The Supreme Judge - for you?

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john morgan

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The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post20 May 2008

It is well known is BK circles that at the time of Destruction certain souls will be allocated by Bap Dada the role of Supreme Judge.

Now who are those souls likely to be? They could be the Dadi's and most Brahmins would think that but I'd like to suggest another way of looking at it. What would be happening at that time? Brahmins especially would be censured. They would realise the error(s) of their ways and know at that point that for all time the part of error was theirs and despite their best efforts to hide or forget their own misdoings they could not. For a true humbling effect Bap Dada would use rejects. What do I mean by rejects? Those who have left the study because of disservice, those who have been caused undue pain because of the arrogance of instruments.

Perhaps you are a BK and perhaps you are quite senior but now is the time to look in your heart of hearts and ask the forgiveness of all and any that you may of hurt and to make your best efforts to repair the damage you have done. I beg of you please do not disregard what is at this time a little jolt to your conscience. Nothing, absolutely nothing will be missed at the end. Even now you will find that these rejects are far kinder than you were to them, so please take this chance, it is a good one.
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yogi108

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post20 May 2008

John,

Interesting Post ... I would like to compare your post to a line in the Murli where Baba talks about the souls who have left Gyan ... and would come back since there is no other place like Baba's house. I used to have this question ... souls who have left do not have access to knowledge and how are they going to listen to this point of Murli ...

I have the same question for you. Do you really think the instruments and Seniors who have caused so much grief and been instrumental in so many students leaving would read this and correct themselves? Brother, they have to take care of the VIP souls who are responsible for mortgage payment. There is another prospect that is likely to write their will in Baba's name ... and there is the other one who has been making noises about the irregularities in the Yagya that need to be thrown out ... Do they have time to come to this forum and read this post ...?

I guess you need to go to a public gathering where the Seniors are there and ask this question.

Yogi
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john morgan

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post20 May 2008

Have a little faith Brother, the post is in the right place at the right time.
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ex-l

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post20 May 2008

I thought this forum WAS Dharam Raj for the BKWSU leadership ... at least in the West. After all, we have the ears and eyes of the VIPs too.
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john morgan

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post21 May 2008

Hello Yogi108,

I've been thinking a little more about your post. The BK like to tell people rather than listen to what they have to say, though they do ask for and consider questions. It seems unlikely that this thread will reach the ears of those it was designed for though I understand that there is a BK team that monitors posts here and those that have courage could easily pass the thread on to those to whom it applies. As for considering it, well you can take a horse to water etc. If there is no meaningful response then adding to this forums impact by publishing a book will become a real option. Real people and their experiences. Nothing wrong in speaking the truth is there?

What is standing out for me here is the BK need of money. More money for bigger developments. It's lucky for the committed donors that they are building in India where building costs are more economical than in most other countries.

This love of money has been a BK trait for a very long time. It was very deeply impressed on me very early in my study that if you are giving money it must be with the awareness that you are giving it to Baba or he will not accept it. For someone who is considering whether God exists or not, its a very tough thing to hear. :shock: I wonder if DJ in her fund raising always sticks to that principle or if the possibility of money takes precedence over any BK limitations in the donors understanding.

Business men were actively courted by DJ when she first came to London from India. I suspect that the chance of a donor mitigating his sins by giving to the BK is sufficient, after all if the donor truly realised that God was teaching and became surrendered his focus on earning money would change. Once you receive a donation the likelihood of a further donation from that same place is great, so best to impress the golden goose but not inspire him too much.

Odd though that the VIPs who make money are inferior to those who solicit donations, still from a BK perspective the world has always stood on its head and the things of the world are like the droppings of a crow, the BK want only what is from God ... except, of course, money. Where there is money there is something important happening and the fund raiser has good status.

Then there arises the question "If the BK are not a religion as they have previously stated, then who is teaching and who is it that the student who has the faith that he is giving to God actually giving to?"

Churches and other organisations who teach spiritual knowledge are also very fond of money. They don't ask questions, they just take whatever appears in the collection plate. So why shouldn't the BK? The reason is that students are told that they are giving to God not to the Sisters or organisation and this "fact" is deeply impressed upon them.

Fund raising even takes place in Madhuban nowadays, students are told it is far better to give their spare money to Baba rather than buy Indian goods to take home. Baba's part is not to give money it is to take it, its far better to give money than to waste it and of course if the students do not give their spare cash to Baba they would be wasting it.

Hmm ... I wonder how many have left the study because of asking questions about fundraising. Am I saying, "ask a good honest question about a topic and get treated very badly?" Yes, I am. if you don't believe me try it and see.

Once the development is complete, the donor will have a very good feeling to be part of creating such a magnificent project. There is very good karma in service. Anyone who stands in the BK way will, of course, be destroyed for theirs is the work of God and all worldy matters take second place ... except money of course!

I am serious about cheque and change, Baba really has come to take everyone home, its very expensive though.
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yogi108

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post22 May 2008

john morgan wrote:. Once you receive a donation the likelihood of a further donation from that same place is great, so best to impress the golden goose but not inspire him too much. I am serious about cheque and change, Baba really has come to take everyone home, its very expensive though.

Let me narrate one incident ... I had a 'Best Buy' card once ... and used it very sparingly. A center was being built and hence thought would be nice to donate something like a freezer, Refrigerator, Microwave, etc amounting to a decent amount of dollars ... The Sisters came back and asked whether it would be okay to get a 'public address system' with the card ... I said, "Yes... but thats not in my budget". They insisted that I try ... Brother, they try hard ... is not that their job?

I am quite lucky to not to get burnt by the happenings of the Yagya ... I am truly impressed with The Knowledge and BapDada ... whoever that is!!!

Even finding peace within the center is very expensive ... after 9 years found a trick to achieve that ... probably that is the YUKTI which will work within the BK world ...

You can find the best and the worst in Yagya ... continue with the journey of becoming the best ... leave the others so far behind.

Yogi
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paulkershaw

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post22 May 2008

yogi108 wrote: Even finding peace within the center is very expensive ... after 9 years found a trick to achieve that ... probably that is the YUKTI which will work within the BK world ...Yogi

IMHO, the only way one can find true peace within a centre is to wear earplugs and dark glasses and be on Valium most days.

Anyway does true peace exist?
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yogi108

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post22 May 2008

Lol, what a combo; ear plugs, dark glasses and Valium ... Well, its easier said than done. Yes, true peace does exist but its expensive though ...

I remember one Brother in the forum mentioned that a BK promised all his wealth to the Yagya and then left body without doing anything about it ... good yukti.

I have now realized boxing from outside the ring is another good way ... use them like they use you ... not that ruthlessly but to get what you want from them rather than give in to what they want from you ...

Yogi
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john morgan

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post22 May 2008

Possibly the main difficulty a person who reads my posts would have is understanding where I am coming from. The experience of being alive is a rich panoply of the remarkable and perhaps not so remarkable.

I have been working through the negative effect of my BK experience ever since I left the study and this forum has for me accelerated the process. On the one hand I speak in favour of the BKs very strongly and, on the other, I speak against in the most damning way. The definitive moment in my leaving the BKs was to do with a situation where DJ was with a business man. I was told that he might give Baba money, I was asked to transport him and said no because I was concerned that he could not really know who he was giving money to. It surprised me greatly when the Sister involved did not discuss the matter but instead severed all contact with me. The effect of that situation has been with me for a very long time, it is one thing to analyse a situation intellectually it is quite another to resolve it fully in the whole of ones being. That this situation occurred in the first place is to my mind a damning indictment of the BK set up as a whole. Whilst I appreciate Bap Dada and his knowledge very much. That a divine being's action should affect me so deeply and negatively and for so long and that this was or is the work of God needs an element added to my understanding that is missing at present. The more recent banning that I experienced could also be interpreted as further proof that the Yagya as a whole is nothing to do with God because if he is not here for me who else could he be possibly be here for.

That qualities such as honesty straightforwardness and co-operation are not as evident in this world as they could be is a fact, though overall most of the people I come in contact with are pretty decent. I see nothing wrong in teaching moral values and the quality of purity is the most beautiful that I have ever seen. Various people have studied the power of thought throughout time and have said that it is fine to receive money for the teaching of concentration but to solicit it for teaching meditation is against spiritual law. Voluntary donations towards what a giver perceives as a good cause are just fine. That the BK way of actively asking for money and doing damage to those who they think stand in the way of fund collecting is wrong I cannot say, what I do know is that it can hurt like hell.

It seems to me that soliciting donations is nothing better than begging with royal sanskaras. If a person who is receiving benefit decides to voluntarily to give 10% of their income that is their choice and a responsible one. That those in receipt of 10% should ask for more requires very close examination. Why this BK love for more and more money? Bap Dada doesn't need it and if he is who he says he is surely he has to do something about his starving children in India before he tackles the rest of the world.

If it turns out BK are just the same but more fanatical than other yogis on this planet and that they are just acting in the name of God as others do and that they consider that the pain they dish out is justified there will certainly be a day of reckoning. I know how to have faith in Bap Dada and it does change my consciousness but I am never going to play the Almighty Master Authority with anyone. The presence of certain talents does not automatically confer on anyone the right to speak and act as if they are agents of God, there are many charlatans with certain talents. That these 100% know alls with certain yogic strengths are so interested in money is to me very fishy.
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paulkershaw

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post23 May 2008

I think that like everything else that you're good doing often turns into a business and when a business is formed it changes the original traits a whole lot. It does feel as if the BKWSO has become a business and in doing so are losing their spirituality, which is 20th Century in its nature in any event. They don't want to appear "New Age' - yet want their business to run well but in order to do so they're going to have to buck up a bit and re-market themselves in order to bring in what they need to do to keep going - or else they will go down like many other 20th Century structures have done already.
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arjun

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post24 May 2008

john morgan wrote:I see nothing wrong in teaching moral values and the quality of purity is the most beautiful that I have ever seen. Various people have studied the power of thought throughout time and have said that it is fine to receive money for the teaching of concentration but to solicit it for teaching meditation is against spiritual law. Voluntary donations towards what a giver perceives as a good cause are just fine. That the BK way of actively asking for money and doing damage to those who they think stand in the way of fund collecting is wrong I cannot say, what I do know is that it can hurt like hell.

It seems to me that soliciting donations is nothing better than begging with royal sanskaras.

I agree and that is what Baba says in all the Murlis. But BapDada comes only for a few hours and only for a few days in a year and while he is on this Earth, he never checks the accounts. So, we can continue our business. :D
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arjun

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post27 May 2008

john morgan wrote:It is well known is BK circles that at the time of Destruction certain souls will be allocated by Bap Dada the role of Supreme Judge.

Now who are those souls likely to be? They could be the Dadi's and most Brahmins would think that but I'd like to suggest another way of looking at it. What would be happening at that time? Brahmins especially would be censured. They would realise the error(s) of their ways and know at that point that for all time the part of error was theirs and despite their best efforts to hide or forget their own misdoings they could not.

Here are a few Murli/Avyakt Vani quotes on the subject of Dharmaraj/Supreme Justice:

After some time these matters i.e. giving lift will be stopped. That’s why you can take whatever you want now. Then the Father’s form will be transformed into a form of Supreme Justice. Before a Justice, one may be his loved one or relative, but law is law. Now it’s time for love. Then it will be a time for law. Then you will not be able to get this lift. (Avyakt Vani dated30-5-73, 25-9-78 pg-2 published by BKs in Hindi; translated by a PBK)
Baba is also a big Marshal. Along with Baba there’s Dharmaraj too. If you don’t follow the Shrimat (directions) of Baba then (remember) His right hand is Dharmaraj. (Revised Sakar Murli dated 24-4-72,pg-2, published by BKs in Hindi; translated by a PBK)
If the burden of sins remains (till the end) then a tribunal will sit for you. Divine visions are caused. You acted like this in this birth…....Here also Dharmaraj will cause divine visions and tell you that Father used to teach you through the body of Brahma. You were taught so much but even then you committed so many sins. (Father) will cause visions of the sins of not only this birth but also of the previous births. (Revised Sakar Murli 4-7-78 pg-2, published by BKs in Hindi; translated by a PBK)
Now remember that there is subtle punishment along with corporal punishment. Don’t think that we will suffer the subtle punishments within the mind and exhaust them. No. Subtle punishments are received in subtle form. And these will increase day by day. If you act against the code of conduct (Maryadas), violate the code of conduct, both worldly and Godly codes of conduct, and then such souls will have to experience corporal punishments also. (Avyakt Vani dated 3-5-72,pg-3, published by BKs in Hindi; translated by a PBK)

Just like the Murli quotes on Shudrakumaris quoted in another thread, there are some tough versions spoken by ShivBaba/BapDada on the subject of punishments through Dharmaraj for the violations of Shrimat. But I would quote only if anyone desires.

One of the above quotes speaks about a Tribunal, but I don't think it has been mentioned anywhere else in the Avyakt Vanis that the senior BKs would sit as the Tribunal. I suppose the Tribunal refers to the three souls playing the role of Trimurti/the three deities, i.e. Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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john morgan

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post27 May 2008

Yes Arjun,

If you would be kind enough to post the tougher versions I for one will read them avidly.

Thanks,
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arjun

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post28 May 2008

john morgan wrote:If you would be kind enough to post the tougher versions I for one will read them avidly.

Many storms (of negative thoughts) will come in the mind but you should not translate them into actions with your organs. If you act through the organs then those organs will be cut. That organ shall be cut. If you get angry at anyone after donating (your body to Baba) then the tongue shall be cut. Dharmaraj (literally meaning king of religion, but refers to the deity of death or punishment according to Hindu mythology) Baba will get the organs cut one by one. (Revised Sakar Murli dated 14-4-73, pg-2, published by BKs in Hindi and translated by a PBK)
I am Dharmaraj too. When you used to do anything indirectly (before coming to this path of knowledge) you used to get temporary punishments. Now after coming directly (in contact with God) if you undo the hard work of Baba, then you will have to face a lot of punishment. Dharmaraj Baba says I will remove your skin. (Revised Sakar Murli dated 17-4-73, pg-3, published by BKs in Hindi and translated by a PBK)
Dharmaraj is also a creator. Baba only causes divine visions of the form of Dharmaraj also, isn’t it? And then, he proves that, “Look, you had promised that we will not get angry, we will not cause sorrows to anyone.” But even then, you caused sorrows to him, irritated him. Now you suffer the punishment. I cannot give punishment without causing visions. Proof is required, isn’t it? They also feel that I left Father and committed sins. (Revised Sakar Murli dated 28-5-71 pg-2, published by BKs in Hindi and translated by a PBK)
Remember that if you don’t accept now, then I shall break your bones through Dharmaraj. Just don’t ask. There are many who cannot live without sex. They are not afraid. Just don’t ask how many hunters they will have to bear and their post will also be lost. They stoop to such a low level in the bad company of others that they become worthy of Chandaal’s post (a community within the lowest caste in the Hindu society, which attends to funeral work). (Revised Sakar Murli dated 13-10-71 pg-3, published by BKs in Hindi and translated by a PBK)
If you forget Father then you will get Father only in the form of Dharmaraj. You will never be able to get the Father’s love. That is why, don’t hide, don’t take it lightly, and don’t blame others. In this foundation of purity, Baapdada will give 100 times or million times (padam guna) punishment for every mistake through Dharmaraj. There cannot be any concession in this matter. He cannot become merciful in this matter, because once someone has snapped the relationship with Father, they get influenced by others. Shifting from the influence of the Supreme Soul to the influence of souls, means that one has not known or recognized Father. Before such souls Father appears like a Father and Dharmaraj. (Avyakt Vani dated 12-4-84 pg-239, published by BKs in Hindi and translated by a PBK)
Now you are not getting any direct punishment for the creation of any wasteful and impure thought. But after some lime, leave apart the matter of actions. You will experience the direct punishment of even the impure or wasteful thought. (Avyakt Vani dated 3-5-72 pg-263, published by BKs in Hindi and translated by a PBK)

Since this is a newcomers section, I suggest this thread could be shifted to the BK/PBK section.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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bansy

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Re: The Supreme Judge - for you?

Post28 May 2008

Do such Dharamraj "warnings" only apply to those who are existing Brahmins, do they apply to ex BKs, or do they apply to all the other 6 billion souls in the world who know nothing about Raja Yoga ?
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