Page 1 of 2

Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 02 Mar 2017
by ex-l
The BKs claim that 2,500 years ago, or 500 years before Christ (BC), they ruled a heaven on earth and that there are essentially ... and conveniently for them ... no written records of this highest of all civilisation because 2,500 years there was a breakdowning of their advanced nuclear powerstations (using technology currently unknown to humankind today) and other disasters that destroyed all evidence of their 300,000,000 strong civilisation.

Colloquially amongst themselves, they call this a "Mini-Destruction" ... named after the nuclear "Destruction" of this current civilisation that was supposed to have happened by now.

The whole of China, it's history, it's people, it's great rulers philosophers like Lao Tzu, Mo Tzu, Confucius and so on right the way down to Mao have basically never existed according to BKism ... despite it comprising of 20% of the world's population. They are just never refered to in "God's" teachings ... presumably because the BK guru Lekhraj Kirpalani, did not know anything about them.

Unfortunately, for the BKs China has a very long writen history going back as far as 1500 BC (1,000 years into the BKs Gold and Silver Aged heaven) that refers to a previous "Xia" dynasty confirmed by radiocarbon dating to go back to about 2070 BC and said to be the cradle of Chinese civilization. In 2011, Chinese archaeologists uncovered the remains of an imperial sized palace, dated to about 1700 BC ... or "1,000 BK" (the end of their so claimed Golden Age) ... at Erlitou in Henan. The earliest confirmed evidence of the Chinese script discovered is a body of inscriptions on oracle bones from the late Shang dynasty (c. 1200–1050 BC), markings on turtle shells carbon-dated to around 1500 BC and there have recently been discoveries of tortoise-shell carvings dating back to c. 6000 BC ... howeverm the "Peking Man" site at Zhoukoudian, for example, points to the existence of ancient societies as early as 11–18,000 BC. Longer ago than two to three of thre BKs' cycle of time.

"Impossible", according to the Brahma Kumaris God and students of their Godly Spiritual University, who habitually dismiss any radiocarbon or other scientific dating systems as unreliable ... despite knowing thining about them, or being able to prove their claims.

Well, OK. Let's put such system asides for one moment.

Much work has been done in recent years to establish historical claims on the basis of known and culculable astronomical events, e.g. 'Astronomical Dating and Statistical Analysis of Ancient Chinese Eclipse Data' by Kevin D. Pang, Kevin K. Yau, Hung-Hsiang Chou, made easiler by the discovery of 40,000s manuscripts, including the earliest known - and surprisingly accurate - star maps in a sealed cave in Dunhuang in northwest China. See also, here and here, 'Extraordinary floods in early Chinese history and their absolute dates' Pang, Kevin D, 'Recover dates from historical ganzhi records: A new method of Chinese astronomical chronology', by Li, Yong.
All 13 Shang dynasty oracle bone eclipse records have been uniquely matched to 6 solar and 7 lunar eclipses in the 14-12th centuries B.C. The King Zhong Kang 5th year autumnal (Oct. 16, 1876 B.C.) and King Yu 3rd year ”double sunset” (Sept. 24, 1912 B.C.) eclipses confirm the accuracy of the revised Bamboo Annals Xia dynasty chronology. The eclipse dates are plotted against the number of generations before 841 B.C. (earliest accurate date), the respective kings ruled.

The curve of benefit has both the strengths of verified royal genealogy — continuity — and eclipse dating — accuracy. It is 99% accurate, and can be confidently used as a foundation for building a detailed absolute chronology for the Xia, Shang and Zhou dynasties.

- (Song, Sci. Tech. Daily, May 17, 1996; Newsweek, July 7, 1997).

In another paper, 'Mozi and the Dates of Xia, Shang and Zhou' by DW Pankenier, a very rare planetary conjunction which has only happened 4 time in the last 5,000 years ... "the earliest and most impressive of only four such events in the past five thousand years" ... was able to confirm a date accurate to 1953 BC leaving "little room for doubt".

The event turned out to be accurate to within 36 years of what was previously thought to be a mythological event in the "Bamboo Annals" ... that is, the founding of the Xia dynasty.

The response from the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University ... the "highest" university according to them ... nothing.

"Don't think ... don't question ... say "Baba" 10,000 times a day" ... and it will all go away.
The Shoushi calendar and the calculation of the Zhong Kang solar eclipse. Authors: Li, Yong

The Zhong Kang solar eclipse mentioned in the "Yin Zheng" ("Punitive Expedition of Yin") in the Shang Shu, the Chinese book of historical documents, is known as the earliest one reported in the world. The date identification in the earlier Xia dynasty of this eclipse is puzzling.

Due to the Chinese historical astronomers' achievements in the calculations of the calendars and especially the eclipse counting method of the calendar of Shoushi the author identifies that according to Guo's eclipse calculations, the date converted to the Julian calendar is Oct. 13, 2128 BC.

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017
by GuptaRati 6666
There is for sure one grand cycle in which there are many smaller cycles. Just think of all of the bio-chemical and biophysical cycles, which enable a mammalian cell or human body to function. Then there are the internal clocks connected to DNA and RNA that are parts of the chronobiological apparatus of humans, animals, and plants. One possible reason for the BK not being able to time the grand cycle has much to do with our biological clocks and the way those clocks have enabled us to perceive and measure time during different phases of the grand cycle.

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017
by Pink Panther
Culturally, the Chinese are probably the most meticulous record keepers (as opposed to storytellers) amongst human civilisations. There are families today who live near the Great Wall built around 200 BC who tend to the burial sites of their ancestors who worked and died there and considered national heroes who have records of every generation back to and preceding that time, for example, which village that honoured ancestor had been born in before they went to work on the wall, often hundreds of kilometres away, and even who their parents and grandparents were!!

Confucius, nearly 500BC, was instrumental in training the mandarins for the civil service of China, having a sophisticated public service and record keeping system from even before that time.

Whereas in most of our societies we struggle to chase back timelines of geneology or events more than few generations, the Chinese have kept continuous records for personal, political and other reasons for millenia.

Many European ‘discoveries’ and inventions we learn about in school were known to the Chinese centuries before. Jospeh Needham was the ‘messenger” who helped us learn about what has been to us westerners a most ”inscrutable” alien culture. See his major work Science and Civilisation in China.

Or for a briefer ”pop” introduction to the man and his work there’s Bomb, Book and Compass: Joseph Needham and the Great Secrets of China. Simon Winchester Viking. 2008. HB 336p. £20.00 ISBN: 978-0670913787.
Joseph Needham, who died in 1995 aged 94, was the author of Science and Civilisation in China, which began as a proposal for a single book but has subsequently swelled to 24 volumes - only 17 of which were published during his lifetime.

It is considered among the greatest of academic achievements, the life's work of a man who had an equal enthusiasm for arcane mysticism as for science, art, engineering, philology and history.

Needham was a brilliant biochemist and sinologist who contributed more to our understanding of China than anyone before or since. But if he had not been a nudist, morris dancer, socialist and philanderer it is unlikely that he would have kept the attention of Simon Winchester's publishers.

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 03 Mar 2017
by ex-l
China's also pretty unique given that it used highly durable mediums such a bone to keep its records giving us far greater insights into the ancient past than societies which used wood based (or paper-like) materials.

I've found other similar archaeoastronomical dating techniques relating to ancient Egypt in the Nabta Playa, a large internally drained basin in the Nubian Desert.

An assembly of huge stone slabs found in Egypt’s Sahara Desert that date from about 6,500 years to 6,000 years ago has been confirmed by scientists to be the oldest known astronomical alignment of megaliths in the world.

This is a list of sites where claims for the use of archaeoastronomy for BKs to pick through, here. For example, the Puyang tomb in China, dates from about 4,00 to 5,000 BC depicting a mosaic of constellations.

So what is the response from Western and educated BKs? Silent denial or some "magical" refutation (with absolutely no supporting evidence), like "oh, the stars travelled in a different direction or at a different speed in the Golden Age". They cannot use an imagined "nuclear power station melt downs 2,500 years ago caused radiocarbon dating errors" excuse over the position of stars.

Now, add into the equation that some of these 'witnessed' star are 100s of light years away, e.g. Pole Star is 433.8 light years away means that they existed 100s of years beforehand in order for the light to travel from them.

According to Brahma Kumaris beliefs China, and certainly the Chinese, did not even exist at the time.

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 07 Mar 2017
by ex-l
The BKs generally dismiss radiocarbon dating as just all plain wrong ... because of a few anomalies that happened in the (long) past.

Interesting ... according to this paper, "The Astronomical Dating of a North Eastern African Stone Configuration" by G. Paul, University of Bonn, the astronomical dating confirms the radiocarbon dating exactly.

This is the way scientist work. They don't just use one method or imagine results ... they use a number to cross reference and confirm their findings until they are sure. In this case, plotting the position of stars over a 3,000 year period. They discovered only in a short period around 300BC did the stars align.

How much more evidence do we need to provide?

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 10 Mar 2017
by awareness_being
Hmm, this is pretty interesting, well after I realised that BKs are not the path of true SELF realisation or reaching a higher consciousness or a higher SELF. I do contemplate on this thing sometimes, the cyclic nature of time is actally a TRUTH, but this cycle has a very long duration, as Big Bang theory has predicated that if the universe can expand, it will definitely shrink back and get sucked up by a black hole. However, it's just a prediction.

My perspective is that everything has evolved, you know, like Darwin's theory of evolution, definitely the existence of humans is older than 5000 years, but I am really not sure the statistics about this cycle of time lesson has come from the consciousness of Bharma Baba or the pure consciousness of a supreme being. Because a supreme being won't be so perfect about statistics! A Human can!

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 10 Mar 2017
by ex-l
My theory was that the last incarnation of Krishna was said to be 5,000 years ago during the last Mahabharata when he spoke the Bhagavad Gita ... Lekhraj Kirpalani was Krishna and speaking the Bhagavad Gita during WWII which was the current Mahabharata, therefore the Kalpa was 5,000 years long.

Now the big issue is about conforming to them and accepting their authority, therefore 5,000 years is as good an identifying belief as any to make them stand out from other religions.

Believe it's 5,000 years ... be a BK.
Believe it's 6,000 years ... be a Christian.
Believe it's 4.32 billion years ... be a Hindu.

It's just like, and no more "deep", than putting on a football team uniform to become their supporter.

"If you want to be in our gang, you've got to wear our colours".

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2018
by Pink Panther ... Raja Yoga/9479940

A tiny signal, dating back to the birth of the first stars in our universe [13.4 billion years ago] has been detected by astronomers for the first time.
By Genelle Weule
Updated about an hour ago
First posted about 5 hours ago
1st March 2018

Key points

    *Astronomers detected a miniscule radio signal that indirectly indicates the presence of the earliest stars
    *The discovery was made using of a small antenna in a pristine, radio quiet area in Western Australia
    *While the frequency of the signal was predicted, scientists were surprised by the strength of the signal
    *The discovery has thrown up new mysteries for physicists around the properties of dark matter
    *They have picked up a radio signature produced just 180 million years after the Big Bang using a simple antenna in the West Australian outback.
The ground breaking discovery, reported today in the journal Nature, sheds light on a period of time known as the "cosmic dawn", when radiation from the first stars started to alter the primordial gas soup surrounding them.

Professor Bowman and colleagues have been hunting for a signal from the early universe for more than a decade through the EDGES project — short for Experiment to Detect the Global Epoch of Reionisation Signature.

"It's challenging because the total amount of radio waves we receive on Earth from outer space is dominated by all the noise our galaxy makes."

The signal they've been looking for is a miniscule fraction — between 0.1 and 0.01 per cent — of the radio noise from the sky.

"It's like trying to hear a whisper from the other side of a roaring football stadium," Professor Bowman said.

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 01 Mar 2018
by Pink Panther
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?” - Sir John Maynard Keynes

Full details at ... happening/

27 Feb , 2018
by Matt Williams
In the 1920s, Edwin Hubble made the groundbreaking revelation that the Universe was in a state of expansion. Originally predicted as a consequence of Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity, this confirmation led to what came to be known as Hubble’s Constant. In the ensuring decades, and thanks to the deployment of next-generation telescopes – like the aptly-named Hubble Space Telescope (HST) – scientists have been forced to revise this law...

These latest results therefore suggest that some previously unknown force or some new physics might be at work in the Universe. In terms of explanations, Reiss and his team have offered three possibilities, all of which have to do with the 95% of the Universe that we cannot see (i.e. dark matter and dark energy).

In 2011, Reiss and two other scientists were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics for their 1998 discovery that the Universe was in an accelerated rate of expansion.

Consistent with that, they suggest that Dark Energy could be pushing galaxies apart with increasing strength. Another possibility is that there is an undiscovered subatomic particle out there that is similar to a neutrino, but interacts with normal matter by gravity instead of subatomic forces. These “sterile neutrinos” would travel at close to the speed of light and could collectively be known as “dark radiation”.

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 25 Apr 2018
by Mattheus
Immanuel Velikovsky "Worlds in Collision" disproves BK God's view of history.

Immanuel Velikovsky proposed in his 1950's book "Worlds in Collision" that many myths and traditions of ancient peoples and cultures are based on actual events: worldwide global catastrophes of a celestial origin, which had a profound effect on the lives, beliefs and writings of early mankind. This is a documentary about Immanuel Velikovsky's discoveries by Henry Zemel. First telecast on February 22, 1972 by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

Thom -the Anunnaki came over 400,000 years ago. Gobekii Tepe a mere 12,500 as you say. An awful lot happened in between. I am still researching -not preaching -trying to get my brain wrapped around the fact ( as I see it ) that our ancestors were genetically modified/created. There's no way we were descended from the ape. 48 chromosomes jump to 46 chromosomes - is not the work of evolution !!! It's a Lab job !

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018
by Pink Panther

Although the scientific method is not perfect, it is pretty damn good at safely preventing endless speculations about endless possibilities and providing a solid foundation to build on.

Whether its Velikovsky’s hypotheses - which in the end when examined are ”possible” but not proven, or reincarnation, or UFOs.... a hypothesis firstly needs a verifiable premise or two, then it needs to be disprovable otherwise there is no way to test it, it is no more nor less likely to be true than any other hypothesis.

The more solid the Hypothesis (literally means hypo- under, thesis - a position i.e. in idiomatic English, it's an under-standing) then the better working model or theory we can use for matters that are never going to be provable

For example, the Theory of Evolution based on natural selection - it makes sense logically based on observable evidence but can never be absolutely proven nor disproven, hence it remains, ins scientific terminology, a theory - literally, a view.

The Theory which is adopted by science is the one that covers the most bases with the least number of incongrueties and is yet to have been disproven by any direct contradictory evidence.

I like to use the example of the murder mystery; where much of the evidence points to a particular suspect but all the suspect needs is one solid proof that it could not have been them and that cancels all the other evidence as far as they are concerned. They have an alibi - Latin - elsewhere, Gk - absent, missing. Rather, the other evidence is still valid, the data is the same, the interpretation of it now needs to be reconsidered.

The less solid the premises (Literally - proposition, something put forward) of a hypothesis, it can still be possible but less probable. We apply Okham’s Razor (the simplest explanation is most likely to be the truth).

And for me, it becomes about relevance and what it does. OK, exercising imagination and curiosity are valuable human gifts, but there's a point where that's getting in the way of The Necessary, as Nietzsche would put it. (I once told someone that for me, the two gods that rule my universe are Necessity and Probability.)

The basic philosophy of science and the scientific method is that things can be proven, but that all proofs are qualified - defined by the criteria and circumstances of the proof - at this time, under these conditions, with these factors included and thse ones not included etc.

Nothing can be proven absolutely, the only absolute that is possible in science is that which absolutely disproves something.

Until some proposition can be absolutely disproven, it remains a possibility. And they’re endless.

As long as Unidentified Flying Objects remain Unidentified, well, they may be from another planet, possibly.

As long as someone “remembers” something that may be from a past life, as long as it can’t be proven as 'absolutely not’ being from a previous life, it still may possibly be - the possibility stays open. Here’s the rub - even if someone did live a previous life, there is no guarantee of a next one. So don’t let this life pass you by. And, does it pay the rent next week?

My point in summary is this - there is enough in life we can be sure of and which is imperative to our well being that to get overly caught up in exploring all the possibilities and conjectures is counter-productive, it takes us away from the foundations of our present being, looking at the greener grass on the other side, a carrot dangling on the stick aheads of the donkey. We mislead ourselves or get misled by others exploiting our wishful thinking

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018
by ex-l
Mattheus wrote:Immanuel Velikovsky "Worlds in Collision" disproves BK God's view of history.

Does the BK God's view of history need disproving?

Has it been proved yet? Have the BKs offered any evidence to support it, or address the anomalies ... ever?

I read up a bit on Velikovsky. He was a doctor who went into psychiatry and psychoanalysis. He simply did not have the education or qualifications to "prove" his theories.

I think the key to understanding him is to start with his religion, a Jew and a fervert Zionist. His theories were, in essence, bent around fitting Jewish myths in order to support Zionist project.

How far have your explored the criticisms of his work? Do you think they are fair or accurate?

In a sense, he's another good case - like Lekhraj Kirpalani - of a clearly intelligent person ... who lost their frame of reference and abstracted themselves from reality.

The questions I would like to ask you are;

What advantage does it have for you, investing yourself in his unprovable theories or fantasies, instead of Lekhraj Kirpalani's?


What difference or advantage does it have for you and your practical life since leaving the BKs?

is not it just an expression of the same kind of tendency?

Thank you.

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 27 Apr 2018
by GuptaRati 6666

I agree with you about proofs. The scientists who usually formulate or derive proofs are the abstract scientists, the mathematicians. The natural scientists usually develop and test hypotheses by conducting experiments. The data from the experiments can validate a hypothesis or invalidate a hypothesis.


the fantasies or unproven theories should be categorized as hypotheses, which cannot be tested by experimentation.

Battle of the Anunnaki/Pleiadian gods !!!

PostPosted: 27 Apr 2018
by Mattheus
Battle of the Anunnaki/Pleiadian gods !!!

The Rothschild, the royal family, the Rockefeller and other disgusting reptilians, have controlled our life to destruction since the beginning of times. is not it so ?

Re: Astronomical dating disproves BK God's view of history

PostPosted: 27 Apr 2018
by ex-l
GuptaRati 6666 wrote:Ex-I,

the fantasies or unproven theories should be categorized as hypotheses, which cannot be tested by experimentation.

Don't "hypotheses" require some grounding in reality?

How does science decide what is in the "orbit" of theoretical science, and what is way out in space?

Throughout history there are have been a number of cases such as Velikovsky's ... from Bessler to Fleischmann-Pons ... that raise questions not just about science, but the sociology of science, all of which have become strangely addictive to "believers".

I think what's more important about the Velikovsky case is to understand why his theories and methodology failed, starting with understanding what motivated them.

Not having a particularly 'hard science' brain, these are the elements that I can graps and what interest, not so much the science, but also the history of science and the relationship between science and the popular mind.

Velikovsky is a pecular case but someone who, for me, prostituted his intelligence into creating a pseudo-science rather than applying to uncovering knowledge and evidence. What again, for me, marks him down was that he was trained as a psychologist/psychoanalysist and so, therefore, should have been more aware of his confirmation bias.

However, having said that, I think he probably was aware but still doing anyone for whatever reason, for the money, the attention, for the Zionist State ... at least sub-consciously, he sort of wanted to make more real Biblical myths and Jewish legends. Or, perhaps, it might have been an entirely conscious strategy, marketed to American population. I don't know ...

But it's all just a little too unreal for me, and not related to BKism.