Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year Cycle

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bkti-pit

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post21 Jan 2013

Roy wrote:... either God is going to be revealed in practical form in a few years time, or He is not... i believe this will be all the proof people need.

Fair enough for me.
Let's wait and see!

Thanks for coming around!
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Roy

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post22 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:Does that mean you refuse the invitation to add benefit by doing some work as well as chat? You could add Murli points to the Encyclopedia, for example, or fill in some details about the PBKs there.

No, i am not refusing the invitation to do some work on behalf of the forum; but i took it from your comments, perhaps incorrectly; that my AIVV leanings, are not really what is wanted here; which i completely respect if that's the case. Also, i did not think i had any of the sort of stuff you would want uploaded either. I don't believe i have any Sakar Murlis or Avyakt Vanis, other than you have on the forum, but i can check this. I am working on a project where i am clarifying Murli points using the teachings of the AIVV, with the aim of giving a clearer picture of the Confluence Age. I'd gladly upload this when it is completed, if it is approved by the AIVV head office. I could post some Murli points i have collected under different headings, and there are loads of points the AIVV have collected together, that are available on their website. What sort of details would you want about the PBKs, that aren't available on the official website?
ex-l wrote:Yes, I appreciate that you are not a BK and are throwing your chips in with the PBKs for the next few years. I am not sure how the "manifestation of god" by PBK standards will happen and would be interested to read the details of that prediction and what proof of divinity will be given.

It is my understanding, that until Veerendra Dev Dixit ji becomes complete(the complete angel Shankar); then Father Shiv cannot be revealed in His true form; there will always be a difference between what He teaches and narrates, and the stage and behaviour of His Chariot. Therefore, it is only when the Chariot Shankar, has achieved the bodiless, 100% soul conscious, or incorporeal stage, equal to Father Shiv's; that merely witnessing this phenomena will be proof for all, that God is present in corporeal form. A complete angelic stage, cannot be revealed through invisible bodiless beings like Brahma Baba Krishna, or Mama; it has to be a practical or corporeal revelation(Shivjayanti) that all can witness with their own eyes. Also, along with this; everyone(the whole world) will experience visions, like they did from the beginning of the Yagya, in 1936/7. Of course the only way for this to be possible, is if this takes place through the media, such as tv, and the internet... not everyone can meet God in the flesh of course... But even the experience of God through the media, together with the mass visions; will be enough to convince the whole world, that Shiv Shankar Bholenath, is the true God Father... the God of the Gita in corporeal form.
ex-l wrote:In another topic we are discuss the problems of population increase in the BK/PBK 5,000 Year Cycle. Another reason why not to believe in it I would have thought, surely?

I did a bit of a study of this years ago, and came to the conclusion that the numbers worked, but i believe The Knowledge and numbers i was working with then were wrong, and i've lost my calculations anyway. But since then, i haven't gotten around to giving this topic much focused thought. But i would be interested to take a look at this thread some time; and perhaps make some comments, if i feel i have anything to contribute after some further study; if that's okay?

I haven't come here to simply satisfy my need to chat; i realise i will only be tolerated if i contribute something people are interested in reading, or discussing.
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Roy

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post22 Jan 2013

bkti-pit wrote:Thanks for coming around!

Thanks bkti-pit, i have really enjoyed reading your intelligent, and what i consider, very balanced opinions... as well as reading about your spiritual experiences... you have a lot to contribute to this forum. It seems a shame to me, even though it is totally understandable; that the lies of the BK leaders has undermined your faith in the overall teachings of Father Shiv... But this impure behaviour by them, is actually mentioned in the Murlis; and the project i am working on, will include such points... Perhaps you may read it, if i ever manage to get my act together and complete it. :D But whatever path you take, i wish you all the best.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post27 Jan 2013

A little bit more basic science ... if The Cycle is only 5,000 years old, how are out bodies made from material that has travelled millions of light years?

Where did all the elements come from ... and their energy state be recharged before the beginning of the next cycle if you are to believe in an identical 5,000 years? Where does that additional new energy come from in order to keep overall balance?

An adult human being is made up of around 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms. These are mostly empty space in which each nucleus is comparable to the size of a fly in a cathedral. If you were to lose all your empty atomic space, your body would fit into a cube less than 0.002 cm big. 2 micron or the size of a particle of clay (a human hair is about 75 microns).

Each one of these atoms in our body is billions of years old. The hydrogen was produced in the Big Bang, right at the start of the universe (however old it is). Heavier atoms, such as carbon and oxygen, were made in stars billions of years ago and blasted millions of light year across space when they exploded. Our bodies are literally stardust, and not even our own ... they are cities, or nations of many living things.

There is more bacterial life inside you than human. Around 10 trillion of your own cells are your own, but 10 times more are bacteria and these bacteria and parasites can control us; influencing our moods and actions or dietary cravings, even causing severe mental illnesses and states.

In the BKWSU, we are told to locate our conscious mind roughly behind your eyes, as if there were a little person sitting there steering the car that is our body. All control rests with it they say locating it in the hypothalamus region. In reality, thanks to science and technology, we now know much of the control comes from our unconsciousness, e.g. automatic tasks which are handled one of the most primitive parts of the brain, close to the brain stem.

The information and command control 'traffic' never reaches "the soul" ...

With regards the residents of our bodies and their effect upon our lives, your "Maya" might not even be coming from your brain, never mind your sanskars ... it might simply be coming from what is up your butt. I've never heard that discussed and explored in the BKWSU ... just heard them prescribe, "more Yoga, more Yoga".
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Roy

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post29 Jan 2013

I hope I am not stepping on any toes by posting here again... but i thought these two videos may be of interest to some of the readers who are following this topic...

The big bang never happened pt 3

Big bang fraud

The second video is obviously created by Christians ... but the science that is contained in it, should be judged on its own merits.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post29 Jan 2013

OK, time out.

What you are really trying to do here is just confirm your theory that there is some vast, evil, conspiracy controlling science and hence it is wrong and not trustworthy ... therefore, perhaps just, the Brahma Kumaris 5,000 Cycle might be true, so trust in it.

Malcolm Bowden is evangelical Christian fundamentalist ex-civil engineer who believes God spoke to him personally to tell him that there is no such thing as mental illnesses ... "mental illnesses are merely deliberately created by those suffering from self-pity", and the only effect psychotherapy "is Bible based". He doesn't support BK/PBK theories at all, he will probably think PBKism is Satanic ... how on earth can you base a defence of the 5,000 Year Cycle on someone like that?

Please come back when you are ready to do some work supporting the aims of this website rather than distracting from it ... or at the very least have earned a PhD in some related scientific discipline or another.

The first lesson in learning is knowing what you don't know and admitting. It's not a new idea. It's been kicking around for at least 2,000 Years.
This man, on one hand, believes that he knows something, while not knowing anything. On the other hand, I – equally ignorant – do not believe that I know anything.

- Plato (of Socrates)

Which man are you?
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Roy

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post30 Jan 2013

Okay ex-l, i'll keep my opinions for the bk-pbk forum in future; but others can decide for themselves whether the videos i've posted have any merit, should they wish to take a look at them. They don't have to believe in the 5000 years cycle, just because it appears clear that the Big Bang theory has no real credibility anymore. But i wonder how soon it will be stopped being taught as fact in schools?
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button slammer

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post30 Jan 2013

ex-l wrote:A little bit more basic science ... if The Cycle is only 5,000 years old, how are out bodies made from material that has travelled millions of light years?

So where is the basic science? Where is the proof of 'Big Bang'?
The hydrogen was produced in the Big Bang, right at the start of the universe (however old it is).

Was it? You say 'Science! Science!' but the Big Bang theory is entirely unscientific. Science has to be based on observations based on experience in the world as it is, not some hypothetical notion of some remote time. Science is mainly based on Effect only, there is no mention of Cause.

Big Bang is the same Fiat universe as the creationists - something out of nothing. Gyan is coming from Causation. It answers the question 'How?'

There is nothing random about life.
Please come back when you are ready to do some work supporting the aims of this website rather than distracting from it ... or at the very least have earned a PhD in some related scientific discipline or another.

In the past some PBKs were instrumental in giving evidence against the BKs who were attempting to close this site.
This man, on one hand, believes that he knows something, while not knowing anything. On the other hand, I – equally ignorant – do not believe that I know anything.

- Plato (of Socrates)

What Ph.D did Plato have?
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ex-l

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post30 Jan 2013

button slammer wrote:So where is the basic science? Where is the proof of 'Big Bang'?

Let me check a Murli and the opinions of an uneducated jewellery shop owner if that is the only acceptable proof you'll accept ...

I've put forward my theory of where the 5,000 Year Cycle came from. It came from Hindu Bhakti where it is said Krishna last came 5,000 years ago when the (historic) Kurukshetra War is supposed to happened. Lekhraj Kirpalani believed he was Krishna, therefore that is when he believed he last came.

As I wrote, evolutionary science has no relevance to my life and the experts opinion is that the matter is currently undecided. I know enough to say you are grossly, grossly, crudely misrepresenting the issues.

I said, "come back when you have a PhD" to Roy not as an insult but as an admittance that none of us here have the qualifications and experience to even start discussing either the specific science nor the scientific world and process, never mind brewing up all explaining conspiracy theories. We're like kids playing with building blocks and to lean on whacko Christian Evangelists for support is hypocritical from a BK Knowledge point of view ... remember, they're "ignorant", body-consciousness, unselfrealised etc.
What Ph.D did Plato have?

Ph.Ds were not invented until the late 19th Century and so they could not have had one. Plato and Socrates were philosophers not cosmologists and science has moved on a long way since Ancient Greece, no thanks to religion which basically suppressed it at every step using every means possible ... including blind faith to superstition, murder and life imprisonment. Funnily enough, despite their huge input to the development of Western civilisation, they don't exist with The Knowledge™. BKs and PBKs ought to show the a little more respect.

If you can honestly admit we don't have the qualifications to discuss the hard science of the question, then at least we can agree we can discuss the relationship between religion and science ... and religion's effect on scientific inquiry and free thinking ... on the basis of common sense.
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mail2sundareee

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post31 Jan 2013

Whatever was said about 5000 years concept by Lekhiraj/Gulzar or anyone who is talking at Madhuban, I doubt it was really the soul of God. If science can be accepted by proving, in the same way a newcomer (to BK) need some proof to believe the credibility of voice of God from Gulzar or whomsoever.

With science, we can accept the existence of electricity by switching ON the light.

But how do I believe that God/Soul of some X person talking through some other person?

I asked this question to a Brother in BK, and he replied that, "Everything was said by God and God is above science".

And in The Tree they show (in 7 Days Course), I am wondering why Gandhi is there?
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ex-l

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post31 Jan 2013

mail2sundareee wrote:I asked this question to a Brother in BK, and he replied that, "Everything was said by God and God is above science".

... And that is completely "Bhakti" (blind faith) by BK standards. What sticks with me is how people can believe, not just in such a short number but is such a perfect number ... 5,000 Years - 1,825,000 days - 42,720,000 hours exactly. How on earth can that be determined so identically time and time and time again? BK answer ... it just does.

This is the way they slowly cook your brain into not thinking and not questioning. They start with a "willing suspension of disbelief" and move on to completely duping you and contradicting their own teachings. The 5,000 Year 'click-clock accurate' Cycle becomes an unquestioned, identifying article of faith defying all common sense and plenty of real learning.

Manchester United supporters wear red and believe their team can win the cup ... BKs wear white and believe in 5,000 years. There is no room for interpretation.

If they can get you to accept that, they know they can get you to accept anything. The number of students of The Course in the West who used to drop out after that lesson were so high, they had to stop giving it in the introduction course.
And in The Tree they show (in 7 Days Course), I am wondering why Gandhi is there?

They show him as a little leaf hanging off a small Iron Aged branch called 'Maths and Mandals' meaning 'paths and groups' showing his relatively lowly spiritual status in comparison to their big God Lekhraj Kirpalani Brahma sitting as the Father at the bottom.

In the early days the BKs were very disrespectful of Gandhi calling him "the dictator of the crow race" ... at least after he turned Om Radhe's invitation to come and "gain self-realisation" from the great Pandavs of the Om Mandli.
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Mr Green

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post31 Jan 2013

It's the old arrogance of those who don't listen to the Father rubbish
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ex-l

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post01 Feb 2013

The oldest and largest living organism on earth is 'conservatively' estimated to be 80,000 years old. Some think it could be as many as 1 million years old ... ladies and gentleman, may I introduct into the argue Pando, The Quivering Giant of Utah, USA.

Please bear in mind that according to the Brahma Kumaris, the continent of America did not exist until 2,500 years ago ... except for little islands where the BKWSU centers were located And there are none in Utah.

Details from: Nature magazine. How do the BKs explain that?
Pando, the Trembling Giant

In the Fishlake National Forest in Utah, a giant has lived quietly for the past 80,000 years ago. The Trembling Giant, or Pando, is a enormous grove of quaking aspens that takes the “forest as a single organism” metaphor and make it literal. The grove really is a single organism. Each of the approximately 47,000 or so trees in the grove is genetically identical and all the trees share a single root system.

Quaking aspens usually reproduce asexually, by sprouting new trees from the expansive lateral root of the parent. These individual trees aren’t individuals but stems of a massive single clone and this clone is truly massive, spanning 107 acres and weighing 6,615 ton. Pando was once thought to be the world’s largest organism (now usurped by thousand-acre fungal mats in Oregon estimated to be 8,000 years old), however, is almost certainly the most massive. In terms of other superlatives, the more optimistic estimates of Pando’s age have it as over one million years old, which would easily make it the world’s oldest living organism.
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ex-l

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post07 Feb 2013

"A good theory explains facts and makes predictions which then happen ...".

Not high science, just a discussion amongst near equals across a good spectrum of ideas, including the discussion of the conflict between Young Earth Creationists (less than 6,000 years) versus radical atheistic Darwinism.

(I have to say that although there are some contributors, I did not think the moderator was up to handling this discussion very well ... there were though some great faces pulled during the discussion!).

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leonard

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Re: Why I Cannot Believe in the Brahma Kumaris' 5,000 Year C

Post07 Feb 2013

Just to add that Mr Darwin's materialist theory is challenged by many of scientific persuasion, e.g. biochemists, and discussion continues. Books and articles are there and available. There is even strong disagreement within Darwin believers of how evolution happened. Micro evolution examples are in plenty but evidence of macro evolution, that is to say one species changing to another, seems not yet to be shown. Theory remains theory. Mr Darwin's theory comes in persuasive package and so is easy of acceptance, by general public. But true? That is another thing. As is truth of 5,000 year cycle.
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