Are the BKs Knocking On The Devil's Door?

I don't know how old this forum is now. But have you revealed what actually running the BKs? Who is so called God Shiva which BKs are selling out to the people? What findings do we have by now? Why not still BKs are exposed?

It was started in 2006 and there was another more secretive/contemptative forum before that for a few years, so 16 to 20 years. It's hard to tell how much of an influence it has had because many people read it but never comment, and information we have found, and ideas we have created, have spread mimetically. For some people, it has changed them a lot, even saved them.

Paradoxically, even the BKs have take information and ideas we have brought to light and used/changed them to their benefit. I don't have any connections with the BKs now, so I don't know what is going on inside them any more.

I think the problem is, religion provides for people structures and purposes they need or want - whether it is a sense of community, ego aggrandisement, comforts and privileges - even if it is total falsehood; and it is often less abusive than the prior experiences of the individual. Meaning that it might be bad, but it is less bad than the only alternative they knew. Then it just becomes an unanswerable general complaint about why human is so endlessly criminal, destructive, abusive, dishonest etc.

You're right, we don't know who or what the BK "god spirit" is - the big missing key we don't have is who was the saddhu Lekhraj Kirpalani went to see and paid for an initiation - but we've accumulated a LOT of example about how it and those it empowers act, and the effects of it, to paint a picture of its nature.

BKism offers people a very simplistic 2 to 3 year plan or purpose to their lives, a mental framework for them to work within (i.e. 2 to 3 years until Destruction, earn your fortune for 5,000 years by giving everything to them!). Life is a little tougher without that. One is left facing the great unknown.

You're right, we really don't have answers and I think that is part of the experience of being an ex-cultist. It's not just BKism that has crumbled, it's all religions and faiths that you see through now. Even the act of "being religious". I think that some of the reasons why some ex-es go back to the BKs on a part-time basis even if they don't believe, e.g. just for the company, a little light ritual, to slip into dream again.

I think they will soon fizzle out in a couple of decades. People are beginning to see through the lies and deceptions thanks to decentralized sources of information

I don’t think so. BKs are learning from the critics and changing their system with time. They shamelessly strike off their own sayings of the past and give a bluff smile on the questioners. I recently posted some BK Suraj’s classes clips in which he had clearly mentioned the dates of destruction, to which they responded in very rude manner.

In India, it is easy to run a business on Godly beliefs. They do not mind at all if you leave even after 20-30-40 years. They always get good mob of new adherents to run their business.

The best way forward would be to never look back at it again until you have healed at least and then do your bit to help and prevent other victims from falling into their trap but only to the extent that your old nightmares won't start coming to haunt you.

Doing the same. But it is strange that you were told it's Godly path, you followed it, contributed for establishment of vice less world, will eventually haunt you.

A person can be a fraud while also being sincere. In their own mind they may genuinely believe they are the chosen vehicle or the one who has had a divine revelation they must share, whatever, but that sincerity doesn't make it true.

Very True. A sincere BK who completely following Shrimat and doing seva by tan, man, dhan is consequently doing more fraud than a periphery one.

You're right, we don't know who or what the BK "god spirit" is - the big missing key we don't have is who was the saddhu Lekhraj Kirpalani went to see and paid for an initiation - but we've accumulated a LOT of example about how it and those it empowers act, and the effects of it, to paint a picture of its nature.

How he (Lekhraj) become so successful in brainwashing thousands of people so fast. Now, also they are spreading in the name of seva and social service. Who is behind it all? Is the so called spirit still active through them? What ultimately do they want to achieve? What is their ultimate agenda other than destroying lives of individuals? Many are saying that it's some plan of anti-Hinduism activists who trying to destroy Hinduism by making them child-less and hence can stop the further growth of Hindu population in India. Your insight please.

How did he (Lekhraj) become so successful in brainwashing thousands of people so fast. Now, also they are spreading in the name of seva and social service. Who is behind it all? ... What is their ultimate agenda other than destroying lives of individuals? Many are saying that it's some plan of anti-Hinduism activists who trying to destroy Hinduism by making them child-less and hence can stop the further growth of Hindu population in India. Your insight please.

Firstly, the funny thing is, Lekhraj Kirpalani wasn't successful in "brainwashing thousands of people" during his life. I don't know how many BKs there were in 1969 when he died but all the way through the 1950s and early 1960s, there were only a dwindling number of followers the original group from Hyderabad and Karachi who were there because he supported them financially. It went from a few hundred people to tens of mostly older, dependent women who ate through his wealth, their wealth, and the wealth of a few supporters, until the money finally ran out, and some of them were sent out to fleece the primarily Sindhi community and then Hindus, of more money to support their lifestyle.*

We essentially have two opposing views here; one that accepts a spiritualistic/psychic worldview of spirits and possession, and one that suggests it is all just down to archetypal human psychology and collective energy. I tend to accommodate both and look closely at the dynamics within history of Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Om Mandli, and see how it has just expanded as the organisation has grown.

Part of that is, as you point out, a sort of anti-Hindu sentiment. On one hand jealous of the position of priests and Brahmins while being utterly dependent on them for words, ideas and structures; on the other hand utterly critical and contemptuous of them and full of his/their own self-importance. I see that as an expansion of Lekhraj Kirpalani's relationship with Saddhu Vaswani and the Bhaibund; Vaswani personifying a sort of pure ideal of Hinduism, and the Bhaibund as the traditional Hindu community upon which they prey for money and labour.

I see that as some kind of archetypal/psychological model or group energy that has just evolved and expanded over time and would reject any idea that there is a specific conspiracy behind BKism.

So the mystery then is how they expanded AFTER Lekhraj Kirpalani's death through the use of their hypnotism and mediumship.

Many will reject the idea of spirit mediumship, spirit channelling etc but I would suggest accepting the model of how it is supposed to work (however it works) as a way of understanding the manipulation of people using psychic influences ON TOP OF group influences. I think both happen.

Long ago, on this forum and the one that came before it, member discussed the idea of "the egregore", a non-personal group spirit that can possess people and sweep them along, that increases in power and influence the more people engage with it. I think that's a good model to start with. But, yes, I think there are individual "spirits" within it, whipping it up and directing it.

Now, again, other people might just argue that those "spirits" are just subconscious parts of real individuals and, again, I would say those ALSO exist within BKism. I am not qualified to speak in depth about psychology and the subconscious but, obviously, we all have a little grasp of its theories about how humans are driven by subconscious desires and have [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)"]a "shadow" element[/url].

At the deepest level of the shadow, we find manifestations of evil so the questions arises, is the evil of the BKs individual, collective (based on the collective suppression and manipulation of the following who are forced into the unnatural 'box' or archetypal model created through the Om Mandli experience, or supernatural? Again, I'd say all 3 and that we shouldn't dismiss any of them, nor force an explanation of BKism as an expression of just one.

You ask,

Is the so called spirit still active through them? What ultimately do they want to achieve?

Ultimately, I think we have to accept "yes", and that 'it' or 'their' agenda is to kill of all humanity and the world as we know it, damaging the natural environment as much as possible. I think we have to take BKism and its god at face value and believe what it taught and ingrained into the minds of its leaders for decades. It wants to destroy.

Therefore, unless you see the destruction and death of humanity as a good thing, it or their 'spirit' is part of the greatest darkness or evil the world has ever known and all consuming as it pursues its aim, "to inspire the Yadavs to use the nuclear weapons to wipe humanity out". Remember, the way the BKs taught it was that Destruction, the final act of setting off the nuclear arsenal, was an act of mercy. A act of mutual suicide to release a suffering humanity.

Now accepting that is the core ethos of the BKs, the end to which all of their lies, manipulation and acquisitions are leading to, one still has to ask, how much of it is real and in anyway likely ... and how much of it is just a kind of turbo-charge and exaggerated version, of the infantile rage at the world that Lekhraj Kirpalani? A "rage at the world" that Lekhraj Kirpalani had for rejecting him as their god Krishna, the "world" which, at that time, was merely the Hyderabad Sindhi community?

Infantile rage is again something psychologist explore a lot.

Therefore, in summary, to understand what the BKs and BKism is about, I think you have to start with a rough knowledge of their history, then go back further do a psychoanalysis of Lekhraj Kirpalani's mental illness and social problems, THEN add on top any theories about group or individual spiritual influences because BKism is at least part a repetative acting out or dramatisation of the Om Mandli experience.

As to the "devils" that are devilling within it all, I cannot see them as good at all. Anything good within the BKs has been begged, borrowed or stolen from outside, and then stuck on like bandages to create an appearance of good that serves their financial and egotistical interests ... and ultimate agenda.

The "conspiracy" behind BKism is that the idiot leaders still believe that they are going to destroy humanity and the world and their commitment towards that end is largely based on it being ... the only way out of the mental box they have created to trap themselves. As in they cannot leave because it would mean they have no money and would lose all face that they have.

* (I forget the precise details of the history now, e.g. numbers, but it is all recorded on this site).

A much shorter afterthought.

At the end of the day, either you are God or you are not. And if you are not God, but are lying about being God, then surely doesn't that count among the greatest lies or evils?

Very good long form answer there ex-l.

People create their gods and their societies in their own image. But they aren't completely original. We only understand new things in relation to what we already understand, so any "successful" new religious idea or group will be a variation on an already understood theme. I think most here can see that BKism is a variation of the religious themes and models that already existed in response to the eternal big ones - life and death, purpose, meaning, who am I, why are things the way they are, what can we do about ourselves or our world ? etc.

Theme originally meant "proposition"- so whatever idea which a narrative is built up from is its theme. With universal thremes, if one narrative is more attractive, I.E. if itresonates better with the "need" of the audience better than another narrative, it gains a bigger, more appreciative audience.

But how many people question the theme, the proposition?
Are these themes or questions valid? Are there real answers or is any answer to such questions simply a placebo? Can any narrative that resonates for us be "our truth" or is it keeping us from a deeper truth?

Ray Bradbury

Most BKs relate mentally to what BKism offers based on something they're already a bit familiar with, and for a very few,, it may be the "feeling" they enjoy which is enough to buy into the whole package.

Its one thing to appreciate a theme or a proposition while suspending disbelief to go along with the narrative. It is enjoyable to become part of the story - to enjoy is to enjoin, to feel connected, joyful in that feeling.

As the narrative winds its way down the decades, those who've subscribed to the storyline, like a soap opera audience or a fan club, will choose accept the impossible because to reject it will break the spell by which they've been enchanted. If that happens, they'll need to think for themselves, find their own sources of joy, purpose, meaning, navigate a new road. That's not as easy as just continuing.

Given the scriptwriters have learnt how to edit and revise, rewrite and re-present the same story in different ways, they keep enough of their subscribers and grow their audience, pull in sponsors etc.

To explain how what happened in Episode 256 doesn't really invalidate today's episode, often all it takes is a cheap scriptwriter's device. Don't you remember? Character X in Ep 297 can say "I lied because you cannot handle the truth" so it really did not happen. Let's not spoil the fun, continue eating your popcorn.

I know a number of intelligent BKs who operate on the principle that the BK narrative is no worse than others so why not go along with that? Its not very different to "aspirational" middle class going along with the system in place because it may bring them to a place of even more privilege, despite what it means for others

How he (Lekhraj) become so successful in brainwashing thousands of people so fast. Now, also they are spreading in the name of seva and social service. Who is behind it all? Is the so called spirit still active through them? What ultimately do they want to achieve? What is their ultimate agenda other than destroying lives of individuals? Many are saying that it's some plan of anti-Hinduism activists who trying to destroy Hinduism by making them child-less and hence can stop the further growth of Hindu population in India. Your insight please

I will try to restrict my answer to 'spirit world' and that dimension only and will present my opinion which has been formed by some personal experiences coupled with a few guesses.

How he (Lekhraj) become so successful in brainwashing thousands of people so fast

This is not possible without a powerful spirit being channeled through him. Period. This may have happened either willingly or unwillingly on his part. I think that this could not have happened if he had not wanted it at all (there are ways to make a spirit go away if it is forcefully entering your life) so a part of him always wanted to play God.

If what ex-l has said that he went to some tantrik in Bengal region of India is true, it is quite possible that someone may have seen this desire in him and given him this power to connect to a spirit which was 'Satoguni' in nature (there are 3 'gunas' or natures/paths in tantra/Yoga/Bhakti or life in general; sat, raja, tam. Just google it). See we have this notion that if someone is 'good' he will be truthful too. I also had this illusion but this does not apply to real world, nor to spirits.

It is the same delusion which makes the 'Vaishnava' sect in Hinduism, which is totally satvik (ISKON is one such example), look down upon other sects like 'shaktas', tantra etc. What I have learned is you can realize truth based on whatever path is suitable to your true nature. Darkness is as important as light for creation to happen and both have equally important significance.

You can realize the ultimate by walking a 'Tamoguni' path and you may be totally devoid of truth and realization while having a lot of 'Satoguna' inside of you. It is this satoguna which convinces the Brahmakumaris that they are the 'purest of pure' and their ghost spirit is the only true divine God. That's why God in Hinduism is called 'Gunateet', i.e one who transends all gunas. Therefore, any entity that possesses gunas, no matter how pure it may seem, cannot be God.

Coming back to the topic, see what happens is (it's also mentioned in bhagavat Gita) when you accept a spirit like that as your 'divine Father', Guru or any other personal relation, some part of its 'tattva' comes inside of you. It may feel like blissfulness, love etc but it is not your own, it is given to you by a different being with whom you are forming a bond. True 'initiation' works on the same principle. You are in a 'karmik bondage' of your own 'karmas'. So a true guru takes a part of it on himself and gives you a 'spark of light', for lack of a better word, from his own karmik account and then it is upto you to make a fire out of it or let it fizzle out.

That's why most powerful gurus often end up with terrible diseases sometimes. But this process cannot continue forever, i.e. no matter how powerful the original source of any spiritual tradition is, he/she cannot take infinite amount of karma on him.

So, in the beginning of any tradition, some people will be quite similar in their spiritual acumen to the original founder, though no one could surpass him/her, the more people are added to that chain, the more diluted will be the effects of that spiritual source. This dilution also happens with time, i.e. more the time passes, the spiritual core of any parampara becomes weak.

The BK godspirit is clever in this regard as it makes you feel good but does not take away your karmas, e.g if you are supposed to have cancer at a certain age, it will let it happen. In this way, it preserves itself from getting bogged down and loose its power rapidly. It just claims to have protected its followers whenever its their luck that works out in their favour and blames it on their karmas when it does not.

So why is it doing so? It is because when you will die, since you have taken a lot of "sakash'/nourishment from it. You become indebted to it and whether you like it or not you will have to become its minion (praja ) and do its bidding until the time does not come for it to take birth in physical plane in human flesh and blood and you cannot be freed from this bondage for a very, very long time. So the more followers it gathers ... you get the idea.

You might have seen a lot of BKs complaining that the quality of souls coming is degrading etc. It is the other way round I believe, i.e. their 'BapDada' is getting diluted. Though in general people are becoming shallower by the day in my opinion but thats not the point here. That's why I said to overlook the followers that they are gathering. Once their core becomes dead, they will fizzle out because their is no substance to them apart from this.

I would have shared my views on a few other things but India is playing New Zealand and I just cannot miss the match. Sorry mate. Hope that was not too strange a viewpoint for you.

If what ex-l has said that he went to some tantrik in Bengal region of India is true, it is quite possible that someone may have seen this desire in him and given him this power to connect to a spirit which was 'Satoguni' in nature (there are 3 'gunas' or natures/paths in tantra/Yoga/Bhakti or life in general; sat, raja, tam. Just google it). See we have this notion that if someone is 'good' he will be truthful too. I also had this illusion but this does not apply to real world, nor to spirits.

Just a quick response to this point. Yes, the account of Lekhraj Kirpalani going to a saddhu or, as you perhaps more accurately call it, a tantrik in Bengal is references in many places. It used to be in the Murlis, although it has probably been edited out by the BKs now. It is in the Om Mandli books published in the 1940s. It was also confirmed to me in person by old Sindhis who were alive at the time of it happening.

Short version, he went to someone and paid a considerable fortune, the equivalent of $10,000s of dollars, to have some kind of undocumented initiation, and when he came back he was the changed man we know about, who also, strangely for a businessman, adopted the habit of wearing kohl eyeshadow (which you see in old photos, and the BKs play acted by painting Gulzar with it also). It was after this that the intense hypnotic seances started with the Bhaibund women falling into trace, being possessed by spirits claiming to be Krishna or deities etc, dancing Rasa around him, and so on.

The elderly non-BK Sindhi also confirmed that the early seances were anything but "Om Shanti", i.e. that they were not peaceful but involved the women having quite powerful reactions.

In both BK and non-BK historical accounts, and again there were references to the eye shadow (I forget the Hindi word for it), so this may be a clue as to which tradition or siddhi the tantrik came from, as it was considered to be magical. I've heard of such stuff but not this specific occurence and, hence, cannot identify it.

Remember also that there was ZERO awareness of there being a second being or god inside Lekhraj Kirpalani until 1955 or 56. It was never spoken about. Lekhraj Kirpalani was God to them.

From my background, the fact that Lekhraj Kirpalani PAID for the initiation, that the guru took money for the transaction, would be a simple enough element to crash any question of it being a pure spirit, or pure tradition. It would be considered a lower/dubious spirit and tradition.

We're talking about "just another charismatic" cult leader with conscious and unconscious motives. I think the unconscious motives are what give the aura of sincerity and potent energy to such people because these come from a deeper place.

But once the train of events is in motion, it takes a lot of conscious choices to keep it moving over long distances.

...who also, strangely for a businessman, adopted the habit of wearing kohl eyeshadow (which you see in old photos, and the BKs play acted by painting Gulzar with it also). It was after this that the intense hypnotic seances started with the Bhaibund women falling into trace, being possessed by spirits claiming to be Krishna or deities etc, dancing Rasa around him, and so on.

Not meant for everyone

Wow, that was new. If that is true, chances are he went to a Muslim 'pir'. I used to think all the references to 'farishta'/angels etc were added due to Christian influences but this would explain all the occult influence of this cult including why BKs almost never criticize Islam like they do other religions and their Allah-like 'Shiv Baba'. I have heard of various people (I have little personal experience of this) who suffered at the hands of spirits pretending to be Hindu devis/devatas while in reality they were 'jinns' sent by islamic occult practitioners. But I guess we will never know the reality as there are too many unknown variables.

When we leave our bodies, our belief systems stick to our subtle bodies and we sort of go to the auto-pilot mode after that. Upto this point I am sure, but what happens after this I do not have the foresight to tell. In theory such beings behave the same way as they did while they were alive so Hindus will experience reality as per their belief systems, Muslims as per their own etc. So while a spirit which has Islamic background can take oaths and do all kind of unethical stuff (as per Hinduism) but won't feel any guilt in doing so because it or the human/occultist governing it never believed in that code of ethics in first place.

Well, what happens to the atheists, you might wonder. To that I would say that everyone has a certain belief system in some birth or the other and once this boundary of this body and flesh vanishes after what we call death, we are a sum total of all the experiences/memories that we have had in all the life times before us, a continuous stream of consciousness you might say. So they mingle with the stream of consciousness they associate themselves within their sub conscious.

Wow, that was new. If that is true, chances are he went to a Muslim 'pir'. I used to think all the references to 'farishta'/angels etc were added due to Christian influences but this would explain all the occult influence of this cult including why BKs almost never criticize Islam like they do other religions and their Allah-like 'Shiv Baba'. I have heard of various people (I have little personal experience of this) who suffered at the hands of spirits pretending to be Hindu devis/devatas while in reality they were 'jinns' sent by islamic occult practitioners. But I guess we will never know the reality as there are too many unknown variables.

That's an interesting perspective and you may well be right. It might even explain the BKs' god spirit's lack of knowledge of Hindu scripture, and it's dependence on Lekhraj Kirpalani's rather basic knowledge of it.

You're writing about some kind of Sufi mystic? There are a lot of other correlations to support that, e.g. the widespread use of 'the Beloved', Sufi influences in the Sind, the PBKs' criticism of the BKs as being "Islamic" (e.g. "traffic control" meditations being like Muslims' 5 times a day prayers), and so on. There are many references in the old, unedited Murlis that are sufi-like as is, as you say, the Allah-like god.

That could be an angle to explore more. Yes, I'd say the BK god spirit was more of a Jinn-like creature. Follow the link above to the text of an original 1940s book about the Om Mandli. We have a copy of the original.

I am reading up about Pirism in Bengal at the moment and, as an introduction, offer one summary from the Wikipedia. See also Pirism.

Already we see elements that could translate into influences into BKism.

Satya Pir

Satya Pir (Bengali: সত্যপীর) is a belief system found in Bengal created by the fusion of Islam and local religions. Experts maintain that the Muslim Satya Pir and the Hindu Satyanarayan Puja essentially represent the same beliefs and rituals. A century ago in Bengal, the ritual called, pujah was mainly performed by Hindu women and was interchangeably called Satya pir Pujah or Satya Narayan pujah.

According to the author ... Pir and Narayan [became] associated. In one theory, he proposes that Brahmins during the Islamic era in Bengal changed Narayan into Pir in order for the Muslims to believe that they were worshipping an Islamic saint. The other theory says the worship started as that of a Muslim saint or Pir and later the Pir was changed into Narayan.

Narayan is, of course, a title Lekhraj Kirpalani took for himself, e.g. "Nar becomes Narayan".

In folklores, Narayan and Pir [become] mixed such as one supplicant will address him as Satya Narayana, implying that he is an avatar of Krishna, while another one in a different tale will be told that Satya Pir has just come from Mecca, which would make him Muslim.

The Sufi principles and practices of Bangladesh are completely traced to the Quran and the Hadith ... concepts of nafs (self), zikr (remembrance), ibadat (prayer), morakaba (meditation), miraj (ascension), tajalli (divine illumination), faqr (spiritual poverty), tawhid (Unity of God), fana (annihilation) and baqa (subsistence) are all the basic sources of Sufism.

The tradition of Islamic mysticism known as Sufism appeared very early in Islam and became essentially a popular movement emphasizing worship out of a love of Allah rather than fear. Sufism stresses a direct, unstructured, personal devotion to Allah in place of the ritualistic, outward observance of the faith and "a Sufi aims to attain spiritual union with God through love". An important belief in the Sufi tradition is that the average believer may use spiritual guides in his pursuit of the truth.

There is another article about

The Ojha Shamans And Sufi Faquirs of Bangladesh.

In Bangladesh people are not associated with the term shamanism. They have understanding about ‘ojha’, ‘gunin’ ‘yogi’ ‘tantrik’ or ‘kapalik’ ‘faquir’ or ‘peer’ and ‘ mullah’, ‘guru’ ... a kind of occultism in which black magic and white magic are used for benevolent or malevolent purposes. It includes witchcraft as a kind of secret or hidden practice which is undertaken by practitioners, such as ojha or Faquir Bangladesh who has hold over the supernatural elements, Witchcraft is a kind of magic and the users are in a position to perceive and interact with a spirit world and ‘channel these transcendental energies into this world’.

He or She while being involved in some kind of ritualistic practices, as of trance, has an easy access to the spirit world and acquires power to influence the spirits for benevolent or malevolent cause.

... they are believed to have supernatural power they also are found involved in practices of spirit possession. They may be either from Hindu or Muslim community.

The word Faquir refers to Muslim mystics, belonging to Sufi cult. They are specialized in spirit possession. Among the Hindu Vaishnava, there are mystic practitioners who are also engaged in spirit possession and faith healing.

The shaman can “see “the spirit and he himself occasionally behaves like a spirit. He can leave his body in a trance and travel in ecstasy in all cosmic regions. He recognizes various diseases through mystical insight or with the help of his " pet-spirits " who are at his disposal, and he is capable of curing these diseases with his healing techniques. Although he has a number of auxiliary spirits at his disposal, he is not possessed by them.

You're writing about some kind of Sufi mystic?

Mystic is too lofty a word for these rascals (excuse my language). Just because a person has psychic abilities and is able to access spirits it does not mean he/she becomes spiritually elevated.

the PBKs' criticism of the BKs as being "Islamic"

Never new about that, nor do I care much. PBKs are a cheap copy of this cult whose leader is a proven criminal who just wanna replace himself with Lekhraj. Too many crimes have been committed by them for anyone to take them or few other copycat groups like that to take them seriously.

Look, I tried to skim through the articles you highlighted but couldn't do it. They are so full of outright bullsh** (again sorry for language) and historical whitewashing that I felt I would puke in disgust. Suffice to say that Islam is the mother of all cults. This is a very specific forum which focuses on BKs, so I won't go into details or point by point rebuttals.

There is a reason why I never delved into the theory of Islamic occult practices and one is this dishonesty to even admit that Muslims, at least in the subcontinent, indulge in it in to a far greater number than any other religion. To present Sufism as if it's some benevolent thing ... even their most popular 'Sufi saints' have helped invaders who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people in India, just because they were 'kaffirs'. And by help I mean they literally used all their occult abilities at their disposal to dismantle Hindu/Budhhist centers of faith.

Sorry, I guess I am not right frame of mind to logically put forth my argument or any argument for time being. Know this that I have some terrible experiences at the hands of such 'tantriks' belonging to, most likely, 'Allah school of thought' from childhood to adulthood, and everything is just swimming in my head right now. It will take a couple of days to get things under control and this may well be my last post on this thread if not on this forum.

PS: Don't trust anything about this topic you will read on the internet because most of the people have no clue of what they are writing about and those who have seldom tell the truth. Reality of these things at the experiential level makes all this intellectual stuff seem like a cruel joke.

Mystic is too lofty a word for these rascals (excuse my language). Just because a person has psychic abilities and is able to access spirits it does not mean he/she becomes spiritually elevated.

There is another saying relative to spirits, I think it was from a Dzogchen Buddhist ...

"Just because someone is dead, doesn't mean they are enlightened".

I'd agree that it's fair to say that the version of Sufidom that has been sold to the West has been whitewashed and romanticised but, at the same time, Sufism in India appears to be a mishmash of Islam and Hindu/Indigenous shamanism.

And, yes, you are right I don't know very much about them. Spiritualism in the West has largely been woven into a Christian framework ... at least after they burned a few 100,000 witches.

I would be interested in exploring this area with an expert to try and identify who it was Lekhraj Kirpalani went to see.

I think it's the key to understanding the Brahma Kumaris. I don't suppose such "rascals" keep good records of who they initiated, but someone might recognize the signs we have so far, i.e. which 'school' or lineage of rascals it might have been.

At the end of the day, either you are God or you are not. And if you are not God, but are lying about being God, then surely doesn't that count among the greatest lies or evils?

These golden lines summarize the full concept of BKism. Yes, in the name of God, BKs trying to make any damn thing swallow their naive followers. Many are damaged, destroyed and still continuing ...

Where will all this stop?

Where will all this stop?

I tend to accept it as kind of evolution, i.e. that there are predators and prey among human beings, and that it is an "arms race" to see who can evolve the fastest; the predators to keep eating prey, and the prey to keep avoiding being eaten. But, in the case of the BKs, they - or at least their spirits - might be more like predatorial parasites rather than noble predators like lions.

I've accepted that when I was young, I was basically brought up to prey, e.g. part of that being to show irrational deference to, acceptance of (or aspiration to become) religious people as most of us are in school or by our families. In short, a sucker, a fool in this area of life.

We wandered into the predator's territory clueless of that world, & was lucky to escape alive.

I suppose on that basis, the answer is only when society become wide & immune to them, the problem being that each generation a new batch of suckers, dreamers, & holy egotists are produced for the predators to parasite upon. And each generation, the predators or parasites learn to disguise themselves, & improve their traps to catch them.

It's not a lot different from the call centre scams that are having a Golden Age in India at the moment, is not it? You wouldn't believe that people were still fooled by them, but they are. Similar types of people to use too, I would argue, e.g. essentially good or naive, & mostly at least average intelligence, but suffering some kind of blindness, egotism, or greed that allows then to be drained by dishonest bloodsuckers pretending to be something different to what they are.

The main difference with BKism appearing to be some kind hypnotic or psychic mechanism to fill us with a little drug-like euphoria at the beginning, to keep us hooked for years.