Forgiveness

Anyone, what's the direct opposite of forgiveness in one word ?

Could be bitterness, or rancour. The most important thing is to forgive ourselves. After that it is often useful to confess all our character faults and the things we have done that we are ashamed of to a real person. This is incorporated as part of the 12 step programme. The idea is that to confess to God is too easy, so we often need to speak to a real flesh and blood person. Not a close friend or family member, this never works, often a complete stranger is best. In a way this web site fulfills that kind of function for me. I feel very embarrassed and ashamed sometimes about things I have done, but I admit to them here.

I don't really think there is an opposite, to forgive is an act

I don't really think there is an opposite, to forgive is an act

I would say it is important to acknowledge that even if you do forgive someone then it does not mean that what they did to you was right.

I would say it is important to acknowledge that even if you do forgive someone then it does not mean that what they did to you was right.

Nor that they do not remain in some sort of quarantine from the rest of the community to continue on their abuse ... surely?

I don't know. I am asking. I don;t think forgiveness is a great idea unless the individual has realised and repented. What I see is individual just going, Ho-ho-ho, and going off and doing more of it.

Inner letting go of resentments, accusation etc is good for the self, fair enough, but commonsense suggests there is another half to the problem. How is that managed?

Nor that they do not remain in some sort of quarantine from the rest of the community to continue on their abuse ... surely?

Agreed. IMHO the "forgiveness" is for my own benefit. The perpetrators of any abuses or crimes should be dealt with in an expedient manner, ie punished or locked up or forced into treatment, whatever is appropriate. Otherwise we would have sex offenders and murderers running around loose in society.

I don't know. I am asking. I don;t think forgiveness is a great idea unless the individual has realised and repented. What I see is individual just going, Ho-ho-ho, and going off and doing more of it.

Exactly. Bring the full force of the law on them and isolate them from those of us who live law abiding lives.

Inner letting go of resentments, accusation etc is good for the self, fair enough, but commonsense suggests there is another half to the problem. How is that managed?

Yes, we have only been talking about the mental and emotional well being of the victim here, and it is good that they should find some way of not letting the crime ruin their whole life. But what about the criminal. This discussion reminds me of the ideal of "Unconditional Love". On a person to person level you can be perfectly sure that There are very stringent conditions attached to my loving anybody. Unconditional love? What does that mean? You love someone who betrays or hurts you? OK as an ideal from a distance maybe, maybe not. But in a personal relationship? Forget it!

In BK-ese I used to call it Shrimat, Manmat and DOORmat.

Forgiveness is "thanking the person for giving me the experience". This comes from "The Secret". I don't even think we need to bother about what should happen to those who perpetrate your life in a negative way, all you are doing is carrying a bag of negative energy at all times, it doesn't have any use doing so, yes, there needs to be a time of healing, but the focus should be on something you'd like to have in your carry bag, not something that is needlessly there, or in fact should not be there in the first place.

We all start out with an empty bag. So what is forgiveness when it was not there in the first place.

(You can get understand the Secret by checking out the thread here. The clip from Oprah Winfrey is a great start).

I have a question. Is accepting an apology an act of forgiveness?

Someone once said that forgiveness is the fragrance that the flower leaves on the shoe that steps on it.

I have a question. Is accepting an apology an act of forgiveness?

I would say "yes" because it would imply letting go of whatever bitterness and baggage you feel towards that person.

Going back to bansy's Oprah reference, I enjoy Dr Phil; if anyone knows who I mean; that straight talking Texan bald guy ... and his often used point is that we have a reason for hanging onto "baggage". I've found for myself that honestly examining what my reasons are for hanging onto resentments and anger can be very helpful, as long as I do it with acceptance and love.

I have a question. Is accepting an apology an act of forgiveness? Someone once said that forgiveness is the fragrance that the flower leaves on the shoe that steps on it.

While I take a little time to see if i understand exactly what it means, there is a thought about forgiveness that explores the possibility that: It is really ONLY the person seeking forgiveness (aka the perpetrator) who is in a position to say whether or not he feels forgiven by the injured party aka the person extending forgiveness.

In this scenario there is a the requirenment for great clarity and spiritual wisdom on the part of both sides. Without this mutual wisdom the secret of 'forgiving and being forgiven' may elude us altogether or be a one-sided affair. So from a Gyani perspective might the secret to forgiveness be unlocked via the soul's inculcation and expression of its 'selfless' nature? Going a bit further, might it be that forgiveness ought never to be something that a perpetrator requests but something that can only be effective if it is freely given by the victim? And further, can a victim afford NOT to forgive when the bottom lime may be that holding on to that pain represents a kind of self-mutilation.

Apologies if I have posted a riddle but as I see it one of the philosophies behind Gyani teachings is that we continually find a way to cleanse our hearts of them/us type feelings. In our present imperfect world in which the expression of love has become confused - some might argue corrupted or absent altogether - we have had to create laws to "right the wrongs" because forgiveness itself is often not enough. So yes, I can see that the true acceptance of an apology is an act of forgiveness. But how to develop that elevated nature? Just some ideas.

So, why don't we all forgive the BKs, get our whites on, and get along to the centre and let these lunatics loose on our feelings? I doubt it would be appreciated as, it is expected, and you would no doubt be expected to accept without question any further mental abuse from them. Remember, they are far higher than you. At that time, you are a flower who is being scraped from the elevated BK shoe.

Otherwise, I like the point about not having to or feel obliged to either steal the weaknesses of others, or carry their baggage with us. Pity it is created in the first place simply because some are too elevated to listen and learn. I guess these things are not necessary if you are IN CHARGE!

Equality between Sisters and Brothers (spiritual Brothers) is imminent.

Dear Sparkal:

Sorry, but I do not understand what you are saying in your last post. It is a bit too ambiguous for my comprehension. Can you try again? Thanks.

- we have had to create laws to "right the wrongs" because forgiveness itself is often not enough. So yes, I can see that the true acceptance of an apology is an act of forgiveness. But how to develop that elevated nature? Just some ideas.

That is what exactly tells in Murli's daily. IF someone has done anything wrong, they can correct it by listening to the Murli's.

IBHS
MITRA

That is what exactly tells in Murli's daily. IF someone has done anything wrong, they can correct it by listening to the Murli's.

Does he say listen or read?

So, Mitra, why do not you people let us have access to them then without twisting our arms to have to come to your centers when you want us to and follow your leaders? Or let us watch the video streams?

Long time ago, I used to connect to a center - the nearest one to me - that was many hundreds of miles away ... My car by the way, as with most cars, doesn't run on fresh air fuel, neither do I use Baba's bhandaras $ for it! The center-in-charge (even now, ask yourself why, it is a student-less center, no wonder) was so smart that any time I made it there, would reward me with an anorexic-looking batch of Murlis (2 or 3 whilst recommended daily intake is commonly 1!), thinking that this way I would be stimulated to check in more often ... This leads me to think that the main requirement for being granted a place on the gaddhi, is having a low IQ!!

So, these arm twisters are really pathetic, but they don't realize it, being so "intoxicated" with their position. End of the story, and let it be a warning for those who waste time and create bad karma misusing power, of course Baba always made sure I got the Murlis from other less irresponsible instruments, and like many other people I desert that particular center.

When we blame another for something, anything, we create a connection with them. We allocate them a partition where they can exist, a region within, which is ruled by animosity and perversion. Blame may become like a portal from you to others, but the energy cant be positive surely. Who benefits from this? Divide and rule policies may benefit from a blame culture where there is conflict between people, people canceling each other out, defeating each other. There is nothing to say that there is not a third party who benefits.
I am observing a semi breakdown in the ability in people to actually operate as a group in a harmonious way(OK, its not an exclusive) .
Selfishness, self promotion, fear of failure, fear of success, the thing is, if there is no humility in putting the self forward, then we rely on others to put us forward. What if this natural rhythm of putting each other forward and therefore not having to put the self forward, which has little self respect in it surely, breaks down and becomes the opposite whereby if you don't promote your self you will be left out in the cold and left behind. ('why, whats wrong with that?' many in the world may say, 'it is natural') 'So is the end of hell pal'.
So, someone somewhere needs to take a brave step and be first to unconditionally put others forward. The thing then is, is that soul who has been put forward going to put others forward in return, using the slingshot of having been put forward by others? The chain is broken the moment someone thinks of putting them self forward through using the energy which came from others. The supply is cut off from the next in line to be put forward, and an opposite current may flow eventually instead.
Global Psychological warfare? Universal even?......Perhaps we have other reasons to rase our consciousness other than the surface option of 'do I want to be religious, spiritual?, change myself'? Would I change my approach if deeper farther reaching reasons were to emerge? Survival?
Sounds a bit extreme perhaps, we should never forget the term Ravans kingdom of illusion, or should that be ILL- oosing from the seams. Multi layered illusions and dis information to cause chaos, to subdue.
We only ever subdue our SELF, don't we? Putting the self forward may subdue others, but harmony may be difficult to sustain. The coordinator, members of comities, they exist to promote the best interests of those they represent. When they put themselves forward, something goes, the harmony is broken, or becomes its opposite energy. Imagine if God started to compete with us? It would be obscene. Imagine banks became competitive? Um.....