Islam and BK

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ex-l

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Re: Islam and BK

Post05 Oct 2017

I look forward to Search’s response on the discussion so far, however, I would like to note in advance a huge shift in the BKs’ attitude towards other religions, and that of their tribal god spirit, from the early “pure” days of BKism.

Which was, of course, hugely critical and insulting, calling them devilish, de-crying them as a waste of time, and so on. Special criticism always being reserved for Mahmud Ghazni, who brought Islam to India and his invasions of India 1,000 years ago.

Since the 1980s, they seem to have allied themselves with other religions more and more, first by way of establishing their own credibility ("We are a religion too") and to learn other tricks; latterly adopting a patronisingly surperior and apologetic role towards them ("We are the source of all spirituality"). And, as they extend service into Muslim countries, they have had to softer than claims and criticism, and edit out the Murli.

They super carefully avoid conflict of opinion as they do, e.g. Lekhraj Kirpalani and the Murli is right and the truth, Muhammed is wrong and only half-baked, now degraded. He never ascended to heaven.

The latter concerns me because to do so it means that the BKs must become more and more dishonest and clandestine about their own religion and beliefs, and hide their true beliefs instead making mealy mouthed statements about "recognizing the divinity in all souls/religion".

Such as statement sounds good, and is very well practised by them, but is basically an outright lie contradictory to their original teachings.

Perhaps they have changes their original teachings yet again? Is anyone tracking how many times the Murlis have been re-written by human beings?
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Re: Islam and BK

Post12 Oct 2017

search wrote:Gabriel was sincere and honest at his job, this is what the verses of the Quran say about him and the messages he delivered.
ex-l wrote:Keeping on topic, here's a similarity between Islam and BKism (and many others).Your statement is based upon circular reasoning, a false logic

Here, we are discussing from the Islamic perspective, so I need to quote the Quran before stating my views which are derived from these texts.

This discussion is to look into the similarities or dissimilarities between Islam and BKs, not to prove Islam and there are a millions of websites out there for that purpose, so stating from the Quran is to validate the Islamic authenticity of that opinion.

Otherwise people could throw millions of opinions stating this is Islam or this is what BKs think say or do without pointing to any references. It could either be misunderstanding or misrepresentation in that case.

Other points discussed
    1. US is also the greatest supplier of weapons around the world and most prominently the Middle East. From where I stay (ME), and looking around, I do not see things getting any better but situations are getting bad due to the many wars and huge investments on wars which has taken its toll on these economies. Taxes are also being introduced in the GCC countries. Previously there used to be subsidies, now being replaced with taxes.
    2. Muhammed Ghazni though was a Muslim ruler is not a religious figure, and history has it that he invaded India many times and his raids were of plunder and looting. The Murlis also mention India was the first to reach the rajo stage, when the other religions were still in their sato or tamo stages, so it is understood that they were being dominated as a result of their degradation.
The Quran has a similar verse , and here is an explanation of a Muslim scholar on this,
"After the Fall of Muslim Spain ( الأَنْدَلسْ ), the last Arabic poet of the Moors, Abu al-Baqa al-Rindi starts his elegy ( مرثيه ), mourning the devastation and destruction of his homeland, with the following opening verse:
(Everything when comes to its maturity, perishes; therefore, human beings should not be deceived by the (available) comforts and amenities of their life). There is no exception in Allah’s Way ( سُنَّة اللّه ) that the unjust, tyrant and morally bankrupt nations perish and Allah places other nations in their position. Allah has very clearly warned us about His Way: (If you turn back (from the Path of Allah), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you!) Surah: 47, Verse: 38.

The Holy Qur’an has repeatedly warned the mankind and particularly the world nations who do not adhere to the morality and higher values that such systems and strategies which are based on coercion, looting and exploitation, will not persist long and will change. In the same way the declining nations cannot rise until they change what is within themselves, as Allah says: (Allah does not change the condition of people until they change what is within themselves). Surah 13: Verse 11. "

Going by the above verse ( and others) , the Islamic perspective of the selection of the favored nations/or the Chosen ones are based upon their morality and/or God consciousness.
Off topic. Done many times on many topics. Take one, 5,000 Year Cycle including failed predictions of Destruction

Can you paste for me the link, where you have discussed these with proofs, with referencing?

Thanks
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Re: Islam and BK

Post12 Oct 2017

Correction

Murlis also mention India was the first to reach the tamo stage, when the other religions were still in their sato or rajo stages, so it is understood that they were being dominated as a result of their degradation.
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Pink Panther

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Re: Islam and BK

Post12 Oct 2017

Search, you have misunderstood the topic. It is about the Islamic influence on BK thinking and behaviour. Your posts are a little patronising, proposing to say what Islam really is because Muslims disagree among themselves about many of these things, and in fact BKs also disagree among themselves, dividing into traditionalists and New Age types, Indian an Western, those who believe in strict Gyan literally as spoken in the unrevised Sakar Murlis and those who would shape it to their own (or th emarket’s) sensibilities. That’s the problem with ”beliefs” - they can be whatever you want them to be.

As far as the sato-rajo-tamo progression you refer to and quote that scholar on as analogy, well you’d be better off using the 2nd law of thermodynamics or law of entropy rather than feudal rationalisations as to why one society rises to conquer another (and after all, the rising of any power is the opposite of your idea of constant degradation). Even the universe in total entropy is merely a temporary state where all energy expended is then ready to give in to gravitational forces.

Look at the rise of science itself, it's over millennia. It defies the gravity of these gunas!!! It has done the opposite of degrade and decay.

Science has expanded and grown to give so much to the world and is forward looking whilst self-sceptical, seeking to disprove itself because that is how it progresses and grows.

Islam, BK and other monotheistic traditions are essentially ”revelatory” hence backward looking, i.e. all truth must conform to a certain revelation at a certain past time, taken to be absolute and unchanging. Those believers that are not fundamentalists but are what we might call forward looking, progressive etc have actually been influenced/corrupted by science, humanism, knowledge and values from outside their religion’s foundations.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post12 Oct 2017

Pink Panther wrote:Search, you have misunderstood the topic. It is about the Islamic influence on BK thinking and behaviour.

In all fairness to Search, they started it with a question, "Are BKs compatible with Islam?". I think absolutely not. To promote BKism would be a death sentence within strict Islamic societies, and philosophically they are exclusively contradictory. Could Islam and BK find a middle ground of agreement? I doubt it. The only relationship that could exist would depend on how much the BKs can con Muslims into believing they (the BKs) believe things they do not.

The BKs are playing a dangerous game infiltrating Muslim countries (albeit mainly to target the wealth of Sindhi/Hindu/Indian overseas workers and immigrants there), attempting to claim that Islam's Allah is their god Shiva, that BKism is considerably superior to Islam, and attempting to bend the Quran to fit their aims.

It is also a joke when one of Islam's pride, its uniqueness and superiority, is based on the claim that the Qur'an is unchanged, whereas the Murli Monkeys of Mount Abu are re-writing and changing the BK scripture, the Murli, every other week.

Muslims believe that the Qur’an has remained the pure, and perfect word of God and that it is so wonderfully written, no one could repeat the perfection of it. They would reject the Murli as not being of their god, not being of the same degree of perfection, and being defiled by human beings who think they know better than god to change it.

The "unchanged Qur’an" bit is, of course, also myth. However, the BKs are adamant that "God" was not available to chat back then, and Muhammed learned it all from the BKs 5,000 years ago. But was not a very good student. Was spiritually far below most Hindus.
Off topic. Done many times on many topics. Take one, 5,000 Year Cycle including failed predictions of Destruction
search wrote:Can you paste for me the link, where you have discussed these with proofs, with referencing?

I am sorry, your reply was so late, I have forgotten the point to our discussion. Pick any topic in the "Scientific" forum. As far as the failed predictions of Destruction, they and the original evidence has also been discussed and post many times; WWII (imminent Destruction - Mahabharata war), 1950 (14 years Confluence Age), 1976 (40 years Confluence Age), 1986 (50 for Destruction - 100 year Confluence Age), 1986 to 1996 (50 to 60 years for Destruction - 100 year Confluence Age).

When did you become a BK? The Murlis would have been re-written many times before you did.

Looking at the actual Qur'an verses you refer to, rather than the commentaries you quote (below), they may no sense from a BK point of view.

Allah and Shiva are clearly not one and the same tribal god and clearly do not share the same natures/beliefs/abilities. BKism is certainly not the same "cause of Allah" (Path of God) referred in Islam!

Do you believe Allah is entering the body of Sister Gulzar in Mount Abu?

Do you think Muslims will accept the god spirit of the BKs as Allah, or just some kind of jinn?
in 13:11 Muhammed wrote:For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah. Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron.
in 47:38 Muhammed wrote:Here you are - those invited to spend in the cause of Allah - but among you are those who withhold [out of greed]. And whoever withholds only withholds [benefit] from himself; and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy. And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post02 Nov 2017

Pink Panther wrote:Science has expanded and grown to give so much to the world and is forward looking whilst self-sceptical, seeking to disprove itself because that is how it progresses and grows.

Hi Pink panther,

That's true, but what you have projected is only one face of science, on the flip side science also has a huge potential for destruction, dominance and callousness.

As mentioned in a Murli,
"The power of science is able to bring about transformation, growth, destruction, creation, upheaval and also give comfort. "

- Murli

Science is as much a danger as money, power or even religion is in the hands of corrupt and self centered. If people had used religion to built empires , people are using science to break empires. I think we have already started seeing the adverse effects of the power of science, like the climate changes, increase in temperatures, CO2 emissions, global warming, El nino ..., the many wars, the loss of lives, destruction of lands, ... hazards and dangers of nuclear and chemical weapons , etc.

My personal list would also include, prolonging of illness and suffering with medications in an attempt to keep a person alive.
Pink Panther wrote:(and after all, the rising of any power is the opposite of your idea of constant degradation)

Don't tell me you don't know this explanation.

Example,

I am constructing a building, I have around say 80 laborers, each with different potentials. Early in the morning I pick up 8 of the most efficient ones and delegate them with this job. In the afternoon, when the first batch is little exhausted, I chip in another batch of 12 efficient ones. Now I find that the first batch is doing their work slower than the second batch. Why? By evening I include 60 lesser efficient ones, and find that the collective work of the last batch is much more than the first two batches, why ? Surprising, is not it ?

And by night all of the batches are exhausted.

So each batch's performance was deteriorating over time, but when we see the over all speed at which the work was done on that day, our graph will show peaks each time a new batch was introduced.

Transfer this to the above two incompatibilities of degradation and rising to power at the same time, they are compatible now.
Your posts are a little patronising, proposing to say what Islam really is because Muslims disagree among themselves about many of these things, and in fact BKs also disagree among themselves,

I don't think I stated any view with reference to Islam which is not accepted by the majority, this is why I quote texts. If the Islamic view was purely my understanding, I most likely would have added the words, this is my understand or something similar. If you could pinpoint where I have mentioned my sole view as 'this is Islam', I would either provide references or add the words, ' this is my view/understanding'.

That's true Muslims disagree about many things as it is with other religions. The Tree has to branch out, and the branches have to sub branch and then form many twigs, probably I think towards the end each individual will have his own distinct view and religion.

BKs disagree. If their study is true, then they should all conglomerate into one, like roots from different origins gather and join to form one trunk.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post02 Nov 2017

The word "Science" takes on a particular meaning within BKism. I don't know exactly what they mean by it.

In its purest form, science just mean knowledge and a manner of acquiring accurate knowledge through evidence based processes. The opposite of BKism's use of the word "Knowledge" which means blind faith. BKism is faith based, not knowledge based.

So what do the BKs mean by science and "the scientists"?

It is a word used by a fairly uneducated man and utterly uneducated women for what ... industry, technology, commerce even capitalism? I would say the later cause those things you blame science for. I think, to a degree, there is an element of class based condescension in their use of the word.

It is like they are playing at being high minded philosophers, looking down upon practical people engaged in physical work and real world problems ... while at the same time utterly dependents upon them ... but with absolutely no understanding of the processes or procedures involved.

Still, we are headed off topic again. What has this to do with BKs being compatible with Islam?
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Re: Islam and BK

Post02 Nov 2017

What has this to do with BKs being compatible with Islam?

Well, any Muslim will tell you that Mohammed is the last prophet and that there is no mention in the Koran or Hadith that Allah will one day, at the end of times, incarnate and speak through the mouth of a sindhi businessman. On the contrary.

They are compatible only insofar as the practitioners of each faith agree to get along - as human beings concerned with basic socially acceptable behaviours. If they decide to discuss who God really is and what revelation is the true one, get down to nuts and bolts so to speak, they are not compatible.

As for science, Islam and science are very compatible whereas BKism is not.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post02 Nov 2017

Pink Panther wrote:Mohammed is the last prophet and that there is no mention in the Koran or Hadith that Allah will one day ... incarnate and speak through the mouth of a Sindhi businessman.

So what you are saying is, at the End of the World Islam predicts a prophet soul, not a profit soul?
The Quran and Prophet Muhammad have foretold the return of Jesus. Prophet Muhammad has prophesied about several events that will occur just before the advent of the day of judgment. The return of Jesus will occur AFTER the Anti-Christ (known in Islam as the Dajjal, meaning the Deceiver who claims to be God) appears and attempts to deceive people into worshipping him.

Given that Lekhraj Kirpalani believed and taught himself to be God, and probably remains the BK god, wouldn't he qualify as a Dajjal, (meaning a Deceiver who claims to be God)?

Islam is full of highly detailed End of the World predictions that look even more unlikely than BKism. (Lekhraj Kirpalani does not fit the prophesies). It is too much hard work with no return for me to be bothered unpicking it all but there's more here.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post03 Nov 2017

ex-l wrote:So what do the BKs mean by science and "the scientists"? It is a word used by a fairly uneducated man and utterly uneducated women for what ... industry, technology, commerce even capitalism? I would say the later cause those things you blame science for. I think, to a degree, there is an element of class based condescension in their use of the word.

To distinguish between science and knowledge ( Gyan). Science is the knowledge of matter and application of it thereof.

Gyan would be knowledge of soul and methods of purifying it. The ultimate Psychology as taught by The Father of Psyche (Psyche meaning soul, logos meaning study). One slowly leading to Destruction and other leading to renewal.
The opposite of BKism's use of the word "Knowledge" which means blind faith. BKism is faith based, not knowledge based.

No, not blind faith, they are applicable concepts, The Knowledge (Gyan) is that knowledge which would renew the souls. Like the parable of rain mentioned in Qur'an which renews the dead earth.
Still, we are headed off topic again. What has this to do with BKs being compatible with Islam?

Yes, that was more of BKs being compatible with logic.

I am working in detail on this and would present it here once done.
Given that Lekhraj Kirpalani believed and taught himself to be God, and probably remains the BK god, wouldn't he qualify as a Dajjal, (meaning a Deceiver who claims to be God)?

Those were the Pre-KG days, where they were playing make believe games, so as to get comfortable with the class and that cannot be taken seriously or brought as proof.

In childhood, we are always taught that the Sun rises in the East, as we grow up we know what that really means, once we reach the next level of understanding, we do not get back to our childhood understanding and say, that was the basic that has to be true or say our teacher taught us all wrong things.

Does Lekhraj or BKs or the Spirit which talks through Lekhraj say that the initial understanding was correct. No!
When you have the final thesis paper why would you try to decipher what was scribbled in childhood, the later was only to practice your hand writing or teach you to hold the pencil or some thing similar.
Islam is full of highly detailed End of the World predictions that look even more unlikely than BKism. (Lekhraj Kirpalani does not fit the prophesies). It is too much hard work with no return for me to be bothered unpicking it all but there's more here.

Such a wonderful world to be destroyed !

I think the literature is there but the sequencing of events is missing or unknown. Probably that would suggest the new world established after Destruction.
Pink Panther wrote:As for science, Islam and science are very compatible whereas BK ism is not

Yes, Islam was one of those cradles which nourished science, but some where along its growth it was left unchecked, it's grown up to be unruly now, it wasn't making weapons of mass destruction then.
Well, any Muslim will tell you that Mohammed is the last prophet and that there is no mention in the Koran or Hadith that Allah will one day, at the end of times, incarnate and speak through the mouth of a sindhi businessman.

Coming of God in the end of days is mentioned. How, is not mentioned, so I think its better if we leave it to Him to decide how He has to come.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post03 Nov 2017

I have broken down the discussion into a number of topics , to deal with each of them separately .

TOPIC # 1 God of Islam and BKs

Q1.Would Muslims agree Shiva to be Allah ?
A: No and possibly yes.
No, if Shiva means the anthropomorphic deity kept in temples.
Possibly yes , if the image is just a symbolic representation of what God does and His qualities , if a parallel quality is found in Islamic texts.
Also yes if only the meanings are taken, like Shiva – The destroyer or Shiva- The Benefactor ( Ref Dr Zakir Naik)

Also refer http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=72

Q2.Whether Muslims would agree that their Allah enters Dadi Gulzar or Dada Lekhraj ?
Answer : An absolute NO, No way
Why ?
This needs introspection, what could the possible answers be.
1.The very thought of that makes my body quiver , that’s absolutely distasteful, such an holy being entering such lowly beings .That’s atrocious! Abominable ! A slander! . You are not a Muslim !
But wait ,Is my like or dislike an Islamic proof ?

2.Another answer would be , God doesn’t enter His creation, The creation couldn’t contain Him .
But ,the Quran doesn’t say so , it very clearly mentions in many verses the coming down of God in the last day. This Universe , the skies , the earth , this atmosphere is also His creation.

"Sahih International: And your Lord has come and the angels, rank upon rank,
Pickthall: And thy Lord shall come with angels, rank on rank, Quran( 89 : 22)


Surprisingly ,the name of this chapter is Fajr or Dawn which I assume is the coming of The Lord heralding the coming of dawn,a new morning.

( Rank upon rank would probably remind of the BK term 'numberwise')

Below is the succeeding verse to make clear the context of the above verse,

"Sahih International: And brought [within view], that Day, is Hell - that Day, man will remember, but what good to him will be the remembrance?
Pickthall: And hell is brought near that day; on that day man will remember, but how will the remembrance (then avail him)?" Q (89 : 23)


Also Salafi( The wahabbis) belief is that the believers could see God on the Day of Judgement .
References cut and pasted below
The meeting with Allaah and seeing Him on the Day of Judgement is proven in many texts, such as the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
"Some faces that Day will be naadirah (shining and radiant), looking at their Lord." [al-Qiyaamah 75:22-23]
Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the people said, "O Messenger of Allaah, will we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any doubts about seeing the full moon on a cloudless night?" They said, "No." He said, "Do you have any doubts about seeing the sun on a cloudless day?" They said, "No." He said, "Then you will see your Lord in the same way." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 764).”
https://islamqa.info/en/1916



Q3.There could also be an objection stating that God is stupendous , too vast, unlike anything else as mentioned in Surah 112, and there could possibly be a denial that He is a spirit or soul.

A: Surah Nur God is likened to light ,and doesn't seem to have much mass or volume .


Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills. And Allah presents examples for the people, and Allah is Knowing of all things. Surah Nur, Verse 35.[Sahih International]."


The following is my analysis.
When I read in a BK site mentioning the presence of oval stones in old temples , and the presence of one such in The Holy Kabba , I shrugged it off as some misunderstanding , some fanatic view. Well Muslims don’t worship that, we know well that it is a power less -stone , and Muslims kiss it because tradition mentions that Prophet Muhammed had kissed it . Agreed.
But ,the question is, why is it present there ?, what is it's significance ?, why didn’t Prophet Ibrahim smash it along with the other idols ?, Why didn’t Prophet Muhammed throw it away along with the other idols? .
Definitely it’s not the image of God from Muslim understanding , but at the same time it does have some unknown significance for its continued presence there.
Some Muslims suggest that , its just a marker from where to start the circumambulation , but why kiss a marker?

I have prepared a few more topics , and would take up the question after I have done compiling and posting them as well.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post03 Nov 2017

Before you do, can you just tell us what your point is, and what you want from us?

To the best of my knowledge, no one here is Muslim, no one here has any particular interest in Islam, and no one here defends Islam as being the one true religion.

If you want a theoretical discussion about Islam, if you want to practise doing BK seva for Muslims, you are in the wrong forum. You should go to an Islamic forum, or the BKs' forum.

Why are you so obsessed about Islam? Have you converted from Islam to BKism?
search wrote:I think the literature is there but the sequencing of events is missing or unknown ... Coming of God in the end of days is mentioned. How, is not mentioned, so I think its better if we leave it to Him to decide how He has to come.

If you are referring to Islam, you are utterly wrong.

Islam is exceptionally, ridiculously and unlikely specific about the End of the World.

You've also got your Greek and Latin all tangled up. Psychology is from psychos and -logia.

Psychos is mind, logos is word (used in various ways), -logia is the study of something. But I'll defer to Pink Panther's wisdom in this area.

Jesus returns in Islam, not Allah.

So you're making nonsensical sounds. You're all over the place. However, thank you for letting us know what the latest apologetic nonsense from the BKs about the years between 1932 to 1956 is.

You're telling us that Lekhraj Kirpalani had the mental age of a child at the time and was so deluded that it took him 24 years, and two failed predictions of the End of the World, to work out that he was not God.

Seriously ... it takes 24 years for an adult male in his 50s to work out he is not god?

How stupid and narcissistic do you think they and Lekhraj Kirpalani actually was? And how stupid and narcissistic do they remain, numberwise, until this day? Percentages please, as in your BK chart.

What mental age do you think they develop to in 1956, and how old are their minds now?

No, they don't say the philosophy of the early days was correct. They hid it, suppressed it, and whitewashed over it with lies and deceit. Lekhraj Kirpalani actually withheld food from any old lady who discussed it to stop them doing so, it was so coercively suppressed. They continue to lie about it and hid it. And yet you just brush all that off and repeat BKism, "that was OK but it was the days of our childhood".

Is that how you "renew souls" by denial, deception, suppression? I would call that the corruption and underline how they dumb people down to their infantile level.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post03 Nov 2017

Why Islam and BK so-called Gyan (and Vedanta hinduism generally) are incompatible:
    BK - The individual is a an immortal soul whose physical body will disintegrate while the soul reincarnates repeatedly. There is no ”paradise” beyond this world.
    Islam - there is one life, the spirit and the body of all the dead will, at the judgement day, reconstitute and rise again to enter a paradise which is not of this world. (This is common to Judaeism, Christianity and Islam, all deriving this idea from the Zoroastrians).

    BK - The world has always been here and always will be. Time is circular and repeats in a cycle identically every 5000 years.
    Islam - God created the universe from nothing. There is a linear progression to a final, end of the world, time. Then there is judgement.

    BK - God only comes at this time of the 5000 your cycle. He has NEVER communicated with any other human being before this time of The Cycle. All other religious founders are speaking from a limited memory of what was spoken By god Shiva through Brahma (Lekhraj) in the last cycle at this time.
    Islam - God sends his chief messenger and intermediary, the archangel Gabriel, to reveal his truth to Mohammed. God also inspires directly and through his angels other earlier prophets.

    BK- God does not control anything or do anything, only imparts (cough) ”knowledge" to BKs who know the whole history and geography of the world and who are the only ones who ever know God directly
    Islam - God controls everything. Nothing happens which is not God’s will. Humans cannot comprehend God and can only surrender and accept ”His” will

    BK- There is no devil or satan, there are no spirits or beings other than human souls and god. Angels are the BKs at this time
    Islam - Satan is real. There are many kinds of spirits, djinn, demons etc influencing things. Angels are always existing.

I could go on but if you are objective Mr search, you could also come up with more to add to this list. If you wish to ”search" similarities you will find them. If you wish to "search" differences you will find them.
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Re: Islam and BK

Post04 Nov 2017

Topic # 2 Islam’s pride Quran and its unaltered nature.

That’s true. This is the most acknowledged belief among Muslims with regards to Quran, with the exception of early Shias. I think, after Ayatollah Khomeni more Shias have started to acknowledge the Quran to be the unaltered and unadulterated word of The almighty.

The most common verse stated as a proof in this context is, Quran verse 15 : 9

The different translations for this are
Sahih International

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian.
Muhsin Khan
Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).
Pickthall
Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian.
Yusuf Ali
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Shakir
Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.
Dr. Ghali
Surely We, Ever We, have been sending down the Remembrance, and surely We are indeed Preservers of it.

In the above verse ad Dhikr – remembrance is translated as Quran.

Even if agreed that the Dhikr mentioned above is the Quranic text taking into consideration the following verses,

But this is an honored Qur'an , [Inscribed] in a Preserved Slate (Quran 85 : 21 , 22)

The question is are the meanings and understandings preserved, if so which among the many is the preserved one, which one to rely on, among the many varied interpretations.

Furthermore the hadiths draw a picture of the last days where knowledge and understanding would be lifted from people.
'Anas ibn Malik said, "I shall tell you a hadith which I heard from the Messenger of Allah, and which no-one will tell you after me. I heard him say, 'Among the signs of the Hour will be the disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance. Adultery will be prevalent and the drinking of wine will be common. The number of men will decrease and the number of women will increase until there will be fifty women to be looked after by one man.' " This hadith was reported in the two Sahih collections from the hadith of 'Abd-Rabbihi.

'Abdullah said, "The Prophet said, 'Just before the Hour, there will be days in which knowledge will disappear and ignorance will appear, and there will be much killing.' " [Ibn Majah; also narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim, from the hadith of al-A'mash]

Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman said, "The Prophet said, 'Islam will become worn out like clothes are, until there will be no-one who knows what fasting, prayer, charity and rituals are. The Qur'an will disappear in one night, and no ayah will be left on earth. Some groups of old people will be left who will say, 'We heard our fathers saying la ilaha illa Allah, so we repeated it.' ' Silah asked Hudhayfah, "What will saying la ilaha illa Allah do for them when they do not know what prayer, fasting, ritual and charity are?" Hudhayfah ignored him; then Silah repeated his question three times, and each time Hudayfah ignored him. Finally he answered, "O Silah, it will save them from Hell", and said it three times. [Ibn Majah]

This indicates that in the last days, knowledge will be taken from the people, and even the Qur'an will disappear from the scripts and from people's hearts. People will be left without knowledge. Only the old people will tell them that they used to hear people saying la ilaha illa Allah; and they will repeat it to feel close to Allah, so it will give them some blessing, even if they do not have any good deeds or beneficial knowledge. Knowledge will be taken away from men and ignorance will increase during the last days, and their ignorance and misguidance will increase until the end, as in the hadith of the Prophet: "The Hour will not come upon anyone who says, 'Allah, Allah'; it will only come upon the most evil of men."

So what would be left and preserved even in the last days would be la ilaha illa Allah , and according
To the below Hadiths this is the best of Dhikr ( rememberance)
The best Dhikr (remembering Allah) is La ilaha illallah and the best supplication is Al-Hamdu Lillah.” [At-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa’i and Ibn Majah]

The Messenger of Allah (saws) said: "The best worship is that of the Day of Arafah, and the best thing that I (saws) and other Prophets before me have said is: 'La ilaha illallahu wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul mulk, wa lahul hamd, wa huwa 'ala kuli sha'in qadeer. (There is no god except Allah Alone, He has no partner, to Him Alone belongs the Dominion, to Him Alone belongs All Praise, and He Alone Has Absolute Power over everything"
http://islamhelpline.net/node/7659


Quran also mentions the presence of Ummul Kitaab( Mother of Book) with God.

Allah eliminates what He wills or confirms, and with Him is the Mother of the Book. Quran 13 : 39
By the clear Book, Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand. And indeed it is, in the Mother of the Book with Us, exalted and full of wisdom. Quran 43 : 2,3,4

My analysis of Umm ul Kitab

This book should have some application and has to be superior to the Quran.

As the objective of the Quran is purification, the Mother of book being superior should have a larger scope and higher objective.

Understanding of some scholars on Mother of Book.
http://sufiyya.blogspot.ae/2010/02/umm- ... 13-39.html
Imam Haqqi :

The Arabs call Umm (mother) anything that is a source from which other (things) flow continuously. For example, the brain is referred to as the mother of the head; Makka is referred to as mother of the cities (Umm al Qura) ... This also means that it is its unchangeable origin.

Umm al Kitab is what Allah (swt) has written in the eternality before time/sempiternity (Azal); it is a knowledge originating from sempiternity (Azal) for eternity (Abad). Its existence is in Divine Perpetuity (Sarmadi), it is established in its own-essence/self (not contingent on any other knowledge), it encompasses everything with no addition or lack, everything in it is decreed in a specific measure.

Imam al-Razi adds to the above:
There are 2 further sayings on this matter:

1. Umm al Katab is the Preseved Tablet (al Lawh al Mahfouz) wherein all the events of the higher and lower Universes are fixed as stated by the Prophet (saaws): “ Allah was and nothing was with Him, then He created the Tablet and fixed in it the various states of everything in the creation until the occurrence of the Hour.”

2. Umm al Kitab is The Knowledge of Allah the most High, for He is all-Knowledgeable of all the knowledges of what is existent (Mawjood) and what is non-existent (Maa’doom). Even if the existent and the non-existent were to incur changes, The Knowledge of Allah of both does not change. That is what is referred to as Umm al-Kitab.

* There is an implicit and at times explicit understanding that Umm al Kitab is the origin of all the scriptures.

** Furthermore the commentators speak of two Kitab (Book/record) in The Knowledge of Allah:
1. The Book of The Knowledge of Allah
2. The Book that is kept of the deeds of the slaves.

Imam Bukhari reported in the “Book of Qur’an Commentary” ( Kitab al-Tafsir) and so did others that Umm al Kitab is the designation of Surat al Fatiha, as it is the Opening of the Qur’an. Imam Suyuti adds to this that al Fatiha contains all the subsequent knowledge that will be explicated in the rest of the Qur’anic Chapters ( Surah).

And Allah knows best.

My suggestions on The Mother of Book

This book should have some application and has to be superior to the Quran. As the objective of the Quran is purification , the Mother of book being superior should have a larger scope and an higher objective.

Is this book The Knowledge God showers towards the end of days to purify the souls and thus renew the elements, bringing back the dead earth to life ?

Indeed, the vengeance of your Lord is severe.Indeed, it is He who originates [creation] and repeats.
And He is the Forgiving, the Affectionate, Honorable Owner of the Throne, Effecter of what He intends
Quran ( 85 : 12-16)

Is this the 99/100 of the Mercy which He had reserved to be showered on the day or resurrection to save people from the Hell Fire.
Salman Farisi (RadhiAllahu 'anhu) reported,
Allah's Messenger ﷺ as saying:

Verily, there are one hundred (100 parts of) mercy for Allah, and it is one (1) part of this mercy by virtue of which there is mutual love between the people and ninety-nine (99) reserved for the Day of Resurrection.
[Sahih Muslim - Book 37 - Hadith 6632]

He also said, "Allah has divided mercy into 100 parts, and He retained with Him 99 parts, and sent down to earth 1 part. Through this one part creatures deal with one another with compassion, so much so that an animal lifts its hoof over its young lest it should hurt it." (Al-Bukhari)

The Arabic name for the attribute “All Merciful” (Ar’Rahman) and the Arabic word for womb (r’h’m) derived from it. In order for a womb to take up life and accommodate a growing baby, it must expand. This whole creation came from God’s mercy,
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Re: Islam and BK

Post04 Nov 2017

OK, search, I am going to ask you one more time.

Can you please just tell us what your point is, and what you want from us?

Are you a Muslim who has converted to BKism and trying to reconcile the two?
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