Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years ago

Scientific challenges to the beliefs promoted by the Brahma Kumaris so called "World Spiritual University"
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Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years ago

Post19 Oct 2014

According to the Brahma Kumari "elite" of the so called Godly World Spiritual University, time is only 5,000 years old and for the first 2,500 years reproduction happened by the power of the mind.

Meanwhile, archeologists find evidence of the earliest act of copulation (380m years ago), so far ...

"Impossible!", cry the BKs. "All carbon dating is false due to the destruction of nuclear power stations 2,500 years ago". "It must have happened after than, after Lekhraj Kirpalani led the world into lust as the first man (... presumably having the first boner)".

Yes, this is really what the BKs teach and speculate upon, although they usually don't go into specific detail, just claim their founder what the one who caused 'The Fall' and became 'the most impure' at the end of The Cycle.

Meanwhile, bugs, insects, micro-organisms don't even seem to fit within their version of evolution. Were the Golden Ages really able to procreate by the power of their minds and not "cumbersome sexual organs"? Or did they only grow them after The Fall, 2,500 years ago, genes contaminated by radioactive waste!?! Is the same true of human beings too!?! Don't bother asking your Brahma Kumari center-in-charge ... they don't know either!
The first act of copulation has been traced back to ancient animals that were endowed with such cumbersome sexual organs they had to mate side by side.

Fossilised features of antiarch fish suggest that early intercourse was not the smoothest of affairs, with males faced with the task of steering their bony L-shaped organs between twin genital plates that adorned the females like tiny cheese graters.

The male’s organ was nearly as long as his body and fixed rigid, leading paleontologists to finally work out that the creature’s small, jointed arm-like appendages were probably of help in achieving the correct position.“Fundamentally, they could not have done it in the missionary position,” said John Long, professor of palaeontology at Flinders University in Adelaide. “The very first act of copulation was done sideways, square-dance style.”

Antiarchs are primitive forms of jawed fish called placoderms that lived in lakes more than 380m years ago. They are known from fossils, only a few centimetres long, dug up in China, Estonia and Orkney in Scotland.

Like so many in science, the latest discovery came about by chance. Last year, Long was working in a palaeontologist’s laboratory in Tallinn, Estonia, when he was handed a box of placoderm bones. Among them he found a plate with a strange, grooved bone attached. He had studied placoderms all his life but was at a loss to explain what it was. Later that day, the penny dropped: “It was a clasper, a sex organ, and it was the oldest and the most primitive one yet found on the planet,” he said.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post20 Oct 2014

Yes, I heard this report on a radio science program yesterday. The place the fossils were found is appropriately named ...”Go Go”!!!

And for its size, that ancient fossil had a colossal tossil.

”Carry On ...” jokes aside - the paleontologist John Long (!) said on the radio that what was first noticed was the female specimen had a womb (which is what separates 'womb men" from ”men”), and from that they looked further into the other specimens.

The evolution of sex, i.e. the evolution of male and female or the bifurcation within a species for reproduction, then the development of internal wombs were characteristic of more complex creatures because that allowed fewer eggs to need to be created and spread (like fish do) so they, and any that were subsequently fertilised or resulted in actual progeny, were left prone to predators. Any offspring that had the opportunity to develop for a time inside a womb emerge more developed than those that are left to grow externally in an egg, giving a greater chance of survival.

Hence, such species produce fewer eggs and fewer offspring.

We see the same dynamic ”culturally” in human society where a better environment for child-rearing provided by affluence leads to fewer children being born, and those that are live healthier & longer lives ...

The ”sideways" coupling mentioned is not so strange. Many sea dwelling mammals, whales, dolphins etc have been seen mating in unusual relationship to each other.

The idea that procreation in the "Golden Age” does not require sexual intercourse really means that in the ”Golden Age” there is no actual need of the separate sexes of man and womb-man.

There is also the anomaly in the BKs where we’ve had senior teachers, most notably (n.b. BKs reading) Dadi Gulzar, say that procreation is always through sexual union and that the whole idea of it being by ”Yoga power” is misunderstood.

This whole idea of celibacy being virtuous in itself is part of the human tendency to cut off our own nose to spite our face. Is it a kind of ”suicide” that’s not owned but projected onto the next (non-)generation?

So, what are the oldest life forms ever found? They are 3.94 Billion year old, only one billion years younger than the planet itself

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/planets-oldest-fossils-found-in-pilbara-experts-say-20130101-2c3qs.html
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post20 Oct 2014

According to the Brahma Kumari "elite" of the so called Godly World Spiritual University, time is only 5,000 years old ...

This is first time I am hearing this claim of BKWSU. Now, they have changes their stand & say that this BK time cycle is of 5000 years & such cycles move on till eternity.
"Impossible!", cry the BKs. "All carbon dating is false due to the destruction of nuclear power stations 2,500 years ago".

True, and they still carry on this view. If you challenge them to prove their claim right, they rather challenge you to prove the scientific discoveries. Like in this case, they may ask rationalists to prove that it happened exactly 380m years ago & not befor 381 or 379m yrs.
Meanwhile, bugs, insects, micro-organisms don't even seem to fit within their version of evolution.

So here comes another contradiction of BKism with Hinduism philosophy. While Puranas & other literature include al living beings right from one-sensed to multiple sensed organisms in the evolution theory of a soul, BKism still sticks to its old base. I heard that they have modified this theory too. Earlier BKs believed that soul exists only in human being but now few have started believing that it is very much present in animals. But they are still clueless about microrganisms & plants. And they say "Everything has been said".

About the world & its culture, Indian literature describe that all vices & virtues have always been there including anger, pride, greed, sexuality, attachment, hatred, etc etc & there is no mention of such era which is free from these things. Only the perception towards vices & virtues changes during Satyug with each & every aspect viewed from its own significance & advantages. BTW, Brahma Kumaris are also born through same medium that they criticize now. That means they criticize the actions of their own parents indirectly. And it can beone reason why they hate family structure or a religion which boost family system.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post20 Oct 2014

I think the rule of celibacy is multi faceted. From my understanding, 'sex in the copper and iron age is lust and therefore impure' ... a vice ... but 'sex in the golden and Silver Age is not based on lust, there for pure'. And children born of lust are vicious and vicefull, (scorpions & snakes), So BKism don't want any of those 'little critters' running around. More like, what i posted in the 'abortion by BK Seniors', don't want BK's breeding any more 'mouths to feed', time spent on raising family, instead of service etc.

The biggest jackpot of all Is $$$ ... childless people can give more of everything to yuga, including final 'Will', especially if there are no children to feel 'obligated' to pass onto. Also to disempower individuals with no backing or 'strength in numbers' of one's own family situation. Single alone individuals are more vulnerable, and easier to control and brainwash that the BK family is their 'real & divine' family ...

I think not!! ... when you are down or sick or any troubles, you are looked down upon as having 'Maya' and left cold!! ... A cold fortress appears from all fronts, as if on 'auto cue' ... no one wants to 'catch Maya' off you, so the pale stoney cold distant looks do the job for them. Then your aloneness and loneliness in a crowd of 'God's divine family' is all there is left of your life ... literally dying whilst living!! ... "The Divine Most Shocking" ... it is nothing less than a glamourized concentration camp!!

You are haunted, frozen, numb, frightened, quietly screaming inside your perfectly wraped whites ... the roaring silence and deafening realization that you are in hell!! ... "oh, your 83rd birth is your worst one" ... and then you come to Baba ... No, I don't think so, this BK life has become my worst one right now! ... Such is the nature of ''CULTISM''!!! ... MOST EVIL ... IN GOD'S NAME.

In the "Hare Krishna Movement", sex and breeding was allowed within rules. I am not sure if they had to be married to be classed as a couple, but from my understanding from many years ago, a couple could only have sex once a month, and only for the purpose of breeding, during female ovulation ... when the eggs were 'good to go'. I did spend some time with them and there were no shortage of little "Krishna critters" running around dressed up like Krishna and gopis.

Those kids always looked very pale and underfed and 'cult-like' ... I did not see any "blue baby Krishna's" ... no doubt those babies were all rushed to hospital to get urgent oxygen for their condition!! ... hah.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

Save Innocents wrote:This is first time I am hearing this claim of BKWSU. Now, they have changes their stand & say that this BK time cycle is of 5000 years & such cycles move on till eternity.

No, you are correct. They have said for a long time that time is eternity ... but an eternity of the one and the same 5,000 years.

Ridiculous when you think about it.

Whether time rewinds to where it was 5,000 years ago, or progresses on to repeat exactly the same set of predetermined actions, it does not really matter. It ends up, from the human perspective as just being one 5,000 years Cycle.

Obviously, this is without any possible scientific theory or explanation. It's just a defining article of faith for the BKs. Something you must accept without question to be accepted. A belief that evolved out of Lekhraj Kirpalani limited understanding of Hinduism and extreme narcissism (because in it he was number one ... again, and again and again).

Accurately identical right down not just to the molecule but even photos and whatever sub-particles or states which exist.

I think this repetitive "accuracy" was also part of his psychology and something that was probably key to his professional success ... but probably a kind of OCD (an autistic style - obsessive compulsive disorder).

The BKs are protective about Lekhraj Kirpalani but if you talk to older non-BK people who knew him they note several strange habits he had.
quantum wrote:From my understanding, 'sex in the copper and iron age is lust and therefore impure' ... a vice ... but 'sex in the golden and Silver Age is not based on lust, there for pure'.

"Your understanding" or what you were told/taught in the BKWSU?

It was *never* taught or suggested at any time during my spell with the Brahma Kumaris that there was any sex in the Golden or Silver Age. That was unthinkable. Nor was it in the Murlis.

There were, in the Murli, the even more ridiculous suggestion that procreation happen like swans through tears!!!

This is based on a traditional myth that swans were so pure they did not copulate either but instead transmitted sperm via their tears ... when they courted, they appeared to cry and wrap their neck around each others.

But that was only ever a myth too, something told to children to keep them innocent which, I guess, Lekhraj Kirpalani in his own personal bubble with the aging/declining Om Mandli community was also do. An answer to plug thoughts in the minds of her adherents and keep them focused on him, or his vision or his god spirit.

I think it's important to recognise that even as BKs the philosophy failed us and, in essence, we did not really believe it. We were playing acting like kids to please the Seniors, to fit in and be accepted. Everyone was play acting, and there was no greater play acting than when the Seniors were around. Play acting at being holy or enlightened, chosen religious beings, or whatever kick we were getting off on at the time.

The BK Knowledge is not knowledge, it is irrational, unrealistic, impossible mental plugs to stop us thinking or questioning, especially thinking and questioning in a way which would challenge the very limited authority - and knowledge - of the Seniors.

In a way, it's amazing that they got away with it for the whole of their lives, roping in the cash, living in comforted, believing in nonsense ... unchallenged.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

Save Innocents wrote:If you challenge them to prove their claim right, they rather challenge you to prove the scientific discoveries. Like in this case, they may ask rationalists to prove that it happened exactly 380m years ago & not befor 381 or 379m yrs.

And how would they even know if you had "proved" it or not? The majority of them have absolutely no scientific education and no understanding of scientific method ... bearing in mind that "science" means "knowledge".

Their supporting literature, such as "World Renewal" magazine, is or was always full of "disproofs", cultist insults of science really, half a dozen or so 'anomalies' that real science (knowledge) were perfectly aware of and had moved on since developing their systems to make them more accurately. Notably they do not just use one form of dating before they make a statement, they use various methods based on a back catalogue of a large amount of evidence.

How many papers has the "Godly" university published on their theories, or disproofs? Zero.

They target mainly uneducated vulnerable individuals, perhaps who don't want to know, for whom the world is too much, too big, requires too much hard, work - irrelevant to their lives - to understand, e.g. dreamers and people who need a break from the real world for a (non-copulating) while.

And, yes, I agree with your control theory, Quantum.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

it's hard to quantify in exact terms, as it was always an "Aloof" subject!! As if, "don't go too far into the bedroom", even if it is "pure"?? ... Of course they will have to have sex in order to reproduce ... but the souls will be purified of lust and vices and in a state of pure love, bliss, joy etc similar to "Tantric Sex" ... where it is meant to be a spiritual union through sex, and vice versa ... there are many spiritually awakened and pure in degrees people now, of course, who are conscious and aware of "Sacred Sex" ... and practice it in that manner and intent and energy. It's not all lust for everyone depending on your evolution and conscious awareness of your self as an originally pure and divine being.

The 5,000 year cycle is a mythological fairy tale that lekraj digged up to fit into his very limited idea of evolution. It merely serves to shut down, and dumb down, anyone from thinking outside the confined quarters of this ****, and to believe that you must, "get it right now in the Confluence Age as you know Baba, and what happens now determines your ever destiny eternally speaking", (which is only 5000 years) and repeats continually, and you are stuck with your bloom'n lot forever!!). That is for maximum fear and control to follow and strive for this ridiculous theory.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

You write almost as if you still believe there is a Gold and Silver Age. You say, "of course" but that was *never* part of the BK world I knew.

Procreation was by the power of mind alone.

I understand what you are saying regarding the concept of Tantric Sex and how that might apply within BKism as a kind of explanation ... but, again, it is one of those self-invented or shared inventions that BKs make to modify The Knowledge for themselves, in order for them to remain even when they don't believe.

I think we should highlight how BKs do that, e.g. another typical "Brother's Maya" were BKs theorising that Time was actual linear ... that there was a prehistorical time with evolution, dinosaurs etc ... and that the BKs just kind of do a short circular loop on top of that straight line. And that it is not a good thing as it perpetuates adhering to BKism and the Kirpalani Klan elite, beyond the point where, actually, you have outgrown and seen through them and their limitations.

It was a tendency we had to try and make The Knowledge fit with what we already knew ... but which were never endorsed by the Elite. Stuff which they, the original Om Mandlites, or "Original Jewels" had no clue of and about, and so did not have a problem with.

I think the elite and the BK middle management have a tendency to allow BKs a small degree of latitude as long as it does not lead to serious questioning or challenging of the pillars of their faith, and as long as said BKs conform to the rest of the lifestyle and provide free services and donations.

For example, does the Godly University allow and publish such "free thinking"? Is there even an independent "Students Union" and magazine?

Not allowed ...
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

OK, apologies ex-l for giving wrong impression by the way I described. Will clarify here. These are just my own personal ideas/possibilities/ etc about procreation in the Golden & Silver Age, even though I do not believe in these ages according to BKism and The Cycle of Time.

No, it was not said in Murli or any class etc like this. It's been literally decades since I have had to even think of this stupid stuff again, so I am forgetful of some points. Yes, I did forget about procreation being through power of the mind alone!?? ... Or swans tears?? ... OMG ... they will say anything to avoid mentioning "Physical Love" ... as part of 'complete' relationship....avoiding the body and it's purpose even when purified!?

Well, again, all these "hang ups" about sex comes from Indian culture. It is there & taboo in lokik life also, which has only served to "double screw up" Westerners. This is not our ****! It's these dumbos' and projected strongly onto us as if it's real.

It's all fairyland **** and mythology. I cannot even go any more into this dumb **** it's so dumb. All fear based to control, in other words. Retards.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

Mr Green wrote:In the "Hare Krishna Movement", sex and breeding was allowed within rules. I am not sure if they had to be married to be classed as a couple, but from my understanding from many years ago, a couple could only have sex once a month, and only for the purpose of breeding, during female ovulation ... when the eggs were 'good to go'. I did spend some time with them and there were no shortage of little "Krishna critters" running around dressed up like Krishna and gopis.

Those kids always looked very pale and underfed and 'cult-like' ... I did not see any "blue baby Krishna's" ... no doubt those babies were all rushed to hospital to get urgent oxygen for their condition!! ... hah.


I did not post this!
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

quantum wrote:Well, again, all this "Hang ups" about sex comes from Indian culture. it is there & taboo in lokik life also.

Actually, it comes from BK culture which is yet not a part of overall Indian culture & there is least possibility for one. Indian culture 'was' (yes, it hardly seems now) more about love & humility like any other culture. Now you will get all types of people in any culture & I think it's the people who portray culture through their conduct rather than a literature or its history.

What I feel about sex is that it should be in controlled way or it turns out to be unhealthy. Too much of anything is sometime not beneficial. And if someone is practicing Yoga, then it should be done after considering the considerable losses that sex can cause & definitely after consulting the Yoga master, not the fake one. This 'loss' is about the stability of mind, body & immunity attained through Yoga & if self realization has been attained, then 'need' for sex will automatically vanish within few years. Celibacy must never be the forced one. And as far as I know, BKism preaches forced celibacy which is very unhealthy. It can cause more disturbance than the one having it in controlled way. And BKism definitely does not give its followers any sort of self realization but few beliefs which have no sound base.
From my understanding, 'sex in the copper and iron age is lust and therefore impure'

Though I cannot see what happen in those ages, yet I can say you are right. Even from spiritual point of view, it is said sex is not a hindrance but lust is. Sex is the unfolding of karmas while lust is binding of more karmas for sex. What has been attached to soul will leave only by giving effects (like sex or anger) & cannot be stopped but the lust & abhorrence is new cause for sex & anger resp., in future lives. That still does not mean to have sex or anger freely as it is a violent activity & kills millions living beings within which we cannot see with naked eyes.

This particular evidence that dates back 380m years seems to be oldest among all but it should not be a surprise (not talking about BK belief). It has always been there. A new life on Earth is always through sex. It may be asexual too. But for humans, sex has been the chosen way. And there had never been any heaven life or Golden Age on Earth for BKs or anyone else. So, it's time to accept who we were/are rather than relying on an unidentified/unseen mystery or something that is not even recorded by most ancient literature on Earth.

How BKs see all these ancient evidence & findings of scientists, archaeologists, etc etc? Are they a bit rational about it "now"?
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post21 Oct 2014

quantum wrote:Well, again, all these "hang ups" about sex comes from Indian culture. It is there & taboo in lokik life also, which has only served to "double screw up" Westerners. This is not our ****! It's these dumbos' and projected strongly onto us as if it's real.

I am afraid that, with relation to the Brahma Kumaris, I agree with Quantum on this, Save Innocents.

India has/had it's own set of out of date sexual hangups, issues and hypocrisies - including even just talking about it - and the BKs dragged us back in time into their time warp about it.

The West went a long way in exploring and developing notions of romantic love, sexual liberation, education and, especially, female emancipation that much of India is still not ready for today.

I've know of India women who did not even know the word for their own vagina because it was never spoken about, and also women who have derived absolutely no sexual pleasure even from their arranged husband. And, of course, pleasuring themselves (masturbation) is a total taboo.

The only thing I would say in India's defence is that *some* of the sexual complications it has were imported and instilled by the Victorian British rulers, and not native.

Imagine an India were women are allowed to control their own sexuality and chose their own lovers freely and not be beaten or murdered for doing so.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post22 Oct 2014

The Muslim invaders brought sexual prudery and extra patriarchal dominant culture before the British & other Europeans.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post22 Oct 2014

Yes, Mr. Green, the paragraph about the "Hare Krishna Movement" was not written by you but myself, Quantum.

Not sure how that mistake happened. Apologies.
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Re: Archeologists Find Earliest act of Copulation 380m years

Post22 Oct 2014

quantum wrote:Not sure how that mistake happened. Apologies.

Would people stay "On Topic" ... and get back to copulating, please?

So, do those who believe there is copulation in the Golden and Silver Age believe Lakshmi and Narayan get "jiggy" with each other and break a sweat, or do so standing side by side like they are seen in the BKWSU's pictures, and share by these prehistoric creatures.



Previously unbeknown to us all ... is this indeed a picture of Lakshmi and Narayan "doing it 'side by side'"?

Image

(I think there is a glitch in the software, Save Innocents reported a similar thing a short while ago and others the forum working slowly, something I have seen myself. Perhaps we are outgrowing our current hosting).
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