Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Scientific challenges to the beliefs promoted by the Brahma Kumaris so called "World Spiritual University"
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Pink Panther

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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post15 Aug 2016

More research on genetic inheritance (posted for consideration by those who still hold to ”karma” and reincarnation as the only possible explanations for certain phenomena) .

Study of Holocaust survivors finds trauma passed on to children's genes
New finding is clear example in humans of the theory of epigenetic inheritance: the idea that environmental factors can affect the genes of your children

research by Azim Surani at Cambridge University and colleagues, has recently shown that some epigenetic tags escape the cleaning process at fertilisation, slipping through the net. It’s not clear whether the gene changes found in the study would permanently affect the children’s health, nor do the results upend any of our theories of evolution.

Whether the gene in question is switched on or off could have a tremendous impact on how much stress hormone is made and how we cope with stress, said Yehuda. “It’s a lot to wrap our heads around. It’s certainly an opportunity to learn a lot of important things about how we adapt to our environment and how we might pass on environmental resilience.”

The impact of Holocaust survival on the next generation has been investigated for years - the challenge has been to show intergenerational effects are not just transmitted by social influences from the parents or regular genetic inheritance, said Marcus Pembrey, emeritus professor of paediatric genetics at University College London.

“Yehuda’s paper makes some useful progress. What we’re getting here is the very beginnings of a understanding of how one generation responds to the experiences of the previous generation.

... and a counter, skeptical view on this idea here.

which ends with
This excitement about the unquestionable impact of our genes on rare disease, cancer and the ability to pin down many aspects of human life – from disease to behaviour – to molecular machines doesn’t mean genetics rules us. Indeed,for the vast majority of our lives, we make decisions that can have profound effects on ourselves and other people through changing our environment – diet, smoking, exercise etc. This is true on an individual and societal level, and it’s true for changes that have both good and bad effects.

We don’t need to challenge genetics – with epigenetics or anything else – to assert our control. Self-determination is not at odds with the genetic discoveries being made today. You are truly far more than your genes - your DNA is not your destiny.
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human being

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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post25 Aug 2016

Quite a lot to read in this thread so I just skimmed it as I found it interesting. So, here is an analogy for you guys:

Imagine an organism with only two sense organs, the nose and the skin. Now, if you have to communicate to it what you mean by rainbow and have a discussion with it on the same (by various types of highly sensitive physical contacts of course!) imagine the fun!

Let's say this particular organism is highly 'intelligent' among its fellows, that is to say that it has developed a step by step methodology to understand the reality around it based on the data/info it gathers by roaming as far as it is possible for an organism of its species. It touches many different 'things' ,smells them,tabulate their properties and attains great knowledge about a lot of things. Not only that, it develops tools that can enhance its sense of smell and touch to great extent. Still if you can communicate with the species and try to convey what is meant by a rainbow, no matter how intellectually you try to do it, chances of it getting the exact 'picture' of what you are trying to say are slim at best.

This analogy given by the great 'human being' on this forum is a feeble attempt to try presenting the Indian approach to 'understanding the reality/truth'. It claims that there is another sense which lies dormant within us. Those of us who can awaken it will be 'enlightened' to the nature of reality as it is without the need of complex calculations and rigorous proofs. Much like a human being would be able to understand the rainbow far better than the hypothetical species of above example. Even if our intelligent friend in above example may have thousands of times more powerful sense of smell/touch than us simply because we have more number of sense organs than it, not just quantitatively but qualitatively.

This higher sense/sixth sense help us see and manipulate matter and energy in a totally different way and at a totally different level than a being with only five senses (what our dear BKs call a body conscious soul body-consciously ;))
So to a staunch materialist like pink here it is very difficult to prove the existence of soul etc without giving them the 'experience'. But to give experience without a logical and 'scientific' explanation can simply make you a frenzied
fanatic with manic tendencies or some other psychological problems etc.

So, various books were written with the approach of 'follow this path and if such and such happens within you, you are on the right path and continue'. These books are called 'Smritis' and vedas are part of them. They make no mention of god etc but, to put it in atheistic Buddhist way, of the 'laws of universe'.

This approach of enhancing ones senses to get a better and better view of reality rather than improving upon our 5 senses by developing technology and using it to go deeper into the nature of reality is a fundamentally different approach. Sadly, in your part of the world, religion is synonymous with repression of critical thinking and therefore anyone who is seen as a religious fellow is seen as someone who is keen to believe in what is written in the book rather
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post25 Aug 2016

than follow what is written, experiment it in his own life, and than compare his experiences with what is written in books make up his own opinion,as societies have evolved in a very different way in east and West. So, I have seen a tendency to ridicule spirituality among biologists etc as they simply relate it with pseudoscience or sophistry.

As far as your particular discussion about karma v/s genes, I will give you an example. You remember when we used to solve questions on mechanics in high school? Some would solve quickly with conservation of energy while others using force equlibrium but once solved both the conditions, ie dynamic equlibrium as well as energy conservation equations will be satisfied automatically. This discussion is like this only. Once a body is taken you can explain its taking on gene theory and karmic philosophy and both will simultaneously apply to the same person as both approaches are trying to grasp reality in their respective 'planes'. One within the plane of 5 senses and the other in the sixth.

The point I want to make is that more than science, it's the scientific approach which should be valued. I hope one day will come when sciences we know it will start delving deep into spiritual dimension and not be satisfied by ridiculing or downplaying it merely as 'psychological phenomena'. But till then all we can do is try different schools of thoughts and simply keep an open and welcoming mind.

Good night
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post25 Aug 2016

The point I want to make is that more than science, it's the scientific approach which should be valued.

... as in applying "scientific rigor" to spiritual or spiritualist phenomena, e.g. demanding reliable reproducibility.

I don't disagree with that. I would only caution you against Indian nationalistic chauvanism. There are, for example, a number network of scientists in the West proposing and attempting exactly that. One is the "Scientific & Medical Network". I remember them saying it 30 years ago. You can go back 70 you have Rudolf Steiner, then to over 100 years when all the great minds of the time were attempting to investigate and reconcile spiritism and the spiritualism revival of that era. Go back approx 200 years and you have Swedenborg (one of the greatest scientists and mystic of his age) and Goethe. Then you have the 100s of years of Western tradition of alchemy, the Jewish and Islamic scholars who begot it.

One of the great embarrassments of the Brahma Kumaris' so called World Spiritual University is that 70 years on, they have still not produce a single paper to be published by a reputable journal. But who am I kiding ... they are a cult dabbling in spiritualistic or psychic phenomena they have little clue about.

I suppose scientific method has been greatly refined in the last 100 years ... how's the state of art in the Indian spiritual world?

Are there any active genuine mahatmas that we can experiment on?

The BKs only have ... had ... Dadi Janki and her fraudulent claim to being the world's most stable mind.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post26 Aug 2016

So to a staunch materialist like pink here it is very difficult to prove the existence of soul etc without giving them the 'experience'.


A staunch materialist? Moi? You misunderstand me. I adhere to the middle way these days. On matters ‘spiritual' I find the ch’an Buddhist philoosphy the best descriptor. The Buddha did not deny ”spirituality” - or whatever equivalent terminology he would have used in ancient Pali. But he did base his view on three basic tenets, one of which is anatta (in Pali) or anatman (in sanskrit) - which translates as "no immortal individual entity” .

That is not to say that people do not have ”spiritual” experiences. It is akin to presuming your creature of skin and nostrils has no ideation goign in response to its single sense input. As soon as there is an internal cognition to a sense stimulus you have something other than what was before that moment of cognition. That cognition and whatever it entails - be it emotional, instinctual, behavioural - is what we call ‘spiritual”, a non-material aspect that has eventuated or come into existence.

One example I used to use when I taught BK meditation that parallels the Buddhist phenomenology (Ayatana - the six sense bases) was that a sign of ”soul" was the act of seeing or hearing etc. We have an eye, the organ of sight, and we have an object that light shines on and is reflected from. Even if photons are entering that eyeball and hitting an optic nerve, there is no ”seen, seeing, or seer” if there is no life, if it's a corpse. A seer, or sensor, (even if it only a nose and skin) indicates ”life”. But it is one thing to say ”life is a spiritual experience” and a big difference to say that ”life” is an autonomous immortal being. That is an unproveable conjecture.

So as per scientific method (as you and ex-l have mentioned) - there is more than enough to deal with from what we know for sure through objective ”consensual” knowledge* to worry about an ” immortal self” . Whether or not there is or isn’t ”atman” is irrelevant. What’s relevant is behaviour, actions. Give me a kind, generous and compassionate materialist ahead of a facile, egotistical self-glorifying ”soul” or ”god” any day.

*"consensually” known through one’s own 6 senses confirming each other (looks, walks and quacks like a duck then its in line with my idea of a duck ) and what is in consensus with other people's (who also agree that it looks, walks, quacks like what they would also call a duck).
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post26 Aug 2016

The reason I wrote such a lengthy piece in such a haphazard way was that I got a feeling reading posts of particularly pink that he was constantly trying to explain 'spiritual/exta-sensory experiences' one undergoes using terms like hypnosis etc. This tendency I have seen among very respectable scientists like Richard Dawkins(big fan BTW) etc.by trying to deny or often ridicule NDE like experiences.IT'S NOT ABOUT EAST v/s West AT ALL.

The point is that philosophy has evolved very differently here in east and when you look or read the literature here and if you are born and raised in a judao-christian tradition you are far more likely to misunderstand as the so-called experts on scriptures both Indian and Western are more or less unfamiliar with the traditional Indian outlook to reality,and hence,merely reading the books intellectually often leads one to wrong deductions,thats all.

As far as publishing papers,or looking at eastern spiritual texts in a scientific way is concerned only scientists i.e people trained in that king of thought process can attempt that and thats where I feel dissapointed that metaphysics etc. is kind of a taboo for a physicst/biologist to pursue in phD. Also a lot of people here in India who have genuine experiences are illiterate and often inarticulate and as long as this 'field' is considered as such by the established scientists its entire wealth will remain unavailable to common man.This,in my opinion,gives rise to either the likes of Sister Shivani types or charlatans like Deepak Chopra.However,just because you encounter people like them on this path does not mean that the path itself is invalid.Often after suffering setbacks one forgets that and I thought it worth mentioning.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post26 Aug 2016

As far as the existence of a soul is concerned neither hinduism nor nor any of its derivatives like Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism make a claim for such an entity (atman/brahman is a very different idea which people often confuse with soul).

In fact, I think that BKs draw the inspiration from Christianity/Abrahamic faiths. The GOD there is also very Abrahamic in nature. The thing is, there was never a boundary separating these faiths to begin with and it is a very recent construct. The Buddhist view appeals more to people primarily because it is easier to understand as the philosophy is coherent. Also it has a hierarchy where you can go to a scholar and he can go to his master/senior and, unlike, Hinduism which has no such organised structure to compile various philosophies and present them in a modern 'scientific' way. But if you go to traditional Buddhist places it Bhutan, Tibet, Nepal etc Hindu scriptures find there place in Buddhist/Jain places and vice versa. The reason is that there is an understanding that all these are different approaches towards 'realization' of same truth and which book/philosophy would suit one will depend on the person. Of course, I am not talking about the common crowd which confuses culture/customs with religion and does not bother much.

But one thing is common among all Indic faiths and that is arriving at the truth through a realized being. That's why for a very long time books were not written as it was believed that knowledge should be transmitted from one master to the disiple. Budhha's teachings were written long after he died. Same for Jainis, Sikhi etc. Use of religion as a tool to convert people and then use them for attaining political gains is not a thing of the East and I am not being 'nationalistic' here.

It's something which I have seen a lot of the Westerners completely fail to understand, while giving opinions about Eastern religions (Wendy Doniger types) and they play an important role in forming a general opinion about about a place and its philosophy which is often reflected in the thought process of a common man or even a scientist.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post26 Aug 2016

You have taken the discussion well off topic. It is about the fact that the most recent research into the new field of genetics (we only fully mapped the human genome in the last 16 years) is now finding through experiment certain facts that can explain certain phenomena with alternative possible answers to those provided by religions and philosophies which could only "conjecture”.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post26 Aug 2016

human being wrote:The reason is that there is an understanding that all these are different approaches towards 'realization' of same truth and which book/philosophy would suit one will depend on the person.


I think this just evolved socially as a method of confrontation avoidance rather than being a "spiritual truth" or method.

Scientifically, we are all human, our genes are exceptional similar, therefore an effective spiritual practise should also be universal ... eg "do this and you get that" ... but it just does not work out that way.

Ditto, oral traditions. Were they "spiritual", or just because they had not invented a printing press and having scribes manually writing scriptures out was hugely costly; example, one scribe would required 100 farmers and peons to sustain them. They did not have TV and Facebook to ruin their brains, so they memorised scriptures and histories instead.

I tend to look at things from the point of view of sociology and resource management now. There's a lot of research into the difference between agrarian societies (Hindus and Buddhists) and nomadic ones (like early Islam), and their gods.

I'd say religions and their gods are very much a product of the geography they arise from.

Yes, we are heading off topic for this topic but are on topic for this forum. Perhaps we should split this discussion?

I am interested in your view of Lekhraj Kirpalani's god spirit being much more of a Christian/Abrahamic one. I agree with that. I have argued that regarding his End of the World fixation. The BKs have a false history of their founder's life. I am strongly expecting to find some Christian influence within, e.g. meeting missionaries in Calcutta etc. Obviously within the Sind, there were many Muslims and good relationships there ... but the Biblical-like god within BKism did not evolve until after 1955-60.

And, I would argue, has become even moreso post the influence of Western BKs. That is to say, the BKs changed their god to suit the Western marketplace and translated that back to India as a modernisation.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post27 Aug 2016

Sociological approach is totally a Western approach and although it often brings rationality in one's perspective by avoiding emotional attachment to some philosophy and looking at things which can be backed up by archeological evidence etc there is a reason why it cannot be considered as science. Strictly speaking even economics is not considered as a science let alone geography (plate tectonics is still a theory) and sociology simply is not in the league because unlike genetics and biology it makes too many assumptions in the very beginning, e.g civilization started in Africa etc. Also, I believe that it has a colonial influence on it (I may be wrong but after reading Wendy Doniger and a few similar sociologists I simply could not generate enough respect for it as it was pretty evident to me that she was wrongfully and often deliberately twisting things. Perhaps my bias towards the subject arise from there. I know that she does not represent the entire school of thought but still ... I have my reasons). Also it is a totally materialistic approach.

During my first post on this site you mentioned that you had a genuine spiritual interest which brought you to BKs. I simply fail to understand how can someone who has some genuine experience fall into this 'trap' that everything can be explained by gene theory or sociology etc. That the origin of spiritual practices can simply be explained by geographical and linguistic studies (classical materialistic approach which, in its very beginning, denies the possibility of a metaphysical truth again that single sensory approach which is the very foundation of eastern faiths).

Even simple things like eating, drinking, walking etc are perceived as ways to enlightenment here traditionally. The difference in our approaches is very very large. No, I refuse to believe that the reason of mutual respect towards different Indic faiths has its origins in simply avoiding confrontation as here never wars were fought on a religious basis solely unlike in the West (Islam brought this here). It is very evident to me that this is something which the sociologists carry as a bias in their minds because of their Western background (avoiding bias is impossible as our rationality is dependent on inputs which we derieve from our surroundings, culture etc. Only an enlightened soul aka Buddha is free from biases, again an eastern concept;)). But,we can have our differences.

Sorry for being off topic. I did not even read your posts except the last few ones and was tired and going to sleep before I started writing gibberish here, but it is hard to get people willing to talk on serious matters these days as pretty much all my friends are interested only in selfies and girlfriends only and I don't blame them for it. If I were that 'fresh and innocent' I would be like them as well. Not even my parents get my point often. Talking about BKs is very easy as the similarities to a cult are striking. Start a different thread or whatever it is called and I will be there whenever I would get time and would be feeling less lazy.

Lots of love, bye.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post27 Aug 2016

"Hard science and soft science are colloquial terms used to compare scientific fields on the basis of perceived methodological rigor, exactitude, and objectivity.

Roughly speaking, the natural sciences are considered "hard", whereas the social sciences are usually described as "soft".

Wendy, I'd never heard of. Apparently she's an indologist rather than a sociologist and created a stink with the repressive Indian Right wingers the BKs suck up to due to the publishing of her recent book "The Hindus: An Alternative History", here and here.

I wonder how she would see the BKs?

Yes, we like to try and keep the information we present about the Brahma Kumaris ordered to some degree.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post30 Aug 2016

... totally a Western approach ...

Dear human being,

I think you are mistaking "sociology" for archeology, anthropology and paleontology. A science is essentially like mathematics, culturally neutral. India has produced many great astronomers, mathematicians and engineers, in times ancient, medieval and modern. They did not rely on spirituality, even if it informed other aspects of their lives.

Soft sciences like the four mentioned above still have a rigour that requires some basis in hard facts, and these sciences do not stand alone, they do cross reference to ‘harden up’ their interpretations of facts found.

Is biology a soft science?

A friend wrote the other day ”belief and disbelief are both forms of wishful thinking”. I mentioned how I really liked the succinctness of that phrase. He went on to explain to me (he is a scholar) that the the ”lief” part of the word ”belief” was the older English and germanic word for love. That is, if we believe something we have a love for it, regardless, and if we have disbelief, we do not love it, regardless, and that is why you cannot changes people’s beliefs with logic, science or facts.

Love is blind.
The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it. -George Bernard Shaw

Carl Sagan once said he was a physicist because he was not intelligent enough to be a biologist! Physics is the most straightforward of the sciences. It is used often to verify or disprove interpretations from ‘softer’ sciences. Even then, it has humility and is circumspect of its own limitations, unlike the lover/believer who sees no flaw in his beloved.
Science is the Belief in the Ignorance of Experts” — Richard Feynman

Don’t misunderstand this quote by one the great 20th century physicists. He is not saying scientists are ignorant. He is saying a good, expert scientist knows the limits of what he knows, does not presume any knowledge beyond the parameters upon which it is based. And because he is expert in knowing what he is ignorant of, he can then work to expand knowledge in that area.

Sociology does a similar thing. It does not accept that people and society are what we believe or have been taught based on subjective experience and anecdote, the way, for example, brahmanism does. It seeks a bigger schema by examining and analysing statistics and data, looking for patterns that can be altered through good public policy, e.g. the modern science of epidemiology and public health programs have ridded us of smallpox and polio, something not achieved in millennia of meditations, good wishes and brahmanic social structures that accepted ”karma” as the explanation for these diseases.

I think you do yourself and all people of the ‘east' (such a relative term in a spherical world!) a disrespect by saying rationality, logic, science, evidence based understanding is the province of the "westerner”.

It is the ego-desire to want to believe in higher order abstractions that prevents us realising what is in front of us or right under our arse, to not be grateful for what is. We do not want simple answers that deny ”us’’ what we desire. We refuse to listen when we are being told that the sexy girlfriend only wants our money.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post30 Aug 2016

At my age, I'll take a sexy girlfriend even if she just wants my money ... that's how wise I am. It'd be worth it. Although she'll not get much, the Brahma Kumaris got to me first.

Human, I guess you are relatively young. It's interesting to look at you and consider myself at a time when I fell vulnerable to the BKs and see similar tendencies, e.g. a tendency to make rash generalisations about vast subjects I did not know anything about.

I am not a "scientist soul", as the BKs would call it, and so I am limited to what I can add to the conversation except, "be humble", and "ask more questions than make grand statements".

In Jungian psychoanalysis they speak about two archetypes, the puer and senex (e.g. the pure hearted young man and the wise but often embittered old man). Neither are better than the other, neither are cleverer than the other, both can be imbalanced in their own way. But it was a conceptual view which helped me understand life a bit more when someone pointed it out as I was probably trapped in the "puer aeternus" ("eternal boy") stage.

Arguably, I would say it was encouraged by the BKs who encourage infantilisation within their followers.
Puer aeternus (sometimes shortened to puer) Latin for "eternal boy", in mythology, is a child-god who is forever young. In psychologically, it is an older man whose emotional life has remained at an adolescent level. The puer typically leads a provisional life, due to the fear of being caught in a situation from which it might not be possible to escape. He covets independence and freedom, opposes boundaries and limits, and tends to find any restriction intolerable.

Ask lots of questions to the lots of the right people, e.g. experts in those fields not cultists and gain lots of experiences, including the sexy boy/girlfriends. Open yourself up to as many experiences as possible. Get out there and live life for what it is.

Don't bother too much about theoretical things you cannot know or influence.

How are you and the BKs/BK fmaily members at the moment?
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post31 Aug 2016

At my age, I'll take a sexy girlfriend even if she just wants my money ... that's how wise I am. It'd be worth it. Although she'll not get much, the Brahma Kumaris got to me first.

In case any reader missed it, the warning about ”the sexy girlfriend who really wants your money” was a metaphor for groups like the BKs - And the seducible qualities of the ”puer” (who is also characterised by the need for a ”mother”).

Yes, they like you well enough, they will spend time with you, and the more you have to give them the more they will ‘allow' you. But, as many have found over the decades, they are "fairweather friends” who will expect you to change to suit them and give to them, whereas they will not do the same for you. Imagine too the overbearing mother who keeps her grown son under her psychological/emotional sway.

We need to be aware of genetic inheritance (nature) as much as ”nurture” conditioning (by parents, family, society) and what we have to do to find and establish our independence and maturity.
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Re: Reincarnation & ‘sanskaras' or genetic memory?

Post31 Aug 2016

Pink Panther wrote:In case any reader missed it, the warning about ”the sexy girlfriend who really wants your money” was a metaphor for groups like the BKs. And the seducible qualities of the ”puer” (who is also characterised by the need for as ”mother”).


At the time I got sucked into the BKs I was utterly naive to the thought that the BK leaders/centre-in-charges might be using their flirtie/gold digging sanskars to attract in supportive others, male and female, to work for them for free and finance their ambitions.

However, now I have to think it was an original component which has been institutionalised. Sanskars/genetic pre-dispositions run deep.

Is attracting and controlling not part of the female psyche? I think to a general tendency one would have to add a caste/culture element too, e.g. how do women of a caste not allowed an outside life make the best of life?

While I was a BK there was always those embarassing service situations where we could see generally some non-BK male was attracted to a BK female, and she would be attempting to reel him in but keep him at arms length from herself.

The attentions of a gentle, quiet, listening "spiritual" partner/mother who stares you straight in the eye can be very seductive.
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