Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post01 Dec 2015

By deep BK days, do you mean the Honeymoon Period?
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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post01 Dec 2015

ex-l wrote:I need a quick review. Would the big differences between your/Campbell's view and the BKs' view be summarised as....
Pretty accurate. When one looks at the actual experiences described - whether BK, sikh, Buddhist, Muslim, indigenous native animist etc - you see great similarity if you leave aside the narrative of what they believe gave the experience. If you look at the narratives of belief, a few may have some similarity with a few others but many will be completely different to others. That is, same phenomena, different explanations. Campbell put it forward that just as humans are genetically coded to have horizontal eyes, vertical noses and only be able to perceive certain frequencies of the universe naturally, so too we are as humans psychologically coded to have a certain range and type of experiences. the stories we weave to tell ourselves about these experiences will change within a pattern, sometimes they will be ”poetic”, sometimes "nonsense and disastrous” .

Pink, you were around from the mid-1970s to 90s? Did you ever living in or run a centre, or did you not "surrender" (your intellectual approach) sufficiently for them to accept you?
Never a full time centre resident, being where i was, in London at first, that was of course impossible even though I became one of the main teachers for newbies, some of whom are still BKs of the more intelligent (more able to kid themselves) variety . Then in Australia, the different BK culture didn’t appeal to me and left me increasingly dissatisfied. . I never had the desire to be in any centre here given the way they were. I never asked what would be entailed to be a centrewassi. However I have over those years been as temporary resident of a number of centres.

ClearofBK: So the re-evaluation process never stops. But how do you measure it

By the level of independence of thinking, emotional autonomy, self-direction, the regularity of circumspection and analysis of one’s own beliefs, the checking to see that how one operates is never going to preclude the ability to admit error and learn immediately, regardless of ideology or preconception.

As for ”happiest moments” - they are of their time. if you thought about it and could remember it, maybe it was when you were suckling on your mother’s breast or a particular day’s playing in pre-school. Then that first romance’s heady first lovemaking? What do we remember or let ourselves remember? TBH I really enjoy a good bowel evacuation!! In fact...
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clearofBK

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post01 Dec 2015

By deep BK days, do you mean the Honeymoon Period?

Some of it, not all of them. The experience continued till the end of my time with them..even way after the Honeymoon Period.
By the level of independence of thinking, emotional autonomy, self-direction, the regularity of circumspection and analysis of one’s own beliefs, the checking to see that how one operates is never going to preclude the ability to admit one is wrong and learn immediately.

As for ”happiest moments” - they are of their time. if you thought about it and could remember it, maybe it was when you were suckling on your mother’s breast or a particular day’s playing in pre-school. Then that first romance’s heady first lovemaking? What do we remember or let ourselves remember? TBH I really enjoy a good bowel evacuation!! In fact...

The first part - yes, all of those evaluation criteria have been applied dear and I have passed (with honors ;-)). I have come far enough from the time of evaluating myself if I did something wrong. I have full acceptance of the current moment as well as past and I don't beat myself to think why I did join BKs or for that matter anything that I chose in past.

As for happiest moments, sorry PP you are being a bit cheeky here. I tried hard but couldn't remember the time of breast feeding ... I was too young then you see. :D.

You have actually failed your own evaluation criteria "preclude the ability to admit one is wrong". You are not able to admit one can have any "happier" time with BKs in comparison with regular fun in life. You have now probably come to the other extreme wherein you would use your analytical mind to convince others that there is no difference in a spiritual experience versus a worldly experience.

Forget about bowels, I have had even better things :-). Like some luxury holidays and great time with family. But believe me it still doesn't come closer to some of the joyous days of my BK days. May be that is what super sensuous joy meant. You need to start believing others can think as clearly as you do and can be their own judge for their exeriences.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post01 Dec 2015

You have actually failed your own evaluation criteria "preclude the ability to admit one is wrong ". You are not able to admit one can have any "happier" time with BKs in comparison with regular fun in life.

Firstly, I did say "- they are of their time”. This is also where we need to define terminology. Happiness is related to ”happen, happenstance" with ”hapless” (unfortunate) as one antonym. That is , happiness is enjoying what is ‘happening’. Any discussion about happiness always ends up contrasting it to contentment, satisfaction, equanimity etc

The idea of comparison of one happy moment over another is not valid because the preconditions and circumstances, what is happening in one moment, will have changed by the time of the next ”happiness". It's like eating a really good meal but you don't let yourself enjoy it as much as you could because you keep telling yourself the best meals you ever had were at your late grandmother’s house. It is cursing the meal in front of you with misplaced sentimentality or nostalgia.

I am not the one comparing BK happiness with non-BK happiness. If high school was the happiest time of someone's life, well, regardless, they ain’t going back to high school. They graduated. That’s done.The happiness the juvenile or the adolescent is different to the happiness of the parent or of the aged. And so many other comparisons could be made. I was happy at times in BKs and I am happy that I changed and am liberated from the need for BK or for any cult-think.
None so unhappy as those who do not heed their own need for change.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post01 Dec 2015

Oh, yes. My first kiss definitely beat any experience I had in BK-ism.

Just being in a group has a good vibe. Unfortunately, most group or social experiences are diluted, distracted or confused by other influence, e.g. alcohol, sports or politics etc. People think it is the alcohol, sports, politics or religion etc but largely it's just being in a group - which is something I think it important for exiting-BKs to connect back to otherwise they can be very excluded from society and feel bad.

That's not to exclude any magical, mystic, psychic experience' it's just to another component we have to filter out to assess what is really going on.

I do think religions organise that experience (creating group, moulding group activity) and then make their god take credit for supplying it but I am still open to the idea of their being gods and them also adding something to both personal and group experience. I can accept the theory that there are collective experiences (group spirit) and leave the door open for other interventions.

I just would not jump to the conclusion that an other intervention naturally means it is a supreme being. I would say that is just more an expression of the individual and individuals who see it in that way, e.g. I am so special therefore it must be The God rather than just a god or even "god-let" (demigod, local tribal spirit).
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clearofBK

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post01 Dec 2015

The idea of comparison of one happy moment over another is not valid because the preconditions and circumstances, what is happening in one moment, will have changed by the time of the next ”happiness". It's like eating a really good meal but you don't let yourself enjoy it as much as you could because you keep telling yourself the best meals you ever had were at your late grandmother’s house. It is cursing the meal in front of you with misplaced sentimentality or nostalgia.

This is not different from my idea of happiness. It's just in simple terms living in the moment and that is important. However, even if you were to live in a particular moment fully, the experiences can be different across such experiences. What you are saying is that one shouldn't get trapped in the past even if it was good which is fine, however, equally bad is the angst and loathing people carry from negative experiences from past for many years. If one is not trapped, one should be completely free of blaming others including BKs for their experiences taking full responsibility of their choices. If it was a negative experience it was due to BKs. If it was positive experience, it had nothing to do with BKs - don't get trapped by it, move on ..!! That is the double standard one must not adopt.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post02 Dec 2015

clearofBK wrote:If one is not trapped, one should be completely free of blaming others including BKs for their experiences taking full responsibility of their choices.

I appreciate you were addressing Pink, but I don't understand that leap of logic.

It's a typical BKism to try condition (exiting) BKs and ex-es to not blame the BKWSU for its influence using the old, "no one forced you to come ... it's your decision" lines etc.

I don't think that's fair because while, yes, no one did force you, they did use extremely heavy weight coercions; concepts of god, karma, fate, Shrimat, End of the World etc. That's exactly the con man's defence, "But I did not force him to hand over his money". No, you tricked, lied and manipulated him into handling over his money.

Secondly, there is the guilt or responsibility by omission. What they did hid or did not tell us.

For example, in London if they had said to us, "The End of the World is coming in two to three years", which they did, "but we've invested in a freehold property just in case is does not (because all the other times Lekhraj Kirpalani/God predicted it would, it did not either), so should you". Then many individuals would have made more rational decisions and be in better circumstances today.

Of course, we were fools to drop our guards and believe in them just because they used the God word etc. It is really empowering to take total responsibility for one's state as a victim to skilful con women, and to let them escape scot free to con others?

There is something I would like you to understand.

To carry on supporting individuals going through the exiting processes, or friends and family of BK experiencing the breakdown of their relationships, one has to decide to remain at that stage (or be able to drop back into it). A bit like being a military nurse or a doctor.

If you imagine the evolution of life like a cliff face we are all climbing, choosing to support individuals at this stage of exiting means staying on the ledge just above BKism to give them a hand up, listen to their problems, supporting them and encourage them on. It's great if and when they do move on. But without anyone being here, there would be a missing rung in The Ladder.

I would say the reasonable response to a BK leader telling you, "no one forced you/your child/your wife to come ... it's your/their decision" (which is what BK leaders say) would be taking their head and sticking it down a toilet, or something similar, until they beg forgiveness for their arrogance, insensitivity and unwillingness to take responsibility for what they have done.

In other words, "don't get mad, get even (in some way that does not break the law)". Unfortunately literally cleaning a toilet with a Senior Sister's head probably would do, so I mean that at a metaphorical level 'showing them the error of their ways'.

I am open to discussing better re-empowering strategies but defending by the BKWSU but telling victims it was "all their fault", is not good or right.
Pink Panther wrote:It's like eating a really good meal but you don't let yourself enjoy it as much as you could because you keep telling yourself the best meals you ever had were at your late grandmother’s house.

But my grandmother definitely made better chips than I can! She was a better cook all round.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post02 Dec 2015

The short version of the post above is, "be cautious of of BK leaders programming you, to deflect valid criticisms from them, in order that they can carry on their con trick, tricking others".

That to me is the defining mark of a BK apologist. Someone enabling the BK leaders to carry on their long con.

By accepting such conscious programming, you are actually becoming or remaining part of the con as a "roper" or a "shill".
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Pink Panther

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post02 Dec 2015

ex-l wrote:I do think religions organise that experience (creating group, moulding group activity) and then make their god take credit for supplying it but I am still open to the idea of their being gods and them also adding something to both personal and group experience.

The question arises from your statement quoted above - if any autonomously existing gods are adding something to the experience, which gods? The one the person/group believes in? Are they creating it, in the sense of an ‘egregore’ or is there an autonomously existing god or daemon other than the one they believe in, manipulating them?

Have a read of Neil Gaiman’s novel 'American Gods’, you’ll really enjoy it. One premise is that the old gods travelled to America with the migrants who believed in them, but they are weakening and fading and fighting to survive as fewer and fewer people believe in them or even know about them. Then there is a kind of battle with the ”new gods” who want to finish the old gods off once and for all. All mixed into a crime-whodunnit narrative. Great fun while deeply thought provoking.

Before monotheism, there were many gods, demi-gods and daemons who competed for effect and for the devotions of the believers. If they received no honouring, no sacrifices or offerings, they raged to make the peopel do it, otherwise - they’d cease to have relevance or to even exist!

Abrahamic monotheism states ”thou shalt have no other Gods before me” and ”I am a jealous God” which implies there are other gods but they should not be worshipped, YHWH is the tribal god and the one true god of the Israelites. It was in the later Old Testament that saw the emergence of the concept of Satan/Lucifer (the snake in Eden is never named), a variation on Zoroastrianism’s binary cosmology, and became associated with any other supernatural force that was not of the One True God, i.e all other gods are Satan or Satan’s servants. Christianity loved this aspect, picked up on Satan and ran with it. The islamic ”there is no God but THE God” is similar and parallels the Judaeo-Christian idea of one god, the good one, and all other influences are demonic.

The BK Gyan, for all its hubris that it discounts the existence of all other gods and demons, they are all ”memorials”, in its own way still uses the same binary language to make itself ”the good side” and the others "the dark side” (or more benignly, the ”less good”) .

However, IMO, no matter what anyone says about the benefits of BK life, this binary way of thinking is ego driven, and a narrow, presumptuous view of the world, therefore poisonous to ”clear seeing” etc.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post02 Dec 2015

I know the book but have not read it. I agree it's much inline with my working theory.

If there is one god, there are 10,000 gods (to paraphrase Taoism - meaning an uncountable number), as in Japan with their Kami. In fact, many dimensions of them.

Elohim, translated from the Bible as "God", is plural. In Islam, you have the Djinn (genies). Likely, if any of it is real, the BK god spirit is just a djinn.

Any tribal god who claims to be "the god" has got to be on a lower psychic level (evil), and ego trapped or driven too. Sure, they might give you peace or a buzz but that still does not make them the Alpha and Omega.
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because.parmeshwar

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post03 Dec 2015

clearofBK- did you find out how many lives the BKs have destroyed?
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clearofBK

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post03 Dec 2015

BP, I am not here to defend BKWSU.
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ex-l

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post03 Dec 2015

For the sake of information, in the case of a BK centre-in-charge and trustee of the BKWSO charity marrying a BK Brother I mentioned, here, both were living at her property that acted as a BK center.

How would you define your position now, 'clear of'?

Not here to defend the BKWSU but supportive of "the experience"? Could "the experience" exist without the BKWSU?

Funnily enough, from the Murlis, I would say that Lekhraj Kirpalani's vision was at least originally a BKWSU without the BKWSU, by which I mean it was a family to family, house movement. Originally he was set against the buying of properties and, therefore, the establishment of a "church". "The family path" it was called.

I don't know if he had a conscious long term game plan, or when it was changed to include developing a 'business-church' structure on top of the family path and by whom but, obviously, such infrastructure adds additional demands and changes relationships between individuals, e.g. incomes have to be found, bureaucracies develop, organisational overheads are incurred to manage it all, all of which rest on the centres-in-charge.

Initially centres were financially autonomous but I know that from time to time the headquarters squeezes them for money, pics pressurised and rewarded on what they bring it, big moneys taken from local centres and not distributed, and there have been disputes about it. It's not something clearly documented, recorded or spoken about - for expedient reasons.

Most defences of the BKWSU are highly subjective. Indeed, the BK leadership encourages them to be so, i.e. "don't think of the problems, don't consider the ethics, don't weigh up the costs, don't think of the damage ... just think of yourself, your feelings, and how you feel".

I think that's deeply problematic and even if something pleases me, I should consider the bigger picture and decide on whether I should support or indulge in it. You cannot separate the product from the means of production and if the means of production is abusive or causes damage to those subjected to it and society as whole, can it be good?

Feudalism, slavery, human trafficking were "good" ... for those enjoying the luxuries they provided. But not as a whole. I would say BKism might be a milder form but structurally exists within the same category.

The business which spreads the product is based on elements of all three and pics have to give up their conscience, stop thinking or questioning it, to promote that way of acting.

Even as a BK, even if I still was a BK consumer, I would still be act as democratising force within BKism against such abuses. I have to be critical of users of BK luxuries (facilities), especially "IP", "VIP" and privileged Westerners who do not look, question and take a stand in such matters.

It's like supporting child abuse or sweatshops in Asia.
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clearofBK

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post04 Dec 2015

How would you define your position now, 'clear of'?

Not here to defend the BKWSU but supportive of "the experience". Could "the experience" exist without the BKWSU?

Answer lies within your question - "clear of". That is the position I am in! Clear of the BK past and fully enjoying the present life without regrets or attachment of the past.

When I say anything about my experience, it's just "my" experience and this doesn't translate into advocating or defending it for BKWSU. And an experience is personal. No other person can feel what you feel.
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yogi108

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Re: Experiences of those surrendered, living at the center?

Post21 Jan 2016

I like the clear-of-bk arguments simply not because he is a BK supporter - I think he has cracked it quite sensibly - live in the present without the BK baggage- no regrets to the tremendous learning platform the BK's have given - in fact, I sense gratitude in the words he has used - Moved on with life.
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