Questions for BKs

for Brahma Kumaris, or those becoming BKs, to discuss matters in an open, non-judgemental manner.
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new knowledge

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Questions for BKs

Post27 Jul 2008

Let me first congratulate mbbhat for his rational replies to the queries of PBKs & ex-BKs on the basis of Murli points. Brother mbbhat, I've created this thread to express point of view of dashing BKs like you. Here, any forum member, especially PBK or ex-BK, is free to ask questions to BKs.

Brother mbbhat, first question to you. What's your interpretation of not occuring of destruction in 1976, though it was stated so in the Murli & strongly believed by Lekhraj Kirpalani & BKs?
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warrior

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post27 Jul 2008

And second (but supposed to be the first) question to our alokik Brother:

    When will the BKWSU make the Murlis available to all the souls that want to read and study them?
    And why are they keeping the Murlis under seven locks?
Thanks,
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mbbhat

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post27 Jul 2008

new knowledge wrote:Brother mbbhat, first question to you. What's your interpretation of not occuring of destruction in 1976, though it was stated so in the Murli & strongly believed by Lekhraj Kirpalani & BKs?

Dear Soul,

    1) May be to speed up the purusharthah of the children.
    2) It is clearly said in Sakar Murli, "teacher koyi aasheervaad kar na sake, teacher kar bhee kyaa saktaa hai, jyaadaa se jyaadaa thoda extra time de saktaa hai"- = "What a tecaher can do? Can he give aasheervaad? He can only give extra time". That means he can postpone the examination. So, there is nothing wrong even if Shiva speaks like that. Parents even lie children for their benifit.
    3) Baba has also said in Murli, "If you are at your friends' place and they offer food to you, tell them, Doctor has not permitted me to eat this. I will take milk, fruit, etc. This is yukti".

    4) Even in Avyakt Murli, Baba has said, "Do you fear to go to jail?" [This was asked since Brahma Baba had given a letter in writing to Government].
Dear warrior soul,

There is no wonder in keeping Murlis secret. Murli says, till one gets faith in Baba, do not proceed to next step. It is waste. What is the use of bread if one cannot drink water?

But BKs who have the original faith get Murlis.

    *If one wants to do research constructively, then it is good. I think, Baba will give him maximum.
    *I repeat again that I cannot give Murli date always and the meaning may be approximate since I have not created a database.
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new knowledge

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post27 Jul 2008

Could the cutting, editing & formating Murlis be justified? Has Baba given authority to some BKs to do so? Quote just a single Murli point which supports that permission of cutting, editing & formating of Murlis should be granted to some 'selected' BKs??? If it is so, then what are those qualifications for a BK to be eligible to be appointed as an authority to cut, edit & format Murlis? What is that procedure of 'such' appointment?
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mbbhat

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post27 Jul 2008

Dear new knowledge soul,

Baba has not given any permission to cut or edit Murlis. But has Baba given persmission to you to defame BKs by accusing them? Listen.

1) Baba has said clearly that some children have cut the Murlis. Baba himself has not accused them. But he has said it. So, it is left to children to correct themselves.
2) Everybody in drama will do one or other mistakes. After getting knowledge of seven days course, it is enough if you just remember Baba, Shantidham and sukhdham. There is no need of Murli at all. Then why Murli is needed?

3) Baba says, you should remember me 8 hours per day. But is it possible instantly? Impossible. Till the stock of positive thoughts are not stored, one cannot get concentration. So, Murli is needed just to make you think positive. That is why Baba says, read a Murli 6, 8 times. What will happen then? You will just remember Baba.

(A wonderful thing is here: usually, BKs get more power in listening to Murlis than doing Yoga. This means that their Yoga is not perfect. So by listening Murlis for a long time, one gets real interest and easiness in Yoga. Murli is stock of positive thoughts).

4) What is the use of Murli for those who develop negative thinking!?

*Murli is also useful for service and gives hints for practical life.
*Nobody can take law into his hands. That is the law!

*There are some gramatic mistakes in old Murlis, since they all are written by human beings. So, neatly, some editing should be done, otherwise todays' intellectual people will not feel comfortable to sit in class. Any extra things added like Q&A, Essence, varadan, slogan, etc are not essential, but not incorrect. They are really useful. *Also, there is no need to cut anything. But some explanation could be given where some points relate just to past, for example, Baba says, "Nobody has become pure now". But after 1969, Brahma has become pure.
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ex-l

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post27 Jul 2008

mbbhat wrote:But after 1969, Brahma has become pure.

I do not think you can say that. Especially "pure" in terms of completed his spiritual journey.

You could say BK believe and teach Lekhraj Kirpalani is karmateet (free from negative karma), others might see him as having reach a level of enlightment. You cant mistake faith for surety.
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mbbhat

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post27 Jul 2008

ex-l wrote:You cant mistake faith for surety.

Dear Ex- l soul,

Murli is said to BKs and not outsiders. Outsiders will recognize in the end. In Avyakt Vani, it is clearly said Brahma has attained karmaateet stage and also mentioned that it is the highest stage. There are lots of praises for Brahma Baba. Even in Sakar Murli it is said, when this (Lekhraj) becomes pure, he will shed his body and will become Avyakt Brahma.

But, just by taking intellectually, you are correct.
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yogi108

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post28 Jul 2008

Let me try to answer the first question: 1976 was a disaster from the BK perspective ... If all of us notice, now the Destruction stuff is slowly reducing in its classes as well as classes by senior yogi's ... Let me also tell you all the BKs are also responsible for Destruction to be the central theme for the BKs. It is one of the most interesting aspects from my perspective of Gyan ... We all want to know how and when its going to happen and my guess is that the BK organization just played to the gallery ...

Secondly, why are the Murli's being edited ...? Again the double foreigners and the corresponding instruments mentioned that the intellectual souls who come to their centers do not appreciate the Sakar Murli as is because there seemed to be a lot of gibberish and it was not appreciated at all. SO it was decided that Murlis are going to be edited to suit the intellectual needs of students who come to the centers abroad ...

Now is that justified ... Any organization, and BKs are not the only ones, play to the gallery and need to bring in some reforms if they have to expand ... and that is what they are precisely doing ...

I do not think these are right things to do ... but who cares about some souls who think that their way is the right way ...

Yogi
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ex-l

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post28 Jul 2008

Fair statements Yogi. Many of the current leadership joined after the 50s, did not they? Nirwair, Shetty etc? They kept it all very quiet in the early 80s. I wonder what the ones that stayed were thinking? Sticky plastering their faith with "Baba was testing us" (an adoption from bhkati) and assuring themselves that their status in heaven would be even greater now because some of the musical chairs had become free.
mbbhat wrote:In Avyakt Vani, it is clearly said Brahma has attained karmaateet stage and also mentioned that it is the highest stage.

But what does that mean, given that no one can tell when Shiva was allegedly present or not ... or how and when Shiva even entered the BK religion at some point post-1950"

What it means, "Lekhraj Kirpalani became perfect and attained the highest state because Lekhraj Kirpalani said so" ...or ... "The Murli is true because the Murli says it is true". It is so self-referential. Given the errors, anomalies or misinterpretations one just cannot say that. This is the God that thought he only had 5 Billion children. Well, one can anything ... but one just has to present it as one's faith not 'the truth'. All we "know" is that Lekhraj Kirpalani died of a heart attack right after the World Renewal Trust was founded and that Adi Dev is partly fictional.
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Re: Questions for BKs

Post30 Jul 2008

yogi108 wrote:why are the Murli's being edited ...? Again the double foreigners and the corresponding instruments mentioned that the intellectual souls who come to their centers do not appreciate the Sakar Murli as is because there seemed to be a lot of gibberish and it was not appreciated at all. SO it was decided that Murlis are going to be edited to suit the intellectual needs of students who come to the centers abroad ... Now is that justified ... Any organization, and BKs are not the only ones, play to the gallery and need to bring in some reforms if they have to expand ... and that is what they are precisely doing ... I do not think these are right things to do ... but who cares about some souls who think that their way is the right way ... Yogi

Dear souls,

1) Baba says before getting nishchay (faith), one should not be brought in front of Baba. So it is clear that a newcomer never gets (or should never get!) Godly version directly. He gets/takes knowledge from a BK. So, there is DILUTION in the beginning itself! God himself says, “Don’t bring any new soul directly to me. It will be waste, because he will understand anything” [See the drama or magic here. Can we say, God is weak because even if somebody is brought in front of Baba, he cannot understand God?]

*When God HIMSELF or drama permitted the dilution, who are we (at least I) to question it?

No BK forces a newcomer by temptation or illegal means. Faith in God (Gyan) is developed in any newcomer by listening to a BK! *The seven days course or literature is not prepared by God. It is prepared by BKs and explained in different ways by different BKs. So who is cause for the development of faith in newcomer? It is the newcomer himself. *Without knowing what is Murli, faith has developed in newcomer. So how can he blame anybody after listening to Murlis even if it is edited?

2) If a child does not drink milk, mother will add sugar to it. If you call this as mixture or adultration, and accuse mother, it is left to you. If natural food is not tasty to someone, it is cooked and served. So I still find no fault in editing Murlis if it suits or helps today’s intellectual people. *Mother’s intention is just to serve the child. *Even BKs also put their tan, man, dhan in service. They just want to make all to receive God’s property. *So I really admire BKs even in this action. In fact, more the criticisms are made on BKs, my love and respect towards BKs increases. *Thanks to Baba for opening my key of intellect and keeping me to think positively. BKs are really World Mothers.
So thanks to yogi souls for the good news.

3) Just see, if a person does not accept BK literature(gets faith in knowledge of one week course), or has doubt in the seven days course, he is not eligible to listen Murli. So can’t I ask that if one does not get satisfied or finds faults in the edited Murlis, he is not eligible for even for the original Murlis?

4) When natural disaster occurs, people are given accommodation in ordinary tents or camps. They are served ordinary food. If one insists on five star hotel quality food, who will bother? So in this world of 6 billions be happy and feel gratitude to Baba and drama that you have got Godly knowledge before too late board.

5) Instead of accusing BKs for burying Murlis, I would salute them that because of them I have got at least those few Murlis. I had not done enough Bhakti to see Baba in Sakar. There is more fault in me than in them. These senior BKs are fortunate that they have seen Baba in Sakar and have written Murlis at least to some extent that something is available to us now.

I remember one incidence here. When Pratibha Patil was chosen as candidate for Presidential election, many parties started commenting about her character for many weeks. But in the end, she was elected as President. So I feel that BKs are definitely going to win whatever circumstance they may face in future. Oh gossipers, dear Brothers, souls or actors, carry on, carry on, carry on.

Regarding Destruction topic, I will write in another post to reduce length.

Dear yogi soul,

Will you suggest the RIGHT way in handling these?
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ex-l

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post30 Jul 2008

mbbhat wrote:There is DILUTION in the beginning itself ... God HIMSELF or drama permitted the dilution, who are we (at least I) to question it?

Not true at all. Its not dilution, it is the gradual education of the terminology and metaphors that permits individuals to understand the symbolism of the Murli. Its a building up not a watering down.
No BK forces a newcomer by temptation or illegal means.

Fraud is illegal. There is willful misrepresentation in order to gain money, goods and services going on within the Yugya. Undue influence is also unlawful. The cover up of the historical revision and failed predictions of Destruction are examples of this.
Faith in God (Gyan) is developed in any newcomer by listening to a BK! ... So who is cause for the development of faith in newcomer? It is the newcomer himself.

Firstly, one cannot really say "faith in God". One could say, "faith in BapDada as being God" or even "faith in BapDada as being Godly". Until we know more about the conversion of BK faith to Shiva in the 1950s, the only surety we have is what we see with our eyes, e.g. BapDada and Gulzar (or Virendra Dev Dixit).
Secondly, you exclude the gradual but persistent mental and social conditioning BK adherents are put through punishment and reward. They are taught an approved language of expression and their minds are made up for them. Who know what BKs really have faith in ... but it surely is not all the same thing.

The biggest problem is looking into this would be finding BKs that were capable any more of being honest. They are all so conditioned to giving "the right response". How many Western BKs REALLY believe in the 5,000 Cycle, for example?
So I still find no fault in editing Murlis if it suits or helps today’s intellectual people.

Its not done to "suits or help today’s intellectual people". It was done to stop the embarrassment of teachers reading out failed predictions of destruction and wrong populations of the world. it was done to stop BKs knowing their "god's" faults, so they would not question either their god or the leadership's faith in such a faulted god.

As one of "today's intellectual people", no one ever asked me if I wanted the Murlis edited. No one even told me it was going on or offered me the option. It was never discussed.

Again your equations is based on a fallacy that you have entered in early on. In fact, not so long ago I spoken to one of the very first and very famous Western Intellectual BKs and he told me that the reason he and they of that time learnt Hindi was out of frustration for the crappy editing of the Senior Sister who would sit and read the Murli and then "edit" out. In the old days, the Murlis were sent in Hindi and then edited live.

The Western Intellectual BKs did not want to know what she thought Baba was saying ... they want to know what Baba was saying.

I would argue that the editing and secrecy around the Murlis was based on protecting the interests of senior Sisters' self-image when they go out to do service in Interfaith and political meetings ... and to cover up for all the apparent racist and un-politically correct things BapDada or Lekhraj Kirpalani says by today's standards, e.g. things about dark skinned or crippled people etc.
he is not eligible to listen Murli.

All or almost all of the individuals requesting unedited Murlis are BKs. I have never heard of the issue of "eligibility" before. I also find this incredible insulting to, and presumptive against, academics and intellectuals.
[quote]Instead of accusing BKs for burying Murlis, I would salute them that because of them I have got at least those few Murlis. [quote]
And how far does this "positive thinking" go?

    Would you salute them for falsifying the history so that new BK would not be confused by the evolution of concepts?
    Would you salute them for falsifying the history so that new BKs would not realise how dumb they must have been to have though Lekhraj Kirpalani was God for 20 years as their numbers dwindled to just 60?
    Would you salute them for covering up that they had falsified the history so that new BKs would not loose faith in them as their god had obviously chosen them and he says he is always right (even when he is testing our faith by being wrong ... ?
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yogi108

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post30 Jul 2008

Excellent Post Mbhatt,

Can I suggest the right way in doing these?

YES
    1. I am aware that if the original Murlis are presented as is then no one in the current state can sit in class (apparently they are are powerful doses of Dharna)
    2. Even when Shiv Baba comes into Dadi Gulzar's body the power is reduced to such a level that the human body has the capability to accept and manage the surge of Power and also so many people out in Madhuban who have come to meet
So, I am aware of where you are coming from ... but if there is someone who wants access to these information then why do they at least not confide in them ...?

We are not talking about some fresher who comes to the BK center and says, I want the original Murlis ... We are talking about senior raj yogis who have given years and years of their life and bones to Baba, who have questions in their mind, who go to the senior Sisters and Dadi's, and then they are branded as ANTI-party ... this is where the pain starts ...

I came to the BKs since there was and is faith in what they communicated and my own experience with GOD ... now there are ways that leaders in the organization have conducted themselves that lead to people losing faith. Now as a true Brahmin are you going to keep quiet and be a witness to these atrocious deeds or are you atleast going to question these ...?

That is all I have to ask from you.
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mbbhat

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post02 Aug 2008

yogi108 wrote:I am aware that if the original Murlis are presented as is then no one in the current state can sit in class (apparently they are are powerful doses of Dharna). We are not talking about some fresher who comes to the BK center and says, I want the original Murlis ... We are talking about senior raj yogis who have given years and years of their life and bones to Baba, who have questions in their mind, who go to the senior Sisters and Dadi's, and then they are branded as ANTI-party ... this is where the pain starts ...

I came to the BKs since there was and is faith in what they communicated and my own experience with GOD ... now there are ways that leaders in the organization have conducted themselves that lead to people losing faith. Now as a true Brahmin are you going to keep quiet and be a witness to these atrocious deeds or are you atleast going to question these ...?

Dear Yogi soul,

1) Very happy to know that you are very much interested in Dharna. Can I know to what extent you have conquered lust? I have disclosed about me in this forum.

2) You may be correct that it would be difficult to sit in original Murli class. Hence it is obvious that it has to be diluted! Otherwise, it is impossible to give Godly message to others. Baba used saakshaatkaar technique. That too of Krishna and not of himself. Is this not a dilution?

3) I am not supporting those who dilute Murlis. Diluting with wrong intention is bad. Otherwise, it is OK. But I agree with you that for a pakka BK who are senior rajayogis you have mentioned, the original Murli should be given. But here again the question arises, who is Pakka BK?

Baba has said, "Is yagy kaa sambhaalnaa pavitr Brahmanon se hotaa hai". So it is not enough if one is in Gyan for so many years and have dne a lot of seva. The most important thing is to what extent you have conquered lust and other vices. In Avyakt Murlis also Baba has clearly said, "Brahman arthaat kaamjeet = Brahman= one who has conquered lust".

4) Just by reading edited Murlis, I have conquered lust to 80% (say to my scale). If one needs powerful Murli, then definitely he should be capable to imbibe in them. So, don't you think there is mistake in demanding original Murlis with body-consciousness?

5) I was reading and noting down points myself many Murlis one day in a center. Even I was called or doubted as a PBK. I have faced many problems. But my intention is, "Snake should die, but the stick should not break"

6) I asked you to suggest how to give knowledge to new generation using just original Murli. I did not get reply to this.

7) Science is good. But some use it for Destruction and some use it for construction. Those who use for construction are admired. Others accumulate sin. Similarly, knowledge is good. Some do service and some do disservice. Those who do dissevice get sin, others get punya.

8) What I feel is, one will feel pain when he conquers lust. Otherwise even after getting original Murlis, he will have pain. I am not saying that your demand is wrong. But you will have to wait. What I am saying that what all happens is natural. One always gets more than for what he deserves in this drama, let it be BK or agyaani. Hence complaining is foolishness.

9) Baba has also said, "meri rachnaa me kamee dekhte ho? = Do you see defect in my creation?" for those children who used to complain others.
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new knowledge

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Re: Questions for BKs

Post03 Aug 2008

mbbhat wrote:You may be correct that it would be difficult to sit in original Murli class. Hence, it is obvious that it has to be diluted! Otherwise, it is impossible to give Godly message to others.

Suppose, you are suffering from an uncurable desease; then ... then, do you think that as the medicine prescribed by a specialist (expert) physician may be so powerful that your body cannot digest it; that prescription should be edited or changed by a compounder working in the hospital of that physician???? Definately not. You would prefer to take the medicine exactly as prescribed by that specialist physician without any edition in that prescription by the compounder. You will believe that the specialist physician would give prescription so that your body may digest that medicine. Then ... then, how could you think that as the medicine (Shrimat) prescribed by the Supreme Surgeon (God) may be so powerful that we could not digest it, that prescription should be edited by some compounders (BKs)???? Does not that Supreme Surgeon (God) give prescription (Shrimat) as per the the capacity of His patients (Godly students)? Is it not correct to follow exactly the prescription (Shrimat) of that Supreme Surgeon without any edition in that prescription by compounders (BKs)?
Baba used saakshaatkaar technique. And that too of Krishna and not of himself. Is this not a dilution?

Yes, this is dilution. But, who done it? The Supreme Surgeon may dilute the power of medicine (Shrimat) as required. But, I shall not bear with the edition of the prescription (Shrimat) by the compounders (BKs). Let God do that dilution.
So, don't you think there is mistake in demanding original Murlis with body-consciousness?

Do you think only healthy persons are eligible to get treatment from a physician, i.e, we should make ourselves healthy before going to a physician for treatment? How could I eradicate my uncurable desease of body-consciousness without the proper treatment from the Supreme Surgeon (God) as you have prohibited to get treatment from that Supreme Surgeon without the eradication of the desease of body-consciousness? If I, myself, can eradicate disease of body-consciousness, then why is it necessary to get treatment from the Supreme Surgeon?
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Re: Questions for BKs

Post03 Aug 2008

Possibly, formating of documents of Shrimat may be accepted, i.e, addition of Murli essence, questions & answers, slogan may be accepted. That may be supplimentary. But, edition of Murlis cannot be accepted if Murlis are believed to be Shrimat.
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