Who created Shiv Baba

Scientific challenges to the beliefs promoted by the Brahma Kumaris so called "World Spiritual University"
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Omkar Pandirkar

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Nov 2015

Yes, I have joined bkswu 1 year ago, and also I don't like just worshipping a idol made of stone or any other material.

But, as mentioned in the Quran, God exists without place, "No vision can grasp him, but His grasp is over all vision".

In Christianity, God is a Trinity. This means that God is three persons,not three gods. Technically, the doctrine of the Trinity states that in the one God is the person of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

In Bhagwad Gita there is too mention of god being a point source of light.

So, as said in BK knowledge, it's true, hence I follow BK and if you think its a philosophical debate then, no, I have just came here to clear the doubts I had because I cannot go to Madhuban now because of studies.

One more question to you, I have seen during Navratis that there is some thing called "iske sharir mein mata aai hai", so is it true, or is the person just doing some acting to gain attention?
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ex-l

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Nov 2015

By Navaratris, do you mean something to do with the "Art of Living" people or some other religion? Yes, many other religions have ecstatic celebrations, practise their form of "spirit possession" as BKs do.

But ask Pink Panther about meeting BapDada as he has done so a number of times when BKs used to meet him one by one or in a small groups.

BK philosophy is very self-referential.

It is "true" because it says it is "true", and even when it was clearly wrong or false, and had to be re-written by some Madhubhan niwassis. They are constantly changing it. For example, changing the history or predictions of the Destruction. Even when they are indoctrinating new individuals such as yourself into false versions.

This is a big problem with the BKs and it raising very big questions about their ethics.

Can you make an Age of Truth out of telling lies?

Would a "supreme god" get things wrong allow that to happen, or would he only be true?
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Omkar Pandirkar

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Nov 2015

Their predictions are failing in Destructions or they do not want to tell us the exact date to save the other non BK souls?

Let it be, but my question was about that act a person does. During the aarti of Navratri, is on he or she gets the hand joined and starts moving them up and down continuously?
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ex-l

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Nov 2015

The predictions failed.

Do you think the BKs are the truth and the god spirit of the BKs is the one and only supreme god?

What happens at the centre when you ask such questions? cannot they answer?
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Omkar Pandirkar

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Nov 2015

I visit the centre very often due to my studies. But next time when I will visit I will be there a bit before to clarify it but hopefully after my 12th and entrance exam.

Om Shanti
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Omkar Pandirkar

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post12 Nov 2015

i meant to say not very often
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Pink Panther

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post13 Nov 2015

hmmm, seems I wasted my time writing in-depth answers which draw no response, neither agreement, disagreement nor thanks for the time it took.

Omkar is in Honeymoon Period, in love, the romance will not let him see because he is busy projecting his ideals.
The zeal of the new convert allows no circumspection.

Omkar, what are you studying?
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ex-l

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post13 Nov 2015

See above, 12 years old or Year 12, as in 'sixth form' ... so is "entrance exam" for university?

Is your mother or are your parents in the PBKIVV, Omkar?

How did you get involved?
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Mr Green

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post13 Nov 2015

"Even Shiv Baba has to obey the Laws of Karma!"

I am sure it says that somewhere in the Murlis. There obviously will be no answer from the BKs, they have no answer any more about anything. They are running out of steam
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Pink Panther

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post13 Nov 2015

ex-l wrote:See above, 12 years old or Year 12, as in 'sixth form' ... so is "entrance exam" for university?

Oh dear. That explains the limited world view.

I was only a few years out of high school when I ”fell in love” with the BKs. Omkar, please do not do what I did and waste the most youthful, formative foundational years of your life in a cult.
(Like mythology, cults are what other people’s beliefs get called - no-one in a cult calls it a cult)


Please study, informally or formally, some comparative religion, critical or analytical thinking, join a philosophy group, do things where you have to test your ways of thinking against others. A student is by definition humble, willing to accept there is more to know.

It is not about aggregating selectively picked facts & quotes to support a predetermined position (like your quote from the Koran or chrisatianity - if they’re valid, why not be a Muslim or a Christian then?). It's about being cohesive (not self-contradicting) AND correlative (does it stand up when all evidence is taken into account, rather than ignoring what doesn’t suit your argument?) Like a murder mystery, if there is even one substantial piece of evidence that proves the suspect is not the killer, he must be dismissed despite what you want to believe or the circumstantial evidence that made him a suspect.

Good luck with your exams Omkar.
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because.parmeshwar

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post14 Nov 2015

What you can say about that religion which stops you to eat even the most nourished, vegetarian food served with love from your near and dear ones?

Who created such "Shiv Baba" ?
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Omkar Pandirkar

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post14 Nov 2015

Pink Panther, it's not about religion, it was just created during the Copper Age. Before that, in both ages, there was no religion.

Quran, Bible, Bhagwad Gita and the one Punjabis read in Gurudwara, all these are holy books are for particular religions.
Every religion talks about peace and love but very less people look upon this.

There are Hindu, Muslims, Christians BKs from all over the world.

And thanks for the advice but I am not in love with anyone, I am just in 12th preparing for boards.
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Omkar Pandirkar

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post14 Nov 2015

because.parmeshwar wrote:What you can say about that religion which stops you to eat even the most nourished, vegetarian food served with love from your near and dear ones?

Which religion stops to eat me the "vegetarian food" served with love from your near and dear ones?
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ex-l

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post14 Nov 2015

Which religion stops to eat me the "vegetarian food" served with love from your near and dear ones?

Brahma Kumarism if you follow it strictly ... unless, of course, your mother and Father are also BKs.

In BKism, you are only allow to eat food prepared by other BKs. Are you family BKs? Is that how you became involved in it?
Omkar Pandirkar wrote:... religion, it was just created during the Copper Age.

There are Hindu, Muslims, Christians BKs from all over the world.

Omkar,

Firstly, we know very well what the Brahma Kumaris teach; and we also know how the Brahma Kumaris trick and manipulate. We were once BK students and teachers until we saw through all the deception.

The world history the BKs teach is not true. The story they tell about Lekhraj Kirpalani is not true. The predictions of Destruction they made, were not true. It is not true to say, "there are Hindu, Muslims, Christians BKs from all over the world" as those are reincarnated BK souls, not belonging to the other religions; therefore, it's likely that the claims they make about their god spirit, are also not true, and that he is not the God of all religions.

Wake up and open your mind before you waste your young life.

And don't waste our time telling us what we already know about BKism.

If you are ready to start questioning BKism, if you are ready to free yourself from their influence, if you want to know how you are being manipulated into an illusion, then we are happy to help you.

Countless precious lives have been waste because of BKism, countless families split apart, countless properties and millions of dollars have been sucked up in their lust for power and influence. If you follow BKism, the best you will end up is wasting your life as their unpaid servant.

That is what BKism is about and does.

Do not get sucked in the ego trap of BKism. BKism is designed to appeal to your wish to be special, exploit your interest in spirituality etc but, in truth, it will only make you stupid. If you become a follower or, deeply dishonest, if you become a teacher, either way, you won't progress in understanding.

The "Knowledge" is not knowledge at all. They don't even know about the other religions that they have stolen their words and ideas from.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Who created Shiv Baba

Post15 Nov 2015

Omkar Pandirkar wrote:Pink Panther, it's not about religion, it was just created during the Copper Age. Before that, in both ages, there was no religion.
Copper Age? Upon what basis do you use that term?

Year 12 exams at school? What have you learnt?

Are you seriously thinking that before 500 BC there was no religion? Do you think a true God doesn’t know history, geology, geo-physics paleontology?

The "evidence under our noses” I referred to in my earlier replies to you is the obvious hard, physical evidence of physics, maths, archeology, biology. You have to throw out all that knowledge, undeniable by all tests (other than just wishing it away) to accept ”Copper Age”.

Please Omkar, with full respect, I am writing to you as if I was writing to my younger self who, as I said, foolishly joined the BKs when I was was only a few years out of high school. I was not stupid. I was among the top achievers in my year. (Interestingly, the intelligent & idealistic are often the ones who rationalise and explain to themselves what they want to be true better than the less intelligent, so they often get drawn in. Studies into cults, extreme political and religious groups etc show this.)

I wish someone took the time to talk me through things clearly and rationally. There were no internet forums in those days. In life, people will ask you to believe all kinds of things. Please take the time to consider each point of what you are being asked to believe.
Quran, Bible, Bhagwad Gita and the one Punjabis read in Gurudwara, all these are holy books are for particular religions. Every religion talks about peace and love but very less people look upon this.

The Sikh scripture is the Guru Grath Sahb. All are of their time and cultures. They are moral guide books for their people, and they are attempts at explaining existence from a time before scientific method and rational secular exploration of societies etc.

BK teachings reflect the time and culture of its founder Lekhraj. That is, the Gyan (as it calls itself) is not from a Supreme God but from a 19th century self-annointed ”spiritual teacher” who thought he was God at first, and later decided there must be another explanation ... the Gyan, when examined, reveal exactly that.

He was a man born in the latter half of the 19C, his education barely a fraction of today's. The level of understanding of history, science, societies and culture was very limited, filled with the prejudices of the day. He believed in caste, in monarchy, in racial categories. He did not know the difference between Islam and Judaism (the BK picture of The Tree was changed after he died). He ignored 1/4 of the world’s population in the ”Human geneological world tree!!”. Where are the Taoists, Confucians and Shintoists of China, Japan and Korea? Where are the animists and shamanist religions of the African, North and South American continents?

The word ”geneological” is used in the BK posters etc but genetics show humanity came out of Africa. Modern biology and medicine would not work as it does if evolutionary genetics was wrong.

Your computer and smartphone and aircraft navigation would not work if Einstein’s Relativity theory was wrong. It is not, which means astrophysics and the size and age of the universe as conceived by Lekhraj/Brahma BapDada is mistaken. Such mistakes are understandable, he was trying to make sense of the world he was surrounded by in terms he was educated and enculturated in, i.e. the mythologies of scripture & Hindustani culture rather than modern, secular, universal sciences etc. Please, when you have time after the end of the school term, look up discussions here about science and Gyan or history and Gyan.

To understand 'how is it we know what we know' is called ”Epistomology”. If you go to university, I can recommend it as a subject you should get acquainted with. If you do an Arts or Philosophy course, or maybe as part of any science in the philosophy of science?
and thanks for the advice but I am not in love with anyone, I am just in 12th preparing for boards.

I meant you are in love with your current understanding, not a person. The work of the young is to develop a healthy identity, to develop a sense of themselves in the world and take their place in it. That dynamic includes infatuation with one’s newfound discoveries and exploring them further. We all do it.

What we are asking of you is to not get caught in the trap of ”the romance” of idealism and your current ”spiritual” experience. Like a romance, idealism and youthful discovery lets us think it is we who have invented the wheel for the first time. OK, It’s normal for the young to question the advice of those older, as if we are cynical ”old fogeys”. By all means, question us, we will answer straightforwardly and honestly. But also, please question the BK ”old fogeys” too, about the things they teach and expect you to believe, or about their history, see how honestly they answer you. it will all be ”just remember Baba, do Yoga and service”.

Please, explore this site and look at the BKWSU documents which even the BKWSU doesn’t want its people to know about. You may not know it but there is a "war” within the BKs about how it handles its own history. Please read the personal experiences of the many who have written here about their BK lives, the good and the bad.
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