Who created Shiv Baba

Scientific challenges to the beliefs promoted by the Brahma Kumaris so called "World Spiritual University"
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anilkrmv

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post24 Feb 2016

Omkar Pandirkar wrote:Thanks for your answer, it was quite satisfactory. But as you said, the Golden Age is supposed to start in 2036 again. Is it their thought or just a prediction?

Cause I had listened to a Murli in a centre near me that Destruction is ready to go, but this is just a revision period given by Baba for us.


BK guys all got it wrong. The Kali yuga was ended 300 years ago, currently we are in ascending dwapar yuga, Satyug will take another 6000 years to come.

So, how the yugas are divided. Krita (Satya) 4,800 years, Treta-3,600 years, Dwapar-2,400 years, Kali-1,200 Years, (which is 4:3:2:1) total 12,000 years (half cycle), the full cycle is 24000 years, the time take by the solar system to revolve round its parent sun. The modern calculation is around 25,900 years.
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ex-l

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post24 Feb 2016

It's another one of those unknowable, unprovable and, hence, pretty pointless arguments, however, in a way it relates to the Brahma Kumaris molecularly identical and eternally repeating 5,000 year Cycle theory.

How can it be so perfectly identical when the Sun takes about 240 million years to orbit around the galaxy itself? Do they believe the entire galaxy some how magically rewinds to the position it was in 5,000 years ago?

I suppose if one could be bothered, one could actually estimate a rough idea of how much physical energy that would require (based on known masses, speeds, gravitational pulls etc) ... have the BK 'so called' University come up with a solid explanation of how it will happen yet?

We've often discussed the impossibility of the BKs' theory. For example, how it would require light from distant stars to travel backwards in space and time, and every molecule to return to its original position again (... even those elements humans have dug out deep in the earth to build space ships, and then shot far out into space to orbit Saturn, Jupiter and Pluto).

The scale of the impossibility is unimaginably large.

In reality, the solar system will never simultaneously repeat their positions from some time long ago because the movements of the planets are not perfectly predictable.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post25 Feb 2016

Then of course every BK and his Dog-goD might start chiming in with their own theories about how it all might happen, eg the universe goes on but souls jump back in time etc etc. A Theosophist (who believes in the Vedic time cycle) said that the BK cycle may be true for BKs, a short cycle within a larger one.

Or, as one another theosophist, a woman who liked the ancient idea of the earth resting on an elephant standing on a tortoise notoriously once said to, I think, Bertrand Russell when he critiqued ”But what does the tortoise stand on” - replied, "it’s tortoises all the way down!"

Unfortunately, the Gyan is as per the teachings of their Baba and only the Seniors’ interpretations have any officlal sanction.

Any such speculations as to how it is true may be allowed to be entertained to keep people occupied and not looking at how it could not be true - but it will never be officially sanctioned, neither researched or explored (as a proper university might do).

The Seniors are probably right in their attitude. Why mix up a simple, straightforward nonsense that is believed on the basis of trust in ”who says it” (appeal to authority) with a more complicated nonsense theory that is risking being discredited with an approach that requires logic, evidence and proof?
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ex-l

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post25 Feb 2016

That great piece of business advice ... KISS ... Keep It Simple Stupid.

Or as Dadi Janki used to say, "Don't think ... don't question". Nothing is rewarded more than an unquestioning adoption of dogma and conformity to the established order.

You can see it from their point of view. They are like the old Father in the family business, "Look, it brings the money in ... it works whether it is right or wrong ... why change the formula?".
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post26 Feb 2016

And with all that, it can bring us back to topic ”Who created Shiv Baba?”

There’s the saying ”Necessity is the mother of invention” . Apparently Mama played a big role in the invention that it was now Shiva speaking and it was never Lekhraj/Brahma revealing knowledge, except the bits that were wrong. So she was "the mother of the invention", the ‘necessity' arising from the errors and the (probably mainly psycho-emotionally based) need to sustain belief through some kind of rational plausibility.

And a livelihood for them all if they were to go out proselytising and gainign converts with donations. God Shiva has more market cache than a parochial sindhi clan god-man. Given that Prajapati God Brahma got it wrong, his authority was definitely questionable, his errors all became part of of "a bigger plan” (the plan that suddenly exists when you don’t have a clue why things aren’t happening the way you expected them to).

There needed to be a new rationalisation, to show how it all could have happened or (in the case of WW2 then partition not bringing Vinash) how it didn;t happen. A new back story was needed. And to grow the audience, a new character was needed in the Drama/soap opera, a huge new big name celebrity, and who better than the ‘Parampita Paramatma” himself - Shiva !!! You may remember him from such hits as ”The Shiva Purana”, ”The Trimurti” (released in the West as ”The Three Amigos”), and the family sit-com ”Shaiva Agamas”.

Lekhraj’s role in the new series was to now play the dummy who’s mouth moves but it’s someone else speaking. There can be a new title to go along with Prajapita Brahma, God’s Chariot. He can now be called ”The Reverse Ventriloquist”!!

So with the instigator now supposedly an incorporeal, invisible mysterious being who can’t be pinned down, any statement, no matter how strange, carries the ”appeal to authority” for believers and any that are proven wrong or fail to eventuate can be rationalised away because they are beyond the ken of mere mortals.
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ex-l

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post26 Feb 2016

It still fascinates me a little ... but, overall, the audacity and conceitedness of it all disgusts me far more.

We have documents up until 1955 where there was no God Shiva. They still hailed Prajapati God Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani) as the seed of humanity and shared the idea of the infinite Brahm as the ultimate state.

So how and when was the decision made and then propagated amongst the BK community which was already spreading outside of Mount Abu by that time.

There were many still living BKs around at that time ... I could ask, "why won't they just say?" but I realises that there's little to no point as even if you got them to be honest ... they'd come out with a fudged, sugary sweet version.

But, oh bacche, "Lekhraj was not wrong ... he was just testing the children for their faithfulness!!!".

Problem solved (... in their minds).

Given the BKs' habit of borrowing other people's and religions' terminology and giving it a twist, one question to ask is what did they mean by "Shiva" in the first place? Clearly it's no Shiva as understood by Hindus, so was it just used as a title in the first place, e.g. "The Auspicious One" ... Mahadeva or "Great God" ... the god of yogis, as Piyu (The Beloved) was in earlier days, and then concretised over a period of time?

You can imagine someone like Om Radhe, who was responsibility for keeping the whole thing running, going, "ah, that's a good idea ... a new spin, some divine magical revelation, to keep everyone excited.

It's a wonder that none of the announcement letters or "Divine Decrees" announcing the new revelation don't exist.

That alone raises suspicions that at another point word went out to "burn/hide the past".

Janki must know ... and yet no one will ask her or she will not answer.

Honestly, the leaders are all garbage and the follower pathetic to let them get away with it all.
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post10 Mar 2017

Well, I did not read all the post under this topic but a few from the beginning.

If God created universe then who created God is an interesting question and puts an end to the concept of a personal God. Now, one way of looking at it is that "God is an Energy", and from the first law of Thermodynamics we know that "Energy can neither be created or destroyed, it transforms from one form to another". Based on this one can say that God is an energy you know. But "why is that energy not in flow?" is another question to ask here and this is in connection with the second part of that law" ... "it transforms from one form to another". Therefore, it is clear that God is not a stagnant energy residing in paramdha (Supreme abode).

Hindus believe that God is everywhere. This belief is rejected by BKs, simply because they believe that there is a Devil within us. Not God. But are they AWARE that this Devil within us carries a God with himself and is totally UNAWARE of it, hence the search of a personal God. One has to access that devil completely and full in order to access that hidden God within us, once you access that Godliness within you, everything residing in the outside world becomes divine for you, even a prostitute will be a divine thing for you, because to see the divinity in everything you have to be divine from within.

One has to personally explore and experiment with everything. We can not simply trust beliefs given by someone who says "God says so!" simply because those beliefs are not giving us what we want to bring on earth, the true transformation of equality and TRUTH.
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post10 Mar 2017

In logic, or English, we'd call it "circular reasoning".

The worst or most basic form of circular reasoning.

"Shiv Baba is God because Shiv Baba says he is God", or

"Everything Shiv Baba says is true because he says he is the Ocean of Truth" (even when he's proven to be utterly wrong later).

They say their god charges up and empowered depleted human souls at the end of their cycle.

I asked Janki "how" once. I asked her what the mechanics of were, how it worked.

She could not answer and just attacked and tried to embarrass me in front of the class ... and she is supposed to be amongst the top, most spiritual 8 souls in the world.

What a joke. It's all just blind faith. If you are happy with blind faith, then fine ... but don't pretend it is "knowledge" or a, big joke, "new model of education" as they call it now!

Of course, if it was true that "energy flowed from Shiv Baba to human souls" (which, indeed, it may or may not do) ... one would then have to ask the question, where does Shiv Baba recharge his energy from?

It's the old, "if god is the creator, who created him from what question?".

I don't know very much of the Vedas etc. I have forgotten most of what I did ... but I would give them some respect them for - at the core - actually having some fundemental understandings of the universe and there being good scientific, mathematic and, especially, astronomical traditions with the tradition.

BKism is, for me, based not on 'knowledge' but 'expedience' ... that is to say, what is useful to them or what works to achieve their goals ... and to that end, I think they have borrowed their god and End of the World concepts from the Abrahamic traditions (Islam and Christianity).

Although they flirt with the idea of Lekhraj Kirpalani being Krishna, it is not in the same was as Vaishnavites ... it is merely to appeal to Vaishnavites in order to hook them and exploit them.

Ditto, they did not adopt Shiva until after 1955/56. There was no Shiva during the Om Mandli period despite all their lies about it since.

I suggest that the easiest way of understanding that is that they took the name in precisely they same way as they did Krishna and Vishnu ... to appeal to the Shaivites too, to incorporate the last major deity in Hinduism as theirs.

No BK has ever come up with what really happened and why so far.
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Mar 2017

Hmm well, out of all other threads, this was the most interesting topic, but I would like to add something more important to this topic which I came to know from a Buddist monk!

What he suggested and said was, there are a few "Beings of light" who can contact a human on earth who is trying to escape from The Cycle of birth and death. But those beings of light are not the universal God, they help those humans to understand a lot of things, "Shiv Baba" is just one of them. May be that "Being of light" might have told Brahma Baba that you are suppose to create some interesting knowledge based on Bhagwat Gita, alter it a bit, and he did exactly that.

Well, who was that "Being of light" I don't know! But it seemed quite truthful to me.
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Mar 2017

If the BKs could accept that, that their god was just, in fact, a being from another dimension "one level up" and give up all their Judeo-Christian exceptionalism, then I think I could accept them.

However, that or those beings would still not be fully enlightened though.

The big question would be, are they "higher beings" come to lead or are they "lower beings" come to mislead and distract.

Were all the mistakes and confusions their fault and intentions, or Lekhraj Kirpalani's vanity and stupidity?

The BKs never stop to consider that Lekhraj Kirpalani could have been vain ... a sort of naive, egotistical narcissist. But, honestly, what sort of person would believe that they are god for 20 years (actually, in the early period they claimed "higher than god"), believe that they are Krishna and Vishnu and not start to review their words and actions after their predictions of the End of the World failed.

Really honestly, when you read the idiocy of the words they sent to the King and Princess (now Queen) of England and all their world's leaders and when you read of how proud and important they felt *just* because they had written a letter or sent a book or picture to them, what level of mentality does it suggest to you?

I am sorry but they were just not stupid and ignorant but full of their own pride and ego too. I wonder if they ever felt any humility and embarrassment for it during their "hide away" period in Mount Abu while they reinvented themselves and buried their failed past?

I know I felt humility and embarrassment for the stupidities, and probably hurts and pains I caused during my short BK career.

How do they feel about the lives they spoilt and wasted? Or are they still protected by their conceited egos?

Which leads us to the next questions ... why would a "being of light" being attracted to such characters? If it was a divine, benign being ... would it not be attracted to sensible, humble, sincere individuals? Would not it be logical to suggest it was attracted by wordly wealth and power too?

If we consider for a moment that it or they might not be higher beings ... then could not we say that it came to Lekhraj Kirpalani to destroy his life and fmaily, waste his wealth, and use him to mislead and manipulate others?

Did, for example, Lekhraj Kirpalani reach a certain spiritual, psychic, or even just human level of competance ... and then *fail* the next test by being fooled by a trickster god, who is still tricking people, has taught the old BKs to become tricksters and attracted tricksters to them?

"Birds of a feather flock together".
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post17 Mar 2017

Dear ex-I,

In my journey of dissolving my ego, I have understood that whether BKs agree or disgree with something is actually not of much importance. The important thing is to consider whether "I can make myself reach there where I want to!". There are many many organisations and small satsangs in India who have crazy beliefs involving a lot of superstition.

Actually, there is a need of a person like Gautama the Buddha, not for stopping BKism, but for awakening humanity to a valid prospective. Few of my views about your questions:
However, that or those beings would still not be fully enlightened though.

My views: Yes, those beings exist in a separate realm but are not beyond duality (in your words, not fully enlightened), in Buddhism, they believe that there are 31 plains in existence, Buddha had witnessed all of them.

Please note that when you refer to something as "Lower" or "Higher", again you are acting as a BK here, remember my thread "Comparative mind of BKs". Those beings are met simply on a journey of enlightenment, but they just show a way, nothing else, however, there is a possibility of Lekhraj Kriplani being defeated by his own Ego. Our ego gives false visualizations to us, like when a person has actually reached to the state of full enlightenment, the ego will start giving you false visualizations like you have become that now, stop, but you have to let go of it and not come under its influence, but may be Bramha Baba came under influence of his own ego, and ended up declaring that he is the soul of Vishnu or Krishna.

Reaching to a state where you don't exist at all but you still can feel existence's nature of being there is what I understand as egolessness. Well, hope that Buddha will be awakened soon who will awaken the humanity once more like Buddha did 2500 years ago ... :).
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post17 Mar 2017

awareness_being wrote:Please note that when you refer to something as "Lower" or "Higher", again you are acting as a BK here, remember my thread "Comparative mind of BKs".

Hmmn, not just BKs ... it's a common concept even in some Buddhisms, e.g. with Heavenly and Hell regions.

When we read the letters Lekhraj Kirpalani sent - or allowed to be sent in Om Radhe's name - to the Queen of England, the Viceroy, Gandhi etc, the nature of them and the nature of their boast of how important he was *just* because he had sent a letter or a book to some rich, powerful and famous person ... and the nature of their pride struck insulting responses when they were ignored ... I think it's easy for us to accept the "ego" equation!

Royalty and politicians ... or at least their secretaries ... are used to receiving long or crazy letters from crazy people and that was what he was at that time.

"Look at me, I am God Brahma, I have sent a letter to the Queen of England telling her to come and meet me to gain enlightenment, how important I am!!! "

Really? If he was not so rich, he probably would have been locked up in a hospital.

And the BKs are still chasing Royalty and VIPs telling them to come and meet their Dadis in order to gain enlightenment ... they've just polished their act and developed - at great expense - better, more subtle strategies.

All the efforts of their big public events and foundations are really only about creating a stage to invite one or two IPs of VIPs because largely it is only BKs who attend.
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post18 Mar 2017

awareness_being wrote:Please note that when you refer to something as "Lower" or "Higher", again you are acting as a BK here, remember my thread "Comparative mind of BKs".
ex-l wrote:Hmmn, not just BKs ... it's a common concept even in some Buddhisms, e.g. with Heavenly and Hell regions.

Have to be careful in comparing apples and oranges. Much of Buddhist language is self-decribed as ”sandhya bahasa” - which translates as "twilight language”, meaning you need to read the lines - which may seem contradictory - but be able to read between the lines and the subtler implications to get the meaning which, given the subject matter, is difficult to put in words.

Have to find it but there is a quote in Buddhist text somewhere (maybe the "Diamond Cutter of Perfect Wisdom” sutta - Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra - which is, BTW, the oldest verifiable printed book that is complete, not in fragments) where it is said that, when seen with the view of a boddhisattva, there is no difference between someone who is ”enlightened” (buddh - lit. ”awake") and one who is not. ... Found it, yes, it's that sutta, though maybe a different part of it, or different translation of what I was remembering ...
... the venerable Subhūti [considered the intellectually brightest of Buddha’s disciples] listened in accordance with the Bhagavān [ 'blessed fortunate one’ - an epithet of the Buddha ], and the Bhagavān said this:

“Subhūti, one who has correctly entered the bodhisattva’s ‘vehicle' should generate the mind [of enlightenment] thinking this:
    ‘As many as are included in the category of sentient being – born from egg, born from the womb, born from heat and moisture, born miraculously; with form, without form, with discrimination, without discrimination, without discrimination but not without [subtle] discrimination – the realm of sentient beings, as many as are designated by imputation as sentient beings, all those I shall cause to pass completely beyond sorrow into the realm of nirvana without remainder of the aggregates.

    Although limitless sentient beings have thus been caused to pass completely beyond sorrow, no sentient being whatsoever has been caused to pass completely beyond sorrow.’ [a seeming contradiction typical of much in Buddhism that is resolved by those who ”get it”"]
“Why is that? Because Subhūti, if a bodhisattva engages in discriminating a sentient being, he is not to be called a ‘bodhisattva.’

and
Thereupon, the venerable Subhūti, due to the impact of the Dharma, shed tears. Having wiped away the tears, he replied, “Bhagavān, this discourse on Dharma taught thus by the Tathāgata {one who has ‘made it”] is astonishing. . Bhagavān, I have never before heard this discourse on Dharma.

Bhagavān, those sentient beings who will produce correct discrimination upon this sūtra being explained will be most astonishing. Why is that? Bhagavān, because that which is correct discrimination is not discrimination...
... those sentient beings who take up this Dharma discourse, memorize, read, and understand it will be most astonishing.

Furthermore, Bhagavān, they will not engage in discriminating a self; will not engage in discriminating a sentient being, discriminating a living being, discriminating a person. Why is that? because Bhagavān, that itself which is discrimination as a self, discrimination as a sentient being, discrimination as a living being, and discrimination as a person is not discrimination.

Why is that? Because the Buddha bhagavāns are free of all discrimination.”
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post18 Mar 2017

Pink Panther wrote:Because the Buddha bhagavāns are free of all discrimination.”

Are we talking about "discrimination" or 'discernment' here?

Just because the Buddha bhagavāns are free of all discrimination, doesn't mean that every kid in the park plays football as well as Pele David Beckman ... which is why the Tibetans have never won the World Cup.

Just because the BKs' bhagavān is wonderful and mystical, it doesn't mean that it's automatically God.

I am not going to argue over Buddhism and its many realms of existence, but I'd say one needs to discern differences even if it is without discrimination.

The problem with the BKs has been, since the beginning, that everything is hyperbolic and exaggerated. It's not a spirit, it's a Supreme Being; it's not *a* Supreme Being, it's *the* Supreme Being; it's not a local cult (which it was), it's a global religion ... it's not a simple guru or master, it has to be the one Father of all humanity etc etc etc.

I am pretty sure Buddhism would be down on all that. At heart, the BKs are *full* of utterly inflexable, inescapable discrimination towards the rest of humanity.

More on "Who created Shiv Baba?" in my next post of historical revision within BKism.
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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post19 Mar 2017

Are we talking about "discrimination" or 'discernment' here?

Just because the Buddha bhagavāns are free of all discrimination, doesn't mean that every kid in the park plays football as well as Pele David Beckman ... which is why the Tibetans have never won the World Cup.

Probably translating Viveka - discrimination. Discernment is a synonym, a word meaning separate out and originally popularly applied to tasks like separating out usable charcoal from ashes, wheat from chaff, sheep from goats etc.

There is no dispute within Buddhism that discrimination exists conventionally, the ego exists conventionally, and so on. Buddhism is relativist in that it is both about seeing the world as it is, but also that nothing ”is” permanent. That there is a matrix within which we function but that it’s limited by who we are as human beings, and that with intellect and right thinking/seeing we stay aware of our own limitations and don’t ”grasp” or try to hold onto anything, expecting it to be anything other than transient.

Hence, as per the extract from the Diamond Sutta, that there is both discrimination and non-discrimination, and that one who chooses the way (vehicle) of the boddhisattva is aware there’s choice in ways of seeing, between whether to be discriminating or non-discriminating, and chooses non-discrimination - whilst staying aware of the ”everyday” discrimination that goes on ( - as the choice to be discriminating or not is always present).

I.E. to be in the world but not of it, to 'have nirvana in one eye and samsara in the other' - as the great philosopher Nagarjuna put it.
The problem with the BKs has been, since the beginning, that everything is hyperbolic and exaggerated.

I would add, absolutist.

The BK beliefs are absolutist and idealist, that conceptual things have own existence, that events are fixed - to the point that the past exists in the future and vice versa, that drama is fixed, that there is such a thing as spiritual status, that it is not only possible for a non-active, non-effective, non-dimensional, thing to be a ‘thing’ - talking about "Supreme Soul God Shiva” here - but that it can then, at a certain time, become active, effective, and interact dimensionally - engage in karma, including making errors - without being altered in any way by it (but mysteriously altering ’the drama’ for the better - in mysterious ways. Faith-demanding gobbledygook.

At every step, the BK teachings, from early Karachi days till now, have been attempting to rationalise a self-absorbed insular narcissism that is overlaid on a common innate human propensity for spiritual experience and experience of individuality/ego differentitation.

It has taken it in the form of spiritual exceptionalism, superiority & persecution complexes, derision of others as inferior and ignorant, fated to be less important, and via appeals to authority, one they self-declare as the highest, to justify whatever belief they are currently peddling.

The creation of "Parampita Paramatma God Father of all souls Shiva” in the 1950s is itself another extraction from the melange that is Hindu culture, probably in the hope of being universally appealing and universally relevant. That would take BKs out of the hindu-acceptable-only godman avatar culture (Prajapati God Brahma) and allow influence by Islam, sikhism, Christianity and Christian school educated followers like ”Mama” to re-rationalise it all and replace it with an ”incorporeal”monotheistic deity - which is still counterproductive because of its parochial claims (eg Mahabharat, Ram Raj, 5k year Kalpa etc).
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