Your God or mine?

für Deutsch sprechende Ex-Bks aus Nederland, Osteuropa und Russisch-Staaten, ihre Freunde und Familie
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ex-l

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Re: Your God or mine?

Post02 Jul 2009

Don't worry ... it's not the BKWSU here and so your audience is different, but I think folks are sincere. The forum goes through different moods from time to time. I suspect there is the problem, the posts were not written in the here and now for us and felt a little strange.

My questions are not meant to be heavy, even if they are penetrating. However, they are genuinely posted. I don't have "the final solution" nor I am pushing one.

I suspect most folks here are "once bitten, twice shy" and asking a bit more of each other than you might expect down at your local BK Raja Yoga shop or interfaith meeting.

I am still after a genuine answers ... is the god of the BKs, the god of all religions, what was your experience in Mount Abu etc. You can be real here.
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marja

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Re: Your God or mine?

Post03 Jul 2009

Again, I have no idea what is the truth about God. The only thing I know is what I feel and experience. I remember in Madhuban ... standing in line before Baba ... I was so curious to look in the eyes of the Sister ... what would I see? God? At the moment it was my turn a Sister gave me a flower to give to Baba. It fell and I picked it up and Baba's eyes were already at the next person.

I missed the dristy. I was furious. Should I start again to wait for hours? Angry as I was, the white light came to me again. As if it would say ... don't worry ... I am here for you. Was it Baba? Or another God? or something else. I don't know. It made me so full of happines and bliss.

I also know that people had the same sort of experience who are Buddhist and Christian or no religion at all. My mother who had no religion had experiences like this. She felt one with the whole world at times. She did not like the BK. I remember I introduced her to one of the teachers. He said kindly that she was always welcome. She said: You don't have to teach me anything ... I can teach you!

So, I cannot give you the truth. We have to figure it out ourselves.

Have a good day, Marja
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lokila

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Re: Your God or mine?

Post03 Jul 2009

What I find so interesting in this thread is a lot of folks here feel they have lost something which was very dear and very true form them, whilst Marja is very happy to embrace just her experiences of bliss which she relates to God. It doesn't matter to her who he is, how he looks like, what his goal is, where he is, when he came (or always was), if he interferes with world history, for whom he is here, why he should exist etc.

All these questions seem irrelevant because it's only the experience that matters to her and this is the proof of his existence.

I remember how furious and disappointed I was when my parents confirmed what I heard form a friend at school: Santa Claus did not exist! I felt terrible they lied to me all those years and I felt stupid for my blind faith. Even at such a young age. But all these years behind I had a lot of fun when it was Santa Claus time. Anyway, I felt they ruined it all for me now.

Being a BK one can give answers to all the questions above. God is a point of light, the Supreme Soul, comes in the Confluence Age, specially for BKs etc. etc. Now when one gets tired of BK life because of many reasons which can be read all over the forum, the experiences of happiness or peace are not the proof of God's existence anymore. The fairytale seemed to be untrue and we lost our faith in God being the one as described by the Brahma Kumaris.

I took me years to get rid of the concept of God as being defined by the BK. Now I have no clue what God is, if he's made up by humans or not. The idea of 'my God' as Marja describes, an undefined entity ... for me it is just not within reach somehow. It sounds as if I just should make up something. Meaning your God does not have to be my God, we both have different ones, not?

Doesn't this mean it is just a product of our own imagination? Or is God to you an entity able to change colors like a chameleon, taking every form he wishes (like Vishnu in Hinduism)? Or is he no entity at all, just 'something' which is omnipresent? Or ... maybe it just doesn't matter to you, because it's all about what you experience.

Then again ... why calling this God?

Maybe I am asking too many questions. I don't mean to push things or make a big point or something, it is just that I am exploring and I am very curious about these things, really out if genuine interest. I've turned from a BK-student into an ex-BK-student :-).
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marja

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Re: Your God or mine?

Post03 Jul 2009

Ha Lokila,

The point is that one of the teachers told me, when I asked how do you know God exist, to experience myself. When I spread my arms (sorry I bring the spreading up again) and the white light came to me ... I called it God because of my question and her answer. If she had said: Source or Kundalini or whatever ... I had called the light by that name. A lot of people look shocked at me when I mention God. God is just a word. That what is coming through me and the huge effect of a feeling of Love with a 'big L' is what it is.

Someone said I experienced myself without the limits we normally have. All religions claim God in their own way. The thruth??? who knows. The BK always said that people have difficulties getting rid of their image of God as the Punisher. In the meantime, Baba became in their Murlis is often The Punisher (Feeling like falling from high buildings, or never reach the Golden Age).

Now you had to get rid of that image.

I cannot believe that God will threaten people. For me, God is a loving energy and we as pure souls are a part of God. Something like that. My ego keeps me away from the relation which is always there ... I just have to be aware again and I feel it. Not so immense like those two times ... but I feel it anyhow.
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ex-l

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Re: Your God or mine?

Post03 Jul 2009

marja wrote:Again, I have no idea what is the truth about God. The only thing I know is what I feel and experience. ... So, I cannot give you the truth. We have to figure it out ourselves.

I like the sound of your mother.

"Absolute Truth" is probably a little too much to aim for ... but, without exploring deeper, it sounds like you might still be psychically hooked up to the "god of the BKs". Personally, I do not think that is the same "Universal God" that you are talking about, or most other sages from the Hindu to Jung and Joseph Campbell talk about. We should think about it and look into it a little bit more.

Funnily enough, in the early days of the BKWSU, from 1932 to until about the 1950s, they believed in the Universal Light and there was no dot Shiva at all. There was no mention of 'Shiva Baba' whatsoever. I am intrigued how and when it was introduced.

Please don't feel you have to be defensive, we are not attacking you. You can understand that we have all had a belly full of the BKWSU and so reject anything that sounds or comes across just like it. Its a big shame the the BKWSU should leave such a bad impression of "God".

I agree with you. The contradictions are many. All that fear and shame based language, or the End of the World stuff, is not a God of Love talking either. It was not. I ask if it may have been just Lekhraj Kirpalani speaking under the influence of some spirit, or just free association of the sub-conscious stuff in his mind? (sub-conscious ... supra-conscious ... it ought to be precise language but I am just pointing in a rough direction).
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lokila

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Re: Your God or mine?

Post03 Jul 2009

God is just a word

Aha, that must be the difference.

I took the whole package: not God as a word but the words of God.

I remember when I became a BK in the Sakar Murli's it was said that we were free to look around if we could find any store where we they sell a better idea of who God really is. I cannot quote the exact words (but anyway, who knows what they really were), but it was something like "Now you know who God is, how you can have a relationship with him, why he came and for what purpose."

At that time, this made really sense for me. I like shopping but so far haven't found a shop where they are selling something which I can see as the truth or the one and only real God. Not that I am desperately looking for that.
In the meantime Baba became in their Murli's often the punisher. (Feeling like Falling from high buildings or never reach the Golden Age). Now you had to get rid of that image.

This is remarkable, I cannot remember very clear he presented himself as the Punisher (did I close my ears at that time?). I remember he was the Destroyer of impurity. How I understood things it was my own karma or impurity or drama which caused pain, depression, sadness, feelings of loneliness and so on. As soon as you lived according to Shrimat, everything was supposed to be fine.

Together with the image of the Destroyer, the image of the ocean of peace, love and happiness disappeared. Because it came all in one package.

Probably this is why I am having a hard time accepting a whole new idea or concept of God.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. It's very interesting and good to read!
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alladin

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Re: Your God or mine?

Post04 Jul 2009

Hi to all and welcome to new members. I am quoting ex-l here
ex-l wrote:it sounds like you might still be psychically hooked up to the "god of the BKs" ... Sometimes the mental conditioning, the pull, psychic connection or magnetism, is still strong and I think many ex-BKs have a hard time dealing with and pulling away ... or facing any type of religious idea ... if individuals such as yourself have by-passed the BK God and made their way back to "the Godhead" ... or whether they are still hooked up to the BK god but in an unbranded manner.

and would like to ask him to expand a bit on this concept of being psychically hooked by a spook, or even other persons, or to refer me to any old post where I can read more about this interesting open topic.

It is very true that, because of BK creed and system being a "package" as Lokila aptly defined it, it becomes difficult for members and ex-es, to sift out truth, or to build or rebuild a relationship with God once they felt deceived by the BKWSO.

The BKs talk about defamation especially when members leave the organization and become critical. In my books, the reputation of the group is impaired by the bad behaviours of members and especially leaders, of the inconsistency between what they preach and do. Nothing new, it happens in all religions.

Also the "yuktis" of instilling fear and the rest, of future punishment, guilt, repentance, are very stale and unfortunately they do work. Especially on people that lack self esteem, assertiveness and want to please others or be accepted/loved by a group ... or God himself.

About the prohibition to think:

Dogmas are also the core of religions,and even though the BKs claim that this is not a path where blind faith is required, they do crush people with an inquisitive intellect in many ways, mainly shaming them by labelling, what IMHO is a healthy attitude and a right of any living creature as "criticism" and "manmat".

These are conjurers' type of tricks, hypnotism, repeating something over and over again until the listener's will power is put to sleep and is at the mercy of his puppeteer.

And another trick is ""diversion". Don't you dare looking at the heaps of dirty laundry in this "spiritual family".

Let's instead point the finger somewhere else:

Gurus, the vision of a punishing God, selling spirituality for money, are all sins visible in other religions and groups, but we are totally different and clean!!!
ex-l wrote:I suspect most folks here are "once bitten, twice shy"

Unfortunately, not all those who get burnt once become careful fast, next time! Sometimes it takes decades to wake up and heal, and many ex-cult members do not recover at all. There are many factors involved, slowing down the exiting or even just developing a more independent stance and approach.

One could be the brainwashing and the difficulty in de-programming and finding oneself again and reinventing the self and one's one life after a cult experience. Another one is the variety of anesthetics one gets when BKs. Initial "honeymoon" period experiences, praise from teachers, being given titles, a role or a badge, and many more, if we want to compile a list! BKWSO is a rat that blows and then bites ;)!

About opening the arms, in this case, to a sect or a ghost channeled through a medium:

Translating it into a more "worldly" situation, I cannot forget the words of a Buddhist friend of mine who tried to explain to me the difference between opening the heart in relationships, and making our heart available for others to cut it into pieces.

One good thing I learned in Gyan is that a virtue, if misused or abused, becomes a defect. So, good faith, openness, being giving and helpful, need much wisdom to be used in a balanced way. Or else they turn into something harmful for ourselves and others. Innocence is a deity quality, naivety taken to the extreme is not just foolishness, but being out of touch from the self and reality.
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