Who created Shiv Baba

Scientific challenges to the beliefs promoted by the Brahma Kumaris so called "World Spiritual University"
  • Message
  • Author
Offline

Omkar Pandirkar

  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 06 Nov 2015

Who created Shiv Baba

Post06 Nov 2015

If we souls and the whole universe is created by Shiv Baba then who created Shiv Baba?
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9753
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post06 Nov 2015

Lekhraj Kirpalani did, around 1955. There was no mention of Shiva in the BKs' religion before then.

However, according to BKism, Shiv Baba is not created and does not create souls, nor the whole universe. They just always exists.

What are you thinking? Are you new to BKism? Are you thinking about becoming a BK?

In truth, there's really no value to such unprovable question and BKism does not really offer answers to them. It just uses a simple set of ideas to plug your mind and stop it from thinking so they and their god can feed off your money and energy.

Have you done the BK knowledge course?

Thank you.
Offline

Omkar Pandirkar

  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 06 Nov 2015

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post07 Nov 2015

Thanks for your reply and, yes, I have done the 7 Day Course. And do any other types of soul exist, like ghost or angels?
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9753
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post07 Nov 2015

Why does it matter?

What is your own experience?

What is your interest in the Brahma Kumaris and what is it that you are looking for?

The BKWSU or PBIVV might give you answer to plug all these questions but how can anyone tell if those answers are true?

What is more important is your practical life, and the world we can see around us.

The BKWSU calls itself a "Spritual University" but really the don't study these things. They have a very simple and narrow concept of life. "The Knowledge", as they call it, is really not knowledge; and the BKs really do not invest themselves in studying or increasing our knowledge of such matters.

All the BKs really have is a simple set of answers ... mental plugs not facts ... which any child or uneducated old lady could grasp. There purpose is to stop us thinking or questioning so we can become slaves to their leaders and god spirit.

A better question to ask would be, "what is the spirit of true nature of the BKs and their god spirit?"

If you are asking, "does the BKWSU study such things and have knowledge about them?", the answer is, sadly, no.

It's an End of the World cult that manipulates vulnerable people into handing over their money and working for them for free.
Offline

Omkar Pandirkar

  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 06 Nov 2015

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post08 Nov 2015

Your answer is quite offensive. If you do not know the answer to my question you would simply say a no. Why do you have to post such rubbish things? After all, it's all your look out.
Offline

Omkar Pandirkar

  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 06 Nov 2015

985 years left for the end of world.

Post08 Nov 2015

According to the years counting, it started from the birth of Jesus Christ.

According to BK, Christian dynasty was given on 2000 years by Jesus Christ.

So the current year in shrushti chakra will be 2000 + 2015 (current year) = 4015.

So for the end of the world there will be 5000 - 4015 = 985 years left.

Do correct me if I am wrong, with a proper explanation.

Om Shanti

image5.jpg
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9753
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post08 Nov 2015

You got the BK answer, which is "according to BKism, Shiv Baba is not created and does not create souls, nor the whole universe. They just always exists".

This forum is for helping people leaving the BKWSU, or for helping the friends and family of BK members, not to promote BKism, nor defend it.

If you want to discuss such matters with BKs, there are other forums for you to do so. Or you can go back to the BKWSU. But you'll find that is the BK answer, and they don't want to know any other answer.

What is your position or point? Are you a Hindu, a Vishnu Party member, or some other kind of BK splinter group member?
Omkar Pandirkar wrote:So the current year in shrushti chakra will be 2000 + 2015 (current year) = 4015. So for the end of the world there will be 5000 - 4015 = 985 years left. Do correct me if I am wrong, with a proper explanation.

There's no "proper explanation". There's no way to explain. There's no explanation behind the BKs' ideas and no grounds within BKism for your idea.

What the BKs say is the combined period of Copper and Iron Age is 2500 years. The Christian era started 2000 years ago (approx), the Copper Age started 500 years before that. Destruction is supposed to be "now". In the past, they have said it would be WWII, 1950, 1976, 1986, 1986 to 1996 and the Year 2000. And they are still waiting for it to happen. The Golden Age is supposed to start in 2036.

But, as I wrote, we are not here to promote or defend BKism. We are here to protect people from it. We can tell you what they really believe, but we do not believe it.
Offline

Omkar Pandirkar

  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 06 Nov 2015

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post09 Nov 2015

Thanks for your answer, it was quite satisfactory. But as you said, the Golden Age is supposed to start in 2036 again. Is it their thought or just a prediction?

Cause I had listened to a Murli in a centre near me that Destruction is ready to go, but this is just a revision period given by Baba for us.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9753
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post09 Nov 2015

They have been saying that since the 1980s at least. Perhaps earlier.

They used to claim the Confluence Age between the Iron Age and Golden Age was going to be 12 years, then 40 years, now 100 years ... but their predictions keep failing.

Rather than thought or prediction, I'd say it was their marketing strategy. If they can get people to believe civilisation will end in two to three years, as they have been saying since the 1930s, then they can exploit them into giving the BKs money, free labour and their properties.

It's a good confidence trick. 2 to 3 years is a short enough time to make people be willing to gamble on it; but long enough to suck people into the cult. By the time 2 or 3 years is up, and Destruction has still not taken place, they are too deeply committed in terms of money and energy and their minds reformed by the BKs.

Then, in 2 or 3 years, the BKs can add another 2 or 3 years ... and then another ... and then another.

The most famous one was the 1976 prediction of Destruction. It was written in the Murlis. They made a fortune off that. Quite a lot in Year 2000 as well.

The bottomline is, would "God" make or use false predictions, and then cover them up afterwards; and, having made numerous false predictions in the past, would you trust a god or god-men who do?
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1498
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post10 Nov 2015

Omkar, welcome. Many people who contribute to this forum are ex-BKs who were with the BK organisation for a very long time or maybe for a short time but were deeply involved in centres and with the head administrators and teachers.

Non-BKs of course don't care what this minor Hindu sect believes or doesn't believe. Ex-BKs, however, and various family and friends of BKs do care, because we have seen how the BKs ruin so many lives, not just of the BK but of those who know and care for these individuals who get caught up in the collective delusion. Families split, children abandoned, studies aborted, careers diverted and potentials unrealised ...

Nearly all of the original Om Mandli are dead, Nearly all of the next wave of BKs who joined once the group left Sindh and established in India are ailing, dead or dying. The first generation of foreigners who joined in the 1970s and 80s have reached retirement age or nearly so, many of our contemporaries have died childless or live in poverty without retirement savings because they trusted they were convinced this ”last of 84 births” wouldn’t last so long. People sold houses and took up small flats, donating the excess to the ”rudra Gyan yugya”. Hundreds of thousands of lives distorted or put on hold, all believed and trusted. Many of us left after the falseness became undeniable, we could not suspend disbelief any longer, we couldn't deny the stinking facts under our noses - of corruption, abuses, violence, murders, bribery, nepotism, sophistry, overt and covert racism, caste-ism, favouritism. For me, before most of these crimes came out, it was the lack of intellectual rigour and philosophical integrity, things that matter when such life-affecting claims are made. Things are never seriously questioned, or if they are, not seriously answered, the onus is always put back on the questioner to use suggested yuktis of avoidance, to forget such things and just ”Remember Baba”.

It's 2015, lakhs more people have become BKs. The organisation continually feeds on the enthusiasm (donations) of the newly converted while being steered by the ”commitment" of those whose lives have become so invested in it, taken over by it, they can no longert imagine how else to live.

The BK teaching is a malleable hybrid that changes to suit the need of the time. Which need? The need of the PBKIVV organisation to have an appearance of credibility. It relies on the faithful BKs to forgive the organisation its steady stream of changes (the old teachings were false? What old teachings? Please forget the revisions and edits), for mixing up of traditional teachings from scriptures with a hotch-potch of Sikh, Muslim, Christian and other ideas, so we get new ”explanations” for Krishna, Shiva, Shankara, Brahma, etc. And you thought they were mythical figures!

We get naive explanations of the world’s great traditional religions that have little bearing on the beautiful deeper truths found in them. They’ll insult or belittle great people so as to make BKs appear superior. We all know that a sign of weakness is the tactic to attack the person rather than what they teach (eg God did not incarnate as Christ, god only teaches BKs. God did not reveal truth through Gabriel to Mohammed, he teaches BKs, Buddha did not achieve awakening to a deeper truth because he does understand what God taught BKs).

It relies on the newly converted remaining ignorant of the many twists and turns of its history.

Would God make so many explicit predictions that fail, as ex-l mentioned, along with implied ones that followed? Would God say so many things that are just plainly wrong, that requires followers to ignore all evidence and logic and take his word for it? (which they do). Would God need all BKs to always reconcile the organisation's schizophrenic (some might say hypocritical) combination of avarice for accumulation of property & money while professing distaste for things material and ”body conscious’? Let alone celebrate it as they do ?
Is it their thought or just a prediction?

The BKs say everything they share through what they teach comes directly from God Shiva, who explains ”Godly Gyan” only to the BKs and directly through the Murli.

The Gyan, including the teaching of a global destruction that will ”cleanse” the world of 7 billion impure people (the rest of us) to create ”Ram Raj” an d”Sat Yuga” for 900,000 BKs-become-deities, ”the Chosen Few”, is therefore not just anyone’s idea or ”just a prediction” but is understood by BKs as the unalterable word of God.

Of course, most religions believe that God’s knowledge holds true, that any predictions are not God ‘speculating' but, based God’s title as Trikaldarshi, his ability to see past, present and future. God (supposedly) has an eyewitness knowledge of events that is beyond question, free of fault, so what need to backtrack, equivocate? . As ex-l said, there is a long history of using carrots and sticks, fear and promises, to sustain the PBKIVV (a.k.a. many other names) i.e. to keep people donating time, money and energy.

Look, everyone will agree with universal ideals - peace, brotherhood, seeign each other as equals. Religiously minded people like to consider these ideas in terms of all humans are ”children” of God . Dualistic idealist thinkers like to divide abstracts and consider them divine and absolute and having "own being”. The egoistically challenged want to feel special and if they can convince themselves that, although all things are one, some ”ones’ are better than other ”ones” , a ”higher” self can exist without a ”lower” self without being a house divided, and is the left-self better than the right-self, or what about the front-self relative to the back-self?

The BKs teach that God is the Father of All Souls, but he speaks directly only to the BKs. If that is the case, why is the BK knowledge so shallow? Why does it always adjust itself to suit ”the market”? (In the West, they do have decided to use the euphemism ”Transformation” instead of "World Destruction” but they still have to accept that for the ”transformation” to be completed, 7 billion people must die quickly).

Surely God is beyond such things? Actually there was a time when the Gyan was always spoken to the public in unadulterated fashion, directly and bluntly, no wishy-washy PR obfuscations. I would volunteer on BK exhibition stands or go on ”Peace Marches”, telling "God has come, Kali yuga is going Sat Yuga is coming, there is only one God and his name is not allah but Shiva, Jesus was a second rate BK, democracy is the blind leading the blind, rivers of blood will flow etc etc” Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) and ”Mama" would write letters to the King of England and various other world leaders.

You should search the library area of this site or the forums for discussions on the history of this group. "Those who do not learn the lessons of history are destined to repeat it".

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/about/library/
Offline

Omkar Pandirkar

  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 06 Nov 2015

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post11 Nov 2015

Your reply is bit large, but not the answer to my question, "Who created Shiv Baba?". ex-l replied to it shortly and simply, that no one was created, it just exist, which was satisfactory what do you have to say about it?
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1498
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post11 Nov 2015

"Who created Shiv Baba?”... what do you have to say about it?

To ask who created a mythical figure is to chase through the shadows of unwritten history. Myths (literally "oft-told stories”) grow through their retelling. Like parables and fables, it is not that the characters are historically proven to exist, but as archetypal figures can be used in stories that carry lessons for society and for individuals. They can become ‘real” in the minds of those who are affected by the story, by those who see the story as explaining their reality.

Do the ”djinn” exist? Does Satan exist? Satan is seen as a metaphor by some but is an actual being for others. Do forest spirits exist? The Great Whale of the Polynesians is as real to them as Krisna is to a follower of Caitanya and as real as the Rainbow Serpent is to the longest continuing culture on this planet, the Australian aboriginals .

Who created Shiva? Is the question asking about the word or the concept? If the concept, which one?

Shiva is an epithet that means ”auspicious one” in Sanskrit and ”red one” in Tamil. The way Shiva is commonly understood today evolved through millennia of stories. The BK's concept is a variation based on what went before.

”Shiva" is essentially a conflation (merging) of archetypes; masculine fertility deities such as. Khandoba in Maharasthra and Surya (sun gods are common in all cultures going back to the times before fire was mastered, let alone electric lights ;) and largely a combined form of Agni and Rudra whom I'll assume you have heard of.
The interconnections between the two deities are complex, and according to Stella Kramrisch:

The fire myth of Rudra-Śiva plays on the whole gamut of fire, valuing all its potentialities and phases, from conflagration to illumination.[71]

In the Śatarudrīya, some epithets of Rudra, such as Sasipañjara ("Of golden red hue as of flame") and Tivaṣīmati ("Flaming bright"), suggest a fusing of the two deities.[72] Agni is said to be a bull,[73] and Lord Shiva possesses a bull as his vehicle, Nandi. The horns of Agni, who is sometimes characterized as a bull, are mentioned.[74][75] In medieval sculpture, both Agni and the form of Shiva known as Bhairava have flaming hair as a special feature.[76]


The Shaiva Agamas (11th century Tantras) are shruti - supposed to have been spoken by Shiva directly.

But the BKs say Shiva speaks only to them at this time.

The leader of the splinter group, the ”Shankar party” the AVV also known as PBKs, says that Shiva no longer speaks through the BKWSU, but now gives ”advanced knowledge” through them. There is also a ”Vishnu Party” offshoot who claim authority...

Q. If someone else tomorrow says Shiva is speaking to them, and then another day in another place someone else says it is Shiva speaking, who will people believe?

A. The short answer - the one they want to believe.

Q. Should the sincere seeker after truth accept his own prejudices?

If you can understand that every god dies when humans cease to believe in them (how many once living, once recognised as powerful gods, are now historical footnotes?) if you can understand that the form of God changes according to what the individual believer beleives, you will see that Shiva is a concept that, having no concrete reality, is created by anyone who conceives of ”god” and names their god ”Shiva”.

The evolution (creation) of the BK god Shiva has been covered many times on this forum, summarised by ex-l for you earlier.

Search (O seeker) the archives and you will find documented history of the BKs, documents showing that their Shiva is a later ”invention” from around the 1950s, the narrative being reworked to cover the previous inconsistencies.

As the great anthropologist and mythologist Joseph Campbell said ”“Myth is what we call other people's religion.” He could have just as easily said "“Myth is what we call other people's reality”.
Offline

Omkar Pandirkar

  • Posts: 19
  • Joined: 06 Nov 2015

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post11 Nov 2015

Your answer was good and I got the point that no one has a scientific proof but according to our BK knowledge given to us Shiv had entered the body of Dada Lekhraj to give The Knowledge of who is God.

It is said that Brahma has created the universe (brahmand), is it true or has it just existed??

And I must say your reply is much to the point. Om Shanti.
Offline
User avatar

Pink Panther

  • Posts: 1498
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2013

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post11 Nov 2015

Omkar, my first reply was not to the topic question but to the previous posts by you and ex-l which I thought had covered it. As you asked me specifically, in the next post i answered from scratch.

Now you will notice my answer took in ”objective’ understandings, things we can all agree on based on evidence. We all accept :
    - that the idea of Shiva has existed for a long time.
    - that the Tantric texts and the Vedas and the local mythologies all have existed, grown and changed over time.
    - that different yogis, gurus, mediums (sincere or fake) are inspired by, or inspire others with, the idea of Shiva.
    - that others will attribute similar experiences and ideas to other concepts, deities or ”energies” with other names and associated stories
I also mentioned that given the different claims for intangible explanations, people will choose to believe what suits them at the time. So, if one is to merely accept blindly any story that is told, especially one that carries imperatives and demands on how one lives one’s life, without testing its veracity, one is what is known in american slang as a ”sucker” ( a naive gullible fool who will accept whatever is fed to him, and can be exploited).

You may have a more difficult task of untangling truth from embellishments because you are acculturated to think in terms of Hindu deities which have, by reasons of history, various complexities complications, inadequacies and contradictions. One who is trying to understand one’s experiences and one's culture from within that culture will look for simplifications and consistency couched in terms of that culture.

But is that adequate for the deeper, universal essentially human questions - around existence, reality, life, relationships - that go on whether one is vedantin, confucian, animist, monotheist, atheist, etc?

So we look to what we all can agree on to get to the heart of such universal questions. For those who are not highly skilled in self-circumspection and analysis, or who have motivations and needs that cloud judgement (and that is everyone, to differing degrees) at some stage it becomes an easier option to just go along with a language and narrative that ”feels right” or gives you a feelgood experience, so you adopt that identity and can now put down the burden of continually challenging one’s ego.

BKs teach their version of Vedas and Vedanta (claiming them as inferior, faulty memories of Sangam Yuga) usurping the name Raja Yoga (which, given its antiquity, cannot be challenged under trademark law - but it should be!). They teach a certain meditation which is not unique but which for many people gives them their first experiences of ”formal” meditation, so they gullibly accept the explanations as to why they get the experiences they do (indeed, that’s what I did). But can we base acceptance of BKs claims about Shiva on such experiences? If the truth about Shiva is what we are concerned about, Isn’t it negligent to not test out the claims of others who teach about Shiva or claim authority of Shiva behind their practices?

Have you practiced as a Shaivite tantric yogi? Have you untangled or tested the claims of the BK Supreme Soul Shiva? Have you tested the claims of Vereendra Dev Dixit of the PBKs who now claims to be the authentic representative of Shiva?

To use the old Jain fourfold analytical principle, either:
    What BKs claim is the only truth about Shiva and others are wrong
    What someone else claims is the only truth about Shiva and BKs are wrong
    What everyone claims about Shiva, including BKs and others, is true
    All claims about Shiva, BK or others, are not true
In the end, you must include all factors into a rationalisation. If there are 7 objects on the table but you choose to ignore 3 because your beliefs say you should ignore those three for whatever reason, then you insist there are only 4 real objects, how does that fit with universal, consensual reality?

More importantly, how will it affect your ability to experience life to the full?

The nature of "Shiva" is an abstract debate because Shiva is whatever anyone wants Shiva to be.

To deny evidence under your nose, to choose to be blind to facts obvious to any man, woman or beast because they are ”inconvenient” to ego identity, which must prove to itself it is right, that is either "ignorance by choice" or solipsism.
Offline
User avatar

ex-l

ex-BKWSU

  • Posts: 9753
  • Joined: 07 Apr 2006

Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Nov 2015

Omkar Pandirkar wrote:... but according to our BK knowledge given to us ... Om Shanti.

Polite question, Omkar.

You now write "our BK knowledge" and end your posts Om Shanti.

Are you a BK, and have you come to challenge us to a philosophical debate?

Or are you a Hindu with some Hindu ideas still in their mind, trying to make BK ideas fit to them or replace them?

As Pink writes, the BKs have given new meanings to all Hindu marketing terms and throw out basically all Hindu beliefs. It confuses people. In BKism, Lekhraj Kirpalani is God Brahma, therefore he could not have, and did not created the universe (brahmand). It all just exists/exited forever.

You say, "Shiv had entered the body of Dada Lekhraj to give The Knowledge of who is God". It is amazing but it took over 20 years (after 1955) before the god spirit of BKism started to claim to be god, or was claimed to be god by the BKs. In the early days, they claimed Lekhraj Kirpalani was God.

Now, given the extent of the Brahma Kumaris' sanskars of a) concerted dishonesty, b) self-delusion, and c) ego-centric grandiosity it is very difficult for us to know what that god spirit actually claimed.

If a thief entered your house at night and claimed he was the rightful owner of it, would you believe him just because he said he was? What makes you believe he is god, just because you were told to?

At this point, I don't even know if the god spirit of the BKs, let's call it BapDada rather than Shiva, actually claimed he was god or whether it is all one big misunderstanding ... or a deliberate deception.
Next

Return to Scientific questions for BKs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest