Do BKs treat agyanis (non-BKs) as Shudras?

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mbbhat

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Do BKs treat agyanis (non-BKs) as Shudras?

Post25 Aug 2008

Some websites comment BKWSU negatively that, “BKs consider anybody other than BK as shudras, which is equivalent to an untouchable”.

But BKs put their tan, man and dhan to give the spiritual knowledge in the world. Even though they have faith that only a very few people would accept The Knowledge they give, they dedicate their life in giving the spiritual message. They do not hate agyanis (the one who is unaware of BK philosophy) at all. They give knowledge to all irrespective of caste, creed, religion...
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jay

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Re: Do BKs treat agyaanis as shudras?

Post25 Aug 2008

Hi, this is jay ... I just want to know for how long you are in this spiritual family?
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ex-l

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Re: Do BKs treat agyaanis as shudras?

Post25 Aug 2008

mbbhat wrote:They dedicate their life in giving the spiritual message. They do not hate agyanis (the one who is unaware of BK philosophy) at all. They give knowledge to all irrespective of caste, creed, religion.

Oh ... you are still at it, bhat.

You base your argument on a fallacy. A false argument. No one has said "BKs hate non-BKs". Many people have said they look down upon them and treat them like "untouchables" ... and I would broadly agree to that as accurate. BKs do not "hate" non-BKs ... its just that they wont touch them as rule, wont eat their food, wont sleep in their bed ... treat them as a "vicious" inferior spiritual sub-species which, to the BK philosophy, they are! So, "treat as shudras". Yes.

Typically, the Brahma-kumaris teach a simplified theology that does not reflect reality. The caste system is far more complex than the BKWSU portrays and, arguably, untouchables are even lower than shudras ... total outcasts. However, that is the specific word that I have heard BKs use of non-BKs and "Shudra", "ignorant", "unself-realised", "impure", "agyanis" and all the other words used in a patronising fashion.

And so what to the so-called "service" angle??? "Give knowledge" means "indoctrinate".

    • BKs are not "serving" Shudras, they are evangelising in an attempt to convert (fully or partially).
    • BKs are constantly encouraged to do so and conform "to earn their fortune" in the Golden Age (and find favour with the senior Sisters today). Any BKs not doing so, or refusing to are generally sidelined or looked down upon as second best.
    • BK evangelise to all "irrespective of caste, creed, religion" because they are constantly on the lookout for new converts from any background.
I am not sure about the "irrespective of caste" bit though. In my opinion, BKs tend to aim at and attract the higher levels of society.

It is interesting to ask where this duality in the BK face comes from. I have been thinking about it myself. My feeling is that the external language the BKWSU presents comes from their experience and exposure to the Interfaith movement. One they have milked assiduously. My feeling is that to fit in, and not draw attention to their extremist/supremacist message, they have adopted the language of the Interfaith world to their ends.

However, my feeling is also that this does not reflect the reality of the BKWSU position. It is just shop window dressing to market the product. Of course, some BK remain fairly normal but the more normal they are the more borderline their are as BKs.
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newlife

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post25 Aug 2008

You're so far off the mark ex. When Brahmins give knowledge to others, the ones I know just want to see that person sparkle with the feeling of having a close link with their Father. If they say that they are getting so much love from Baba, what do you think we do, sit at Amrit Vela and say, "that's another palace for me".

Perhaps the subject should be, "does ex-l treat Brahmins like shudras?". My mum's an ex-BK but I eat her food. She's 86 and if she comes back to Baba before she leaves the body then great, because my love for her is such that I'd love her to leave the body with a positive attitude with the feeling of not too much loss
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ex-l

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post26 Aug 2008

newlife wrote:What do you think we do, sit at Amrit Vela and say, "that's another palace for me" ...

There is no guarantee whatsoever that whoever, or whatever, it is in Gulzar is "their Father" ... and even less of a guarantee it is "God". I would go as far to say it is not.

So what is all the language about in the Murlis? "Create your subjects ... earn your inheritance ... save your devotees", or do all the BKs not believe in what BapDada says in them any more? Look at the language of Mount Abu's fund raising letters. Earn ... earn ... earn. No, I was not think Amrit Vela = fortune but, yes, I was thinking service = fortune. That is what it says in the Murlis. (If the public were allowed free access to them, we could confirm that).

To be honest, the impression I get from the Brahma Kumari movement these days is that BapDada is a bit of an embarrassment, like some bumbling old, albeit lovable, granddad who keeps getting his dates wrong and telling his same old stories that everyone has heard but not one listens to any more ... the family has grown up and moved on. The "inheritance" might be a bit of a joke but it keeps them going through the rough times.

All the same, I think the vast majority of BKs, i.e. the Bharatwasis, DO believe in it literally and the 'caste element' of the BKWSU is nigh on universal.

Fine, be in love with your channelled entity, get a tingle back now and again to keep you going, "serve" your fallen mother (but be careful of any feelings and attachment) but, please BKs ... be honest to the outside world about he inside.

Service not PR and propaganda ...
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newlife

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post26 Aug 2008

So, if it's not God teaching The Knowledge in the Murlis, my question to you is, does God exist and what would he tell us if he does exist? As I understand if you never really accepted The Cycle, surely a major foundation stone of being a Brahmin. Because surely to be an ex-BK you have to be a BK first. Or am I mistaken in this reckoning?
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mbbhat

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post26 Aug 2008

The reason for posting this topic is, I had seen in one of the ex-BK websites commenting BKWSU using the word Shudra. Now, I am not able to find the exact web page the one I had seen. But there is something in this address also- http://xbkinfo.infogami.com/Classic_Posts. [It is difficult to search here. One advice is to copy the whole content into a word document and search for word Shudra].

In fact, BKs love shudras maximum. They have faith that Madhuban is the holiest place in this world. Still they give warm invitation to shudras(agyaanis) to Shivir, Workshop, Conference programs. BKs serve food BETTER than what they eat. They charge LESSER than that for BKs. Visitors are permitted even to kitchen of Madhuban. They are given accomodation in the same rooms and buildings which is given for BKs from all over the world. They are permitted to enter Brahma Baba's room, cottage.

So BKs name agyaanis as shudras, but love them maximum. Then why Murli says Non-Bks are shudras? A doctor is the one who loves or can love a patient maximum. A doctor has to come close to the patient. There is risk of spreading the disease. So, doctor has to take care of precaution. He does/may not touch patient with bare hands. He uses glowses. It does not mean that he hates the patient.

Similarly Baba informs children(BKs) to take precautions while being in the company of vicious people of the world. Because as the company, is the color(jaisa sang, vaisa rang). Aim is to remain detached like lotus being in dirt. This is the glory of few Brahmins(BKs) in the midst of crores of agyaanis.

No Murli says, hate shudras. Indian Lokik Brahmins may hate shudras, but not BKs.

In fact, BKs are the only one who love all the shudras. All others treat one another as enemies (e.g. different nations or religions).

BKs are the only one who would like to meet anybody of this world and give spiritual message.
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arjun

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post26 Aug 2008

Omshanti. Although it is true that no Murli asks Brahmin souls to hate the so-called Shudras (non-Brahmin souls) and it may also be true that most Brahmins (not just BKs as written by mbbhat Bhai, but all those who consider themselves to be ShivBaba's children) may not be treating non-Brahmins as Shudras, but it is also true that the non-Brahmins do feel that we Brahmins are treating them as Shudras. And the basic reason for this is non-acceptance of food prepared/offered by them to Brahmins.

I have already written on this forum and I would like to repeat that despite having good relationship with my colleagues, despite being respected by many of them, most of them directly or indirectly express that I am treating them as shudras by not accepting food prepared/offered by them. Whenever parties are organized by my colleagues to celebrate some or the other happy occasion, they have to make separate arrangements for me like milk/curd/fruit/biscuit, etc. because I cannot eat the sweets or namkeens that they get from sweet shops for the party. Although I am following (or just managing to follow) the food-related Shrimat, but I do feel embarrased at facing such direct comments or indirect gestures (that I am treating them as shudras) when I myself have not gained victory over lust and other vices.

There are many BKs/PBKs who do not even accept water (or other permissible food items) from non-BKs/PBKs. There are many surrendered BKs/PBKs who do not accept food prepared by non-surrendered BKs/PBKs. In most BK centers non-surrendered BKs are not allowed to cook food for Bhog. Is this not a form of untouchability?

On Godly Service,
Arjun
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jann

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post27 Aug 2008

Well, I definitely feel that I am treated like Shudra, or as something else than the Brahmin so-called family.

Discrimination and ego, I would say!!
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mbbhat

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post27 Aug 2008

arjun wrote:1) the basic reason for this is non-acceptance of food prepared/offered by them to Brahmins. 2) but I do feel embarrased at facing such direct comments or indirect gestures (that I am treating them as shudras) when I myself have not gained victory over lust and other vices. 3) There are many BKs/PBKs who do not even accept water (or other permissible food items) from non-BKs/PBKs. 4) There are many surrendered BKs/PBKs who do not accept food prepared by non-surrendered BKs/PBKs. 5) In most BK centers non-surrendered BKs are not allowed to cook food for Bhog. Is this not a form of untouchability?

1a) A person (from England or France) came to our lowkik home and stayed in our home for three days. He did not drink fresh water even from well! He just bought MINERAL WATER from shops. He used to remove skin from the chikoo (sapota fruit) before eating [There is wastage of natural vitamins and pollution due to empty plastic bottles thrown in our compound]. He had fear of germs in India. Is it correct to say that he treated us as shudras? Give respect and take respect. Everyone has his own lifestyle!

1b) Sometimes, Swamijis (Indian lokik human gurus) come with their disciples to their devotees home and stay for a week. The devotees give them separate room. They cook food themselves, do not eat the food prepared from devotees. They do pooja, etc and then leave. The devotees pay for all the expenses and consider that it is their fortune that swamijis visited their home! See the greatness of celibacy and value of Shastras in India!

The dharana of BKs are equivalent to swamijis.

The point no. 1a is for non-believer of God and no. 1b above is for believers of God. How can they blame BKs if they do not eat food prepared from others?

Once there was shifting of BK centre in our place. So the Sister in charge stayed for one day in our house. (Our family is vegetarian by birth. Most of the family members had come to Gyan). The Sister cooked food herself. We were happy. What is wrong in that?

If in the point No. 1 above, if one has no knowledge of germs, then he will definitely think or feel bad of the other. This is due to ignorance. So, till knowledge of effect of thoughts on food and food on mind is known, such comments would be there. It is normal.

So, if I understand/feel these things as normal, then only I can be normal. Then only I can make others feel normal. First knowledge, second swaparivartan, last is vishwaparivartan. There is both study and examination to BKs as well as chance to give message to others (seva). If you explain this properly to others, many will not feel bad. Even if they feel bad, later they will come to know that it was their own fault. Another thing is, BKs are Master Creators. So they are doing new things. Naturally, there will be objections. That is why Baba says, “Becoming Brahmin is challenging Maya, being in war field”.

* Assume that there are four Brothers who are non veg by birth. After some time, if one of them wishes to turn to vegetarian, do you think it is his mistake? Is it not the responsibility of the other Brothers to understand him? So I feel when a non BK turns BK, it is also the responsibility of the others to recognize him, else become nyara(detached) from him. Instead if such Brothers comment the vegetarian person (here BK) what can be said!?

* Murli says, ‘a child is equal to Mahatma’. Baba even praises agyaani sanyaasis. Baba says if a BK (having faith) commits lustful actions, then he is a Shudra. Then is it correct to say, “BKs consider anybody who do not believe in BK philosophy as Shudra?”

3) Explained above

4) Till we become soul conscious, there is need of gap between a male and female. In a class, Brothers and Sisters sit separately. In a family, there is no such gap, because there is feeling of oneness. So, till BKs become pure, gap (discipline) has to be enforced. Hence it is not advisible for surrendered BKs to take food prepared by non-surrendered BKs [exception is only Madhuban, which is almost behad].

5) If BK Brothers or Sisters are not allowed to cook for bhoga, it is internal problem. Others do not have right to interfere in that. I have seen in many centres BK Brothers and Sisters (students) do cooking for bhoga. In Madhuban, Sevadharis (non-surrendered BKs) cook in the kitchen. Don’t they offer it for bhoga? Has Baba said in Murli that it is necessary that BK students should do cooking in kitchen in BK centres to pass in RajaYoga? Has any BK complained about this? Does any BK feel that it is untouchability? If so, then there is lack of maturity. There are different types of services.

2) In BK life, there are three steps. 1) Conquer Lust, 2) Give Godly message of Manmanabhav and Madhyaajeebhav and 3) Forget body and all bodily relations and become karmaateet. Till the first step is not firm at least 50%, any BK/PBK will be slave of Maya.
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ex-l

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post27 Aug 2008

mbbhat wrote:BKs are the only one who would like to meet anybody of this world ...

"Only"? Do you really believe this, mbbhat? Another one of your utterly exaggerated fallacies (false arguments) yet again. Surely even you realise this!?!
Only ... I could name you 100 cults all of whom would love to meet anyone who is willing to listen to their members evangelise. And plenty of just simple, good people would do to without stuffing religion down the others throat. Do you remember the name for ex-BKs? "Lower than the lowest of the low".
Then why Murli says Non-Bks are shudras?

Lekhraj Kirpalani's superiority complex?

What you underline in your statement is that BKs 'happy smiley face' is extremely conditional, on the basis that they get to evangelise and the Shudra listens and accepts. If the Shudra starts to question, or puts up logical argument and evidence (or is an informed ex-member that sees through the mask) ... see the BK's face change and them walk away.

Do the BKs that beat up the PBKs have "maximum love" for the PBKs? Why do they treat them like an enemy, banish them from centers, threaten them and call them a "virus" ... ?

Have a look at how your very own leadership responds when asked to correspond on difficult issues, internal corruption or address the cover ups and falsified history in the religion they promote. Is that "maximum love"?
mbbhat wrote:http://xbkinfo.infogami.com/Classic_Posts ... [It is difficult to search here. One advice is to copy the whole content into a word document and search for word Shudra]

There is a search option for the xBKChat archive at the top of its page, here. This forum has its own advance search option.
BKs name agyanis as shudras, but love them maximum ... Baba informs children (BKs) to take precautions while being in the company of vicious people of the world ... Aim is to remain detached like lotus being in dirt.

BKs might "lovebomb" possible recruits and newcomers ... its soon wears off. As Baba says in the Murli, there are some BKs that will not even drink water if offered by certain other BKs. Does it really surprise you that non-Brahma Kumaris are offended at being called Shudras, vicious, demons or "dirt"? Especially given the fact that those calling them so are not exactly very enlightened nor free from corruption themselves?

Yes, sure, there are plenty of reasonable BK followers but what you are talking about is not "love" but patronage and condescension for the same of expansion and earning status and "an inheritance"?
newlife wrote:So, if it's not God teaching The Knowledge in the Murlis, my question to you is, does God exist and what would he tell us if he does exist?

Newlife, why does it have to be "God" to be good? Why cant it just be a more enlightened individual or individuals?

How and when was "God Shiva" introduced into the Yagya after 1950 ... because he did not exist before. In the 1930s and 1940s, God was still within and the Brahm. Why did the BKWSU cover this up? Why did they lie to us in Adi Dev and so on?
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newlife

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post27 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:Newlife, why does it have to be "God" to be good? Why cant it just be a more enlightened individual or individuals? How and when was "God Shiva" introduced into the Yagya after 1950 ... because he did not exist before. In the 1930s and 1940s, God was still within and the Brahm. Why did the BKWSU cover this up? Why did they lie to us in Adi Dev and so on?

I haven't got an answer for you ex-l. All I can say is, that in the Murli once the higher being, or god, or whatever said that, "if you want to see the most pure and the most impure you can see them here". I respect your tenacity and energy that you put into what your doing daily, and call me blind if you want, but I have always believed the truth always comes out. Maybe you're the one to reveal it but for me I get too tired and miserable with heavy discussions. I just listen to the Murlis and my music, and if a BK slanders another I smile like a village idiot ... all the best.
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ex-l

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post27 Aug 2008

Funnily enough, I agree with you on the heavy discussion angle and respect your "bullet dodging" stance. Getting to the truth should be simple and easy. It should be gushing out everywhere and folks should be running to find or give it ...

To answer your question (which I did not), for me the whole question of God has been utterly spoilt and tarnished by my experience of the Brahma Kumari leadership. There is no need to assume a God exists in their form. I have no problem with the idea of a god. It is everything else that is being thrown in the mix that I question.

What God says to me is that those of god are recognised as the ones that throw the money changers out of the temple.
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arjun

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post28 Aug 2008

mbbhat wrote:In fact, BKs are the only one who love all the shudras. All others treat one another as enemies (e.g. different nations or religions).
BKs are the only one who would like to meet anybody of this world and give spiritual message.

ex-l wrote:Do the BKs that beat up the PBKs have "maximum love" for the PBKs? Why do they treat them like an enemy, banish them from centers, threaten them and call them a "virus" ... ?

This is very much true. BKs are asked not to talk to PBKs, leave alone eating food cooked by PBKs. But as always, there are exceptions. I know some surrendered BK teachers, whose parents are PBKs. Although they are asked by their Seniors not to eat food cooked by their parents, they do not follow their 'advice'.
mbbhat wrote:Similarly Baba informs children(BKs) to take precautions while being in the company of vicious people of the world.

In the above sentence mbbhat Bhai considers only BKs as Baba's children. Is this not a form of discrimination?
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mbbhat

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Re: Do BKs treat agyanis as shudras?

Post28 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote: 1) I could name you 100 cults all of whom would love to meet anyone who is willing to listen to their members evangelise. 2) Do you remember the name for ex-BKs? "Lower than the lowest of the low".
3) If the Shudra starts to question, or puts up logical argument and evidence (or is an informed ex-member that sees through the mask) ... see the BK's face change and them walk away.
4) Do the BKs that beat up the PBKs have "maximum love" for the PBKs?
5) Have a look at how your very own leadership responds when asked to correspond on difficult issues, internal corruption or address the cover ups and falsified history in the religion they promote. Is that "maximum love"?
6) BKs might "lovebomb" possible recruits and newcomers ... its soon wears off. As Baba says in the Murli, there are some BKs that will not even drink water if offered by certain other BKs.


1) If possible, please mention. You can send me PM or however you like. I would definitely listen to them more than they listen to me if they are interested in loving God or/and developing good habits in life .

Dear ex-l soul,

You ask me to stick to the point (topic). But seems that you would like to go outside the topic more than me. My English is poor so, difficult to grasp fully. But it seems that you do not read or understand fully.

2) I had said BKs love agyaanis. I did not say BKs love ex BKs. I know that the name for (at least or most , may be) ex BKs is traitors. But again see, BKs love even ex BKs if they really wish to become again BKs. There are several cases of ex BKs who have again become BKs. If you need, I can give you the names and places. Just see, BKs love even traitors!

3) This is partly correct. Applicable to only weak or new BKs. I have had many arguements and did not think bad about anybody. Recently, when I was beaten by agyanis and even police, held in police station for absolutely no fault from my side, I did not think bad about them.

4) Same as point No. 2. PBKs are also considered as traitors in BK philosophy. [By hurry you might have written like this. It is OK]. But I would like to mention here that, *I had taken one full cooked meal in an AIVV, one in PBK geetapathashala, one(a little quantity, since I had already had food at that time) in home of a PBK and a fruit in another PBK geetapathashala. If I treat PBKs as Shudra, would I had accepted these from them? Also there are cases where PBKs have again become BKs. So, BKs love second type of traitors also!

Gradually you may get more incidences like this as time moves. You may have questions, stress or feelings or may be simply doubts, whatever you may think. But it is both drama and your karma. One needs patience to know the secrets.

5) You cannot say that this is against love. Because BKs do not tempt or force anybody to accept their philosophy. They do not accept even donations given by outside people (a few exceptions may be) It is due to fear and/or ignorance. In fact, there is love. They feel that let others love Baba as BKs. But it is difficult to explain this to you fully. It will take a lot of time to understand history of forum. I had expressed this even before. But I am on the path. You are just sitting in one place and just shouting at everybody whoever passes by.

6) I said BKs love any agyani (newcomer). I did not say BKs maintain same love afterwards. The topic is about shudras. The reason for dying of love is obvious and simple.

    a) a BK is donor. So when a newcomer turns to be a BK, he should not have expectation (begging for love). God is ocean of love and BK is the direct child of God. So, it is his responsibility to GIVE rather than to expect. My question to such complaining BKs or ex BKs is, “Did you really give more love to other BKs than you had received in your BK life?”
    b) as soon as one becomes BK, he is in war field, fighting with Maya.
    c) Becoming BK means trying to become member of a family. Now, all the BKs were shudras before. They were the highest impure souls. So, there will be conflict of sanskars.
    d) In a family, one does not wish to find fault in others. Even if he finds, he does not gossip about it. He tries to adjust. So if a BK wishes to be a part of the family, it is also his responsibility to adjust. By remembering Baba, we get the POWER TO ADJUST. When BK sees faults in others, then he will be weak and will not be able to digest(receive) love of even good BKs.
But actually, if one starts loving BKs even though there is some mistakes, then he can get returns multifold. Such BKs would get higher ranks. In my practical life, I have experienced both in my life. In my earlier BK life, I had arguments with BK teachers. But later even when some BKs got angry with me, I had good wishes and now, I get both love and respect from others. *Even when I was beaten by agyaani people I did not get bad wishes in my mind. My faith is,

To love (develop, uplift) an agyaani, one should love (become) BK.

To love a BK, one should love Baba (God). So, love for Baba is the only one key for complete success. MERA Baba, HAMARA Baba, SABKAA Baba.

* Baba loves me more than how much I love Baba. So, I should love others more than others love me. Then only "it is follow Father". Such a son only can do "Son shows Father"

* Just 108 souls get victory over Maya. You had also agreed that there are plenty of reasonable followers in BK. So, from your own belief, is it not wise to have some patience?

* In future, if I fail to reply to your questions (due to the reasons mentioned above and before), hope you will not be influenced negatively by me.
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