it's not really a place for just chatting about BK things.

Okay, I shall make this my last post on the forum ... I did not intend to outstay my welcome, but I do tend to make a habit of it! :D
According to Lekhraj Kirpalani 1930s model of the world declining, knowledge, science, technology, quality of life, diversity and so on have improved exponentially in the last 100 years contrary to entropy and contrary to The Knowledge but it has. Contrary to his predictions, the world is a better, far more peaceful place.

Hmm, I am not sure I would agree with that. Yes, science and technology have brought comforts for some, but not for all ... and the cost of this "advancement" has been to totally pollute our environment ... However, this is totally unnecessary, because science/technology is not destructive in itself but man is, when his motivation is simply greed.
Although their marketing strategies have been refined, the underlying mentality has not; and even you're demonstrating it. There is an 'unshakeable faith' instilled by social rewards but absolutely no effort being made to prove or develop it. It all just boils down to, "feel good". You are encouraged to feel big about not doubting the A, B, C of BKism.

I don't associate myself with the BK Yagya, and nor do I in any way defend their way of operating. But I would say the way of God is not to act like a scientist; to analyse the world and create theories about its origins ... He tells us the reality, and we either accept it or reject it ... God doesn't come to create a democracy, where we all pitch in our ideas and come to a consensus ... He comes to create a Kingdom ... God, by definition, is truth; you either recognise His truth or you don't. If you don't like what he says or don't feel it makes sense, then you have the freewill to reject it and seek truth elsewhere. This is a world of freewill ... no-one has to believe in the words of God (and they are free to challenge them), or believe that BK or PBK God is actually God. No-one if forced into becoming a BK or a PBK. Yes, souls get sucked into these institutions, because they believe that they hold the answers to their problems, and are then mentally manipulated in order to be kept in line ... I don't think anyone could argue that this is the way God would operate, and neither would I ... this is the work of human beings once again, revealing how the word of God is used by humans for their own selfish motives, and thus they ultimately defame God in the process.
Science spend billions of hours and dollars increasing our knowledge of our world in all areas but the BKs just turn the word upside down and into 'not thinking'. The Knowledge is not having to think, stop questioning, do nothing. The BK leaders are just safe knowing that they can get fat milking the Hindi Wallahs by putting on a god show for a god you would argue is not even there.

As I think you know by now, I am not a follower of the BK way of doing things; and would never encourage anyone not to think for themselves, and be true to who they really are. If something doesn't make sense to you, or is causing you harm ... then it makes sense to get away from it for your own wellbeing.
Get the PBKs to do the science, publish a paper, see what the rest of the world thinks.

That's not going to happen I am afraid ... either God is going to be revealed in practical form in a few years time, or He is not ... I believe this will be all the proof people need.
You misunderstood that. Specifically, the BKs taught that the "mini-Destruction" cataclysm happen ... the Silver Aged nuclear power stations broke ... they then irradiated nature ... and the dinosaurs and other monsters evolved out of heavenly animals ... then the ex-deities flew around on the last of the vimana flying machines shouting them dead. Funnily enough, the people who told me that was BK JD Boles, Director General of the British Gemmological Institute. He went further to say that the monster in The Epic of Gilgamesh was a human who has also been irradiated.

No, I did not misunderstand, I realised you were talking about a nuclear meltdown through malfunctioning nuclear plants etc. As you have already pointed out ... The AIVV teaches that there will be no need for all of this technology in Heaven, as nature totally serves the needs of the Deities without it. I just thought they were great answers in terms of being imaginative and funny ... not that I felt they had any value.
How could substances so evil to have such an effect exist in a Heaven on Earth? Who built the nuclear power stations and how? Who mined the elements? Have you ever heard the suggestion of factories in the BKs' heaven on earth? Scientifically speaking, we know how long various radioactive elements take to decay and can measure their effects/half-lives and so we can fairly safely say the power stations did not exist and the whole fairy story is bananas otherwise there would be evidence for them.

I agree that this scenario is most unlikely. I think it says in the Avyakt Vanis, that the fruits of science will be for you children; and something about atomic power ... the BKs have then drawn their own conclusions from this, in terms of the Golden and Silver Ages. When I was a BK, I couldn't really understand the need for atomic power; because we were also taught, that nature will serve all our needs without even asking.
The BKs' response to such lines of questioning? "Don't think ... don't question ... slap yourself if you start to doubt ... Brother's Maya", a dismissive wave of the hand and the BK royalty moves on to the next more fruitful donor worshipper. A few BKs might go through questioning them a bit in the early days and then just give up and join the family business. They know nothing, their ambition is to become idiots (buddhus) ... literally!

They forget that they become buddhus in the Golden Age, when there is no longer any need for knowledge ... they are not supposed to become fools in the Confluence Age (see Lakshmi-Narayan picture) ... They have let themselves be brainwashed by the deceptive BK leaders.
The intention of their god is make idiots out of his followers, and nuke everyone else.

That is the intention of the BK leaders, I agree.

Thanks for having me, I've enjoyed our chat! :D
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ex-l

ex-BKWSU

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post21 Jan 2013

Roy wrote:Okay, I shall make this my last post on the forum... I did not intend to outstay my welcome, but i do tend to make a habit of it! :D

Does that mean you refuse the invitation to add benefit by doing some work, as well as chat?

You could add Murli points to the Encyclopedia, for example, or fill in some details about the PBKs there.

Yes, I appreciate that you are not a BK and are throwing your chips in with the PBKs for the next few years. I am not sure how the "manifestation of god" by PBK standards will happen and would be interested to read the details of that prediction and what proof of divinity will be given.

At present I am frustrated that the general level of proof in the BK world is, "God is God because he says so" ... and ... "It is true because we say it is true (even if it is failed or obviously flawed)".

In another topic we are discussing the problems of population increase in the BK/PBK 5,000 Year Cycle. Surely another reason why not to believe in it I would have thought?

Thanks.
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bkti-pit

Independent, free thinking BK

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post21 Jan 2013

From another thread:
howiemac wrote:This document ably exposes some of the simple nonsense that BapDada preaches, a prime and simple example being that Golden Aged couples have one son and daughter each, and yet the population increases from 900,000 to 9 million! Simple primary school arithmetic shows, as the table does, that if each couple have two children, the population will remain stable.

My take on it when I was a believer was that God could not be trusted with numbers, including all numbers related to the 5000 year cycle. Yet I still believed that it had been taught by God and I considered that the overall concept of an identically repeating cycle over a relatively short time span made sense despite it leaving important questions unanswered which to me is no less sensible than believing in a big bang happening 14 billion years ago when there is still so much left to be proven about that.

I have to say that my belief in The Cycle was also supported by my inner experiences, such as my experiences of eternity or the experience of what the BKs call the Soul World but which for me was simply "home", a world beyond time and space which I felt was my original home. These experiences and others supported the concept of I being a soul, coming from a realm beyond matter, originally fully contented and peaceful, having been worn out over many incarnations and now regaining my original plenitude through mental and heart to heart connection with God. It is also worth noting that I began to have such experience s before I knew anything about the BK concept of The Cycle.

I am saying this so readers can understand that for me it was not simply a matter of blind faith or floating around on a cloud of blissful ecstasy I got shaken out of my faith, beliefs and illusions when I came to know that there was no God Shiva concept within the BK world until the 1950's. It became obvious that the story we had been told of God Shiva entering Dada Lekraj and speaking the Murlis through him from 1936 onwards was a lie and that therefore the whole thing was a scam.

It took me a while to come to terms with this reality, sort myself out and finally let go of all BK beliefs. I now consider that spiritual or mystical experiences can be very uplifting and can support healing and self-improvement but, in my opinion, they are not solid ground to prove anything about God, the origin of life and so on.
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