Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post16 Nov 2015

I agree with ex-l, I was in BKs after 1976 until early 1990s. Destruction was just as often mentioned as before.

The Murlis of season 1977 (which were my first live Murlis - we sat within 5 metres of ”God” and nearly always had personal meetings, in those days BapDada came two or three times a week for about 4 months, I was there right through January ’77, about 4 weeks. For nearly all those live Murlis, he stated that Destruction did not happen in 76 because BKs were not ready, more effort for service and Yoga needed etc and, if you didn’t buy that explanation, that it was a test to cull out those BKs who were there not because they wanted to make true spiritual effort but because they were concerned about Destruction (who wouldn’t be?). I doubt anybody who were BKs for the 'wrong reasons’ and therefore donated for the wrong reasons were compensated in return, i.e. donations to BKs are like the "indulgences” sold by the Roman Catholic church in the middle ages, buying better karma, a better place in heaven. This line was particularly used for business people etc who’d ask how could they fit more Yoga and service into their busy lives. Easy - it’s called profit shifting. In many countries, BKs set themselves up (fraudulently I’d argue) as registered charities - but thats another subject.

BTW, ex-l has pointed out (with documentation) that it was during the definite 1976 predictions that the BKs acquired much property in the UK and elsewhere. Why would they do that? I sat in those properties many times, knew they were acquired then but did not exercise my critical faculties to ask the obvious questions that should raise.

When a small group of (maybe 25) foreigners had a special, closed meeting in the ”history hall” in Madhuban, around 1979-1980 at the height of the Cold War, I asked ”BapDada” directly, face to face, a question, paraphrasing ”all the means are ready, when will Destruction happen?”

The answer from (cough, ahem) God was ”When BKs are ready, more effort is needed”. The sri mat after that, spoken in many Murlis and classes, was that whenever Destruction was mentioned to ”be god conscious not date conscious”.

Another date let circulate and not quashed by Murli or Seniors, but rather encouraged, was 1986 - 50 years after the establishment of the Om Mandli, based on the idea of 100 years for Confluence Age, 50 years for Destruction, 50 years for construction”. That is, 1986 should have been the culmination of the end of Kali Yuga, Destruction - and the foundation of Sat Yuga. We were all fed stories that Mama (who died in 1965) would soon become known with others in the "Advance Party" and she was to be Krishna’s mother as he’d be 30-31, i.e child bearing age (today she’d be post-menopausal).

I can tell you that in the year 2000, there was concerted preparations by BKs to prepare for Destruction - they were advised to stock up on supplies, eg tinned food, batteries, water, camping equipment for cooking etc. A similar thing happened for 2012 - the Mayan calendar stupidity that many latched onto. If BKs knew better than the agyani New Age believers, they did nothing to make themselves stand out fro the crown, they too followed like sheep.

To ”demand” property is of course ”unspiritual”. Make people feel there is benefit in donating and they will donate.
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because.parmeshwar

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post16 Nov 2015

1. Yes BapDada did speak of destruction to have happened in 1976 but it did not happen because Brahmins were not ready. After that there was no mention of destruction ever again.

This statement is totally ridiculous and a whitewash.

In my days (1996 to 2010), there was great emphasis on Destruction coming shortly and we people literally started the storage of grains and eatables in our home. There was a official letter received from Dadi Prakashmani advising all followers to keep the sufficient amount of eatables, water and kerosene as very soon the time is coming and nobody will be able to move out of their houses. It was clear mention of year 2000 in Dadi Prakashmani’s class here

On 19.02.2010 I posted a detailed class of Suraj Bhai on the topic of destruction and uploaded the same on Youtube here (video seems to be removed by now). However, I am again giving you the points he has mentioned in his class and claimed that they all are extracted from Sakar, Avyakt, and subtle signals given by Baba.
The audio is a clip from Surajbhai’s class “Saral aur Teevra Purshartha Kaise Kare” where he has clearly mentioned that this dates/versions he has extracted from Sakar, Avyakt, and subtle signals given by Baba.

Approximate English translations

0:19 : Those who know how to make benefit of time (BKs are expert in it)
03:50 : The Confluence Age has started from 1936 and it will last till 2036. (This includes Construction, Destruction and Establishement of deity kingdom)
05:52 : By 2036, the Deity will establish their kingdom DEFINITELY. 1994-95 are the most precious years for making efforts.
06:40 : 1996 onwards the work of Destruction and overtion which will be finished in 5 to 7 years.
07:05: By 2003-2003 all play of Destruction will be finished followed by Jai-Jai Kar and overtion ofShivBaba, The Knowledge, and all great 8 souls which will continue as emperors in the new world. All this work will be finished. Then the nature will calm down finally the establishment of deity kingdom in 2036.
BKs are requested not to suggest that Oh ... these are the views of Surajbhai (an incomplete soul which obvious do errors). Because Suraj Bhai himself has clearly mentioned that these dates/versions he has extracted from Sakar, Avyakt, and subtle signals given by Baba.
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clearofBK

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post25 Nov 2015

Mann wrote:Thanks Maria !

I have finally left the center. Nobody wanted me to leave. The students/followers were nearly in tears ... I was given a beautiful farewell, received many gifts and blessings too. I was invited to dinner by one of "the Seniors" of the Yagya. I had a long conversation with them. And I used the opportunity to clear questions I have read here.
In short the answers are as follows :
    1. Yes BapDada did speak of destruction to have happened in 1976 but it did not happen because Brahmins were not ready. After that there was no mention of destruction ever again.
    2. ShivBaba did incarnate in Baba Lekhraj's body in 1936. But no Murlis have been preserved from 1936 to 62. The ones in circulation are from 63 to 68.
    They said nobody made an effort at keeping the original ones safe.. They accepted it was unfortunate.
    3. Nobody should demand money,property from someone. If some did donate without considering for themselves it was wrong. ( I could sense dishonesty here)
Well ... there are parts of knowledge which I really find very useful and some parts which are not. I have to handpick and collect in my trolley in this supermarket of spirituality.

The last few days of living outside the center seems different as if I have woken up from coma ... But it's nice, refreshing. I was in most of the dharnas even before I got in Gyan and I would continue so.

Coincidentally my Brother too was reading from this website ... !

All the best Mann. I left BKs many years ago and while I did not have any send-off, I had similar positive atmosphere while leaving and some BKs supporting my decision and even helping me settle in the outside world with regular advise and moral support (without the pressure of pulling me back). Some of them continue to be good friends. I did not have the clarity like you do so it took a while to adapt to outside world. But I was able to cope up with life outside BKs, continued some of my learning and positive part of the experience for many years from outside.

While leaving was difficult, today I have absolutely no regrets or complains of my time with the BKs or the fact that I left it. It was an experience that still helps me in certain aspects of life.

Hope you do very well in your journey ahead.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post26 Nov 2015

My suggestion is to empty the trolley completely for a while, do not trust the paradigms (thought processes and ideals) that led you into accepting the BKs and kept you there, not even those things you still believe were ”good”.

After the ”indulgence” you need to fast, a cathartic cleanse (pardon the tautology) of all assumptions. Do not presume you need ”an ideology" or belief system you can articulate. It's all jargon and words. Living is not the chatter inside your head of "this is good, this is not” - that’s secondary responses. Live Life, Laugh, Love. Enjoy.
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because.parmeshwar

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post26 Nov 2015

Clearofbk has "tailormade" the BKism to fit his own life and perhaps using its teaching to ease his life's challenges.
There is no "half way" or "selective good" in it. If you accept BKism partially, and not getting completely into the BK system then you are agreeing to take the birth as "Das Dasi" ; "Chandal" ; "Cremators" in the coming SatYuga as BKs claims.

BKism has to be totally accepted or totally rejected.
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clearofBK

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post26 Nov 2015

Pink Panther wrote:My suggestion is to empty the trolley completely for a while, do not trust the paradigms (thought processes and ideals) that led you into accepting the BKs and kept you there, not even those things you still believe were ”good”.

After the ”indulgence” you need to fast, a cathartic cleanse (pardon the tautology) of all assumptions. Do not presume you need ”an ideology" or belief system you can articulate. It's all jargon and words. Living is not the chatter inside your head of "this is good, this is not” - that’s secondary responses. Live Life, Laugh, Love. Enjoy.


This is precisely what I did - everyone of them - Live life, laugh, love, travel and enjoy! While following what I considered good for some years I also did a complete emptying of trolley afterwards to test the "dependency". Now without a dependency, I am able to apply some of the "good" bits when I need and they have always worked for me in practical life. So no point now of being free of the trolley anymore particularly when I know it helps. Still keeping friends with some of the BKs as well. Its all worked out fine with grace of God. I guess in the end everyone has a different perspective
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post26 Nov 2015

Honest non-critical questions, were the "good bits" really BKism ... or were they just universal "good bits" that had been around for 1,000s of years?

To which good bits do you refer?
because.parmeshwar wrote:BKism has to be totally accepted or totally rejected.

This is not an observation regards Clearofbk, but I've encountered individuals who drop in and drop out of BKism.

If they have been fully indoctrinated into the view you recall, Because - views I agree with as being accurate - I wonder how they really feel inside? Surely they must feel sick or unworthy, and be left with low self esteem. Or, in my day, we would have said that they never "got it" in the first place; that they never really understood or believed in what it was all about.

One of the ways they would make such souls feel like that - and I experienced this myself as I was exiting - is that they are sidelined in service and at best are given media jobs or those no one else wants (like low caste Hindus) and, for a very specific example I can recall, food they make is distrusted and refused (again like low caste Hindus).

They are, in short, low caste BKs.

On the other hand, I see in the West and amongst some Westernised Indian BKs, an attitude where they think they are superior to BKism and understand BKism better, in a more liberal fashion, e.g. saying things like doing daily Amrit Vela and Murli class really does not matter, that it is only a framework not the essence of spirituality.

Now, I agree with that last statement. Amrit Vela and Murli class really do not matter and are far from the essence of spirituality.

I just wonder if such BKs are deluding them at how the inner circle, the "owners" of BKism really think about them and their opinions?

I wonder if they are just being used as useful apologists on the periphery of BKism ... like the rich and famous and attractive passengers are given free tickets on a cruise ship to attract paying customers?

And if the inner circle panders to them because of the value of the business they bring in?

Now, I know the last bit to be true. You bring in money or business and they don't give up a damn if you sleep with your Sister, or one of their Sisters. You can even have a centre if you donate the property. They'll even give you free maid servants if you do.

Such cases have happened not just in India.
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clearofBK

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post27 Nov 2015

Honest non-critical questions, were the "good bits" really BKism ... or were they just universal "good bits" that had been around for 1,000s of years?

To which good bits do you refer?

The problem with this sort of question is that you are pre-determined to prove either the good bits (for me) are universal and not BKism Or they are not good bits :D.

Anyhow on a serious note, it's pretty simple - the idea of God and meditation as I understood during BK days. More than that, the techniques for mind control-> feelings and thoughts work very well in practical life (for me that is). Helps dealing with stress, developing positive attitude and remove clutter from mind. I am not getting into details here and, honestly, it doesn't matter to me if there are better alternatives as it works for me

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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post28 Nov 2015

ClearofBK wrote- the idea of God and meditation as I understood during BK days. More than that, the techniques for mind control-> feelings and thoughts work very well in practical life (for me that is).

Yes, I’d say that aspect is not uniquely BK .

ex-l’s point is about clarifying what is uniquely BK, what distinguishes BKs from any other group or belief system.
    God as light?
      Pre-Bks.
    Soul?
      Pre-BKs
    Jyoti Bindu?
      Pre-BKs
    Soul/Krisna/Christ consciousness?
      Pre-Bks
    Remembering God/marrying God/loving God ahead of all others?
      Pre-BK
Joseph Campbell, on completion of the four volumes of his "The Masks of God":-

""Looking back today over the twelve delightful years that I spent on this richly rewarding enterprise, I find that its main result for me has been its confirmation of a thought I have long and faithfully entertained: of the unity of the race of man, not only in its biology but also in its spiritual history, which has everywhere unfolded in the manner of a single symphony, with its themes announced, developed, amplified and turned about, distorted, reasserted, and today, in a grand fortissimo of all sections sounding together, irresistibly advancing to some kind of mighty climax, out of which the next great movement will emerge.

And I can see no reason why anyone should suppose that in the future the same motifs already heard will not be sounding still––in new relationships indeed, but ever the same motifs.

They are all given here, in these volumes, with many clues, besides, suggesting ways in which they might be put to use by reasonable men to reasonable ends––or by poets to poetic ends––or by madmen to nonsense and disaster. "

So, I’d say that what you enjoy and practice is part of a very human, historically common religious/spiritual tradition. Don’t confuse the product with the salesman. One’s gratitude is better directed to the creator and producer of it, the human psyche, a tricky, ever-changeable, wonderful thing indeed.

Depending on your attitude, you may agree that Truth sets you free. That must entail some self-examination of what you understand, why you understand it, how you understand it in that way.
“Rationality is shown not so much in what you believe as in how you believe it.

You are rational if you believe it on evidence and as firmly as the evidence warrants.

You are rational if your belief leads you to act only in ways which are no obstacle to the discovery of error.”

Bertrand Russell, What to Believe (1934)
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post28 Nov 2015

clearofBK wrote:I am not getting into details here and, honestly, it doesn't matter to me if there are better alternatives as it works for me

Don't worry, I was not going to. Actually, I know how difficult it is to break the habit or connection.

One thing that always left me wondering during my BK time was that no one really knows what another person is feeling and so there is no real way to tell what another BKs is doing or experiencing, or not, during mediation. It's even difficult to express in words, unless it is a profound or visionary type experience; and those are, I think, quite rare.

If we were to put the experience under a microscope, what is causing what? By that, I mean, there are various stages or levels so how much of what a BK experience is "just sitting", or just winding thoughts down; how much is "connection with Baba"; and then what is the Baba/the nature of the Baba?

I differ from you in that although I accept the practise effective, I don't trust the purpose and nature of the Baba.

But, please, do not let us take this off topic. I wonder how many people living at centres have already left inside but are physically trapped without any other options in life, "just sitting" not feeling anything, impressing their importance/existence on others to sustain themselves?
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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post28 Nov 2015

PP wrote:God as light?
Pre-Bks.
Soul?
Pre-BKs
Jyoti Bindu?
Pre-BKs
Soul/Krisna/Christ consciousness?
Pre-Bks
Remembering God/marrying God/loving God ahead of all others?
Pre-BK

Did I know these before BK? No

Did I know how to practice before BK? No

So the discussion here was not to argue what is uniquely BK or not. My point was to state I get benefits by some of these bits without any dependency. So I see no harm in continuing some of these to the extent possible for me

Anyhow, as ex-l pointed out, this is a bit off-topic. But ex-l is right, there is no way to measure or prove whether someone is experiencing anything or to what extent the feeling is. I, however, think that without that sound positive experience, people would not continue for long with BKs.

Have a good weekend folks.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post28 Nov 2015

The reason I was asking is because, at least on the outsides/in the West, we are witnessing a movement away from the Hindu roots and a stripping away of the Indian-ness.

They have a big problem with Destruction/Creation, it's just not happening according to 'the plan' and with Destruction, and Western fixation with Evolution, the 5,000 Years Cycle; I could see it being dropped. Possibly "Destruction/Creation" was just another Hindu meme, retrospectively exaggerated, and the "vision" allusion to Arjuna's vision on the battlefield, and the battle being the battle for the ground of his community, between Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Mukhi/anti=party.

In my time - approximately - they've moved from about 95% "The Gyan" and 5% sales pitch, to 95% sales pitch and 5% The Gyan. By sales pitch, I mean the waffle we used to spout at public talks as a way to get people interested. That waffle element has sort of evolved to adopt all sort of New Ageisms, other philosophies, even management leadership stuff. It was originally pretty meaningless waffle designed to make BKism look reasonable, interesting and attractive, and hold the audience long enough to "have the experience".

Now what you are saying, accepting it is your complete position, is that you are "having the experience" without any of the rest of it. I think that is what they are moving towards. In fact, I think they could probably chuck away 95% of the Gyan and strip it down to just that "soul + the Baba = experience" and reduce the rest to mythologised founder story.

I presume that is what they are doing in Muslim countries, or do they tell Muslims they are meditating on Allah?

And in time, they could even reduce Lekhraj Kirpalani down to just a picture of a benevolent founder of the institution. I mean, I don't that what it is today is anywhere near his vision, and I think it has gone beyond his vision and capacities.

Are all centre-in-charges adopting to this shift? Will all centres adopts? Or will large swathes of fundamentalist BKism be left behind stuck in the 1930s? Are some reacting away modernisation?
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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post30 Nov 2015

ex-l, you forget your own often made point that BKs are 99% India. But whether there or in the West, those who advanced in seniority, respect, positions or responsibility within the organisation were always essentially those who could "translate" the Gyan into acceptable language and presentation according to the audience, whether public program, course, beginner BKs, BK teachers and center-in-charges etc.

They all will readily revert to hardline jargon in a flash for effect amongst themselves. Those who cannot adopt the language of ”moderation” as per a situation stay as juniors and worker ants.

Clear of BK ... Hope you had a great weekend.

My point was not that what existed before BKs should not be utilised for one's own benefit if one finds it beneficial, just because one heard it first through BKs. I’d say in a large part that was the case for me too, starting as a BK as an adolescent like I did. What I was trying to say is that once we see through the web or the mélange of the edifice of BK Gyan, the act of separating out truth from (let’s call it) ”misunderstanding” has to be done completely, hence - tip out the whole trolley.

But if one decides to put some things back in the trolley, one should fully examine each and every one of those. And if that includes asking on what basis am I evaluating any of these things I am choosing to carry with me? Habit? Feelgood-ness? Ego balm? Wish fulfilment? Have I stopped my re-evaluation process at a ”comfortable” level afraid to unpick the thread all the way back to first principles?
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post30 Nov 2015

I need a quick review. Would the big differences between your/Campbell's view and the BKs' view be summarised as;
    The BKs believe The Knowledge/Gyan is powerful because it is unique and has been newly revealed by God himself.

    You or Joseph Campbell would say it is powerful because it resonates with stories and ideas we have evolved with and carried for 1,000s of years,

    The BKs would say and the god is a real being and the "experience" being a connection with that living being.

    You or Joseph Campbell would say the god being merely a conceptual idea, a projection of part of ourself, and the experience an entirely internal and personal one, i.e. an experience of part of the self.
I can see why that is a hard sell to BKs, because it takes away all the specialness in the equation.

I agree with you to the point where if I was Lekhraj Kirpalani or if I had inherited his religious business, I'd do a lot more "scientific" double blind testing, e.g. taking two groups doing meditation; one initiated into a relationship with the Baba, doing BK you and the other not initiated into a relationship with the Baba (or not led to believe the Baba was the supreme god of all) but still doing equivalent group sittings, then comparing the two's experience.

I am not challenging ClearofBK's experience but I am asking how much of it is the Baba and how much is what I am calling just sitting.

For example, take "just sitting" and compare it to "just sitting" but pre-set to believe in the specialness or importance of the practise, e.g. End of the World/salvation/clearing of karma.

Clearly believe in the specialness or importance of a practise is a big part of any religion.

--

I was watching Bill Maher's Religious documentary again. I prefer comedy to philosophy or religion these days. In truth, this time round I found it a little cruel or a little smarmy; perhaps relevant for America, which appears to me as in the grip of a huge cult (of stupidity), but often it just came across as picking on retards or too easy targets. However, a good point he makes is that whereas religion sells certainty, he was selling uncertainty. "I preach the Gospel of I Don't Know", he said.

In fact, I think he even went as far as to point to the place between certainty and uncertainty.

Relating it back to the experience of surrendered souls living at centres - "surrendered souls" sounds kind of like 'the living dead' or the souls trapped in Hades for me now - it seems the number one requirement is the ability to sell something with total confidence that is largely false and you have no idea about. The better you and more often can do that, the more you will be rewarded and rise. The problem being, if they have no positions for you to rise to within the organisation, and you are to valuable to them and they have no one else, you will get stuck in some centre you do not want to be in repeating the same stuff again and again and again for the rest of your life.

Pink, you were around from the mid-1970s to 90s? Did you ever living in or run a centre, or did you not "surrender" (your intellectual approach) sufficiently for them to accept you?

Of course, surrendering an intellect is a lot easier if you never had one in the first place. (That sounds arrogant but I am thinking of the core members of the cult who never even went to school and knew nothing of the world outside, other religion, history, science etc. The Dadi Jankis, Gulzars etc of the BK world).
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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post30 Nov 2015

Pink Panther wrote:But if one decides to put some things back in the trolley, one should fully examine each and every one of those. And if that includes asking on what basis am I evaluating any of these things I am choosing to carry with me? Habit? Feelgood-ness? Ego balm? Wish fulfilment? Have I stopped my re-evaluation process at a ”comfortable” level afraid to unpick the thread all the way back to first principles?

It's not that complicated. I have a case study to prove my point. Look at my posts some years ago on this forum as "clearernow". That was the phase when I had not emptied the trolley but was taking the good bits - it was more of an independent BK type lifestyle. However, why I chose the name clearer now -> it was showing to me an evolution in every moment of life. Means what was not clear to me yesterday is clearer now and that's the case of evolving. I was more defensive of the BKs then. The evolution has reached this point where I am "clearofbk" :D.

In later phases, I became more aloof from BKism - had no contact with a center for a couple of years. That was emptying of the trolley. With no dependence, I was even more clear on what works and what doesn't in BKism for me.

So the re-evaluation process never stops. But how do you measure it (like ex-l asks)? The level of peace, ability to manage stress in practical life, progress in career, having good family life, travelling around the world etc were some good measures for me to ensure the good bits are indeed good bits! And one more critical measure for me for my own re-evaluation has always been whether I am blaming any "outside" factor for my own state of mind. I must say this is one aspect I have succeeded greatly in past few years. Another learning I have had over past few years to avoid this complicated analysis like you suggest -> be easy and just be critical to the level required to let go of dependency

And, to ex-l's question on experience, I think I will be honest about it -> If experience can be related to inner joy or bliss, I have everything positive moving today but nothing compares to the level of inner joy I had felt during my deep BK days. I don't know to what extent others or surrendered ones experience. If I were to pick top 10 happiest days (not moments) of my life, 90% of them would be within my times with BKs! But I am able to let go and enjoy the current life and don't regret anything.
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