Post-BK Quicksand

An observation; what we share here is without doubt coming from our real experiences but both in the public and BKWSU in-house everything that is said, taught, inculcated and broadcast asserts that Gyan delivers the very opposite of oppression, fear, negativity, depression etc. How does this work?

Was I so susceptible to the promise of "liberation and liberation-in-life", that instead of developing the skills to self-identify what I need to be liberated from, I handed myself over to the God-men?

Was my personality in such a state when I came across the BKs that I surrendered myself completely to their promises? (I think that i know the answer to that). How powerful an "opiate" is the lure that when we become BKs we are in fact reclaiming that which is our birthright? The long lost and now found fortune of self awareness and sovereignity.

For me, is it that the mere prospect of attaining liberation from my 'ills' was enough to "switch me off"? And once switched-off did I live in a such a state of anticipation of this promised liberation, while drip by drip the Murli and BK systems kept me suspended in an "altered state of mind"? Not a substance induced mind-altered state but rather a mind-altered state of mindles of idealism? Unable to see clearly that at a deep level one set of dependencies were being replaced by another? Could this be my pattern of bahaviour unless and until i manage to break out of my dependency loop.

I was sharing with a forum friend a few hours ago that, as i was tinkering around late last night, i heard me cautioning myself that i ought to go to bed soon so that I could get up on time for attending the BK centre for listening to the Murli? I was a little shocked when this background talk came to my attention, but deeper significances of this did not hit me till this morning when i roused myself from sleep at 7.00am feeling quite disappointed that another day would go by with me being marked absent when the register was called. Why do i still feel - almost instinctively it seems - that there is benefit to be had by turning up for that ritual?

And inspite of all the BK-residuals in my psyche there still seems to be "courage" enough to announce my presence here as an 'exiting-BK'. Very cloying stuff this Post-BK Quicksand is not it? What a quagmire.

Hi, Joel ... I did not want to affirm that depression is oppression and all I said was based on my experience. Nothing from experts, books, or doctors in this field.

I felt oppressed/depressed BUT at such times I could not get out of it because I did not realise what was happening, needless to say our "Mayas" when in Gyan, remember BKs saying, "oh, he is with Maya today"! But, in fact, he/she was depressed. Anyway, I do advise anyone feeling that way to look for help; trustworthy friends and family members, doctors or any kind of healing and above all, even in your most "down" day, THINGS DO GET BETTER, as ex-l posted.

To say "depression is self oppression" is easy. What I want to know is how does that formulation help a depressed person? Because people are generally not conscious of how they inhibit themselves. Depression is also self protection. It is connected with withdrawal, dissociation. Someone may be afraid of what he will think, feel and do if he allows himself out. BKWSU, in particular, emphasizes the danger of letting oneself go out of control, the need to keep the self in check.

I'd so agree that to say these things is so easy; its always easy to advise other people but not have to even walk that path oneself, I've even discovered that sometimes one will share 'stuff' with other people <as if one is giving the greatest advice in the world ...!> but not follow the advice one-self at all?

As to helping a depressed person, I wonder if a depressed person can be helped without them first wanting to be helped? Its ironic that the depresssion itself is often a call for help but one cannot then even see the 'light' for the darkness ...

I'd say that all of us inhibit ourselves too, in a non conscious way, and in some way, depressed or not. I'd think that the 'trick' (pardon the anology!) is to get someone to believe in themselves first of all. A difficult enough task if we're talking about CHRONIC depression here.

I like your understanding of how depression is also self protection, it could also be linked to aspects of 'denial' then I s'pose?

but both in the public and BKWSU in-house everything that is said, taught, inculcated and broadcast asserts that Gyan delivers the very opposite of oppression, fear, negativity, depression etc. How does this work?

Was I so susceptible to the promise of "liberation and liberation-in-life", that instead of developing the skills to self-identify what I need to be liberated from, I handed myself over to the God-men?

Yup, great marketing ploy eh? I think this has been covered elsewhere in the forum though ...?? But maybe it also depends on what one identifies as opression, fear negativity etc (which by the way, are all Third Dimension experiences - not existing in Higher Dimensions ...).

The psyche really does seem to absorb a lot of this and then either accept it or try to reason its way out of any 'trap' that it finds itself in ... I have no doubt in my mind that for me the journey forward is always spiritual in nature, but I feel safe to assume that as long as there are humans involved I reckon we're going to still see some 3rd Dimension 'peoples' stuff emerging - maybe we need to realise that people' 'stuff' is what eventually 'cures' us?

So what is spiritual and what is depression? Or do I just not trust Humans any longer because of my time in the BKWSU? hmmmmm ... (that thought is depressing enough! ... )

ABEK, give us a song about Self-Identity (or is every song ever written not about this?????) - the search for self-image and self-identity seems constant within all. By Golly Miss Molly ... thats it ...

And inspite of all the BK-residuals in my psyche there still seems to be "courage" enough to announce my presence here as an 'exiting-BK'. Very cloying stuff this Post-BK Quicksand is not it? What a quagmire.

You mention the BK psyche residual? Here's something that got to me two weeks ago and left me awonderin' ... ( I am posting this only so that some readers can maybe identify what's still sitting 'inside' without realising same ... although similar points have been posted in other threads) ...

I went out to buy new curtains for our bedroom and found some what I thought were really beautiful and would just fit perfectly, hung them up and enjoyed the pretty patterns which were embroiderd on them. Last week there I am lying in bed, staring at the curtains deep in thought and what do I see in the patterns? Hello ... A Shiv Baba image ... (!)

I'd chosen the curtains because of the embroidered patterns according to the old symbol still stuck deep in the psyche ... <Now what do i do ~ Get rid of them or keep them?> I see the problem ... not to make light of others suffering but, hey, this is depressing to realise I've moved on, but I haven't either.

What about all that stuff about "depression being congealed anger"?

Ought one experiment with actually being "angry and upset" with "God", the BKWSU for what it did and seeing if the world falls on your head. I do not think it will.

Or throwing yourself into exploring all the taboos. Again, the sky will very probably stay where it is.

Very mysterious ...

As to helping a depressed person, I wonder if a depressed person can be helped without them first wanting to be helped? Its ironic that the depresssion itself is often a call for help but one cannot then even see the 'light' for the darkness ...

I'd say that all of us inhibit ourselves too, in a non conscious way, and in some way, depressed or not. I'd think that the 'trick' (pardon the anology!) is to get someone to believe in themselves first of all. A difficult enough task if we're talking about CHRONIC depression here.

Excellent point Paul

No depressed person can possibly be helped unless they want to accept that help ... unless they believe in fact that they even *need* help.

The trouble with chronic depression is that you take your negative thoughts/feelings to be an ACCURATE REFLECTION OF REALITY. You have never even considered the possibility that they are just an ACCURATE REFLECTION OF YOUR HABITUAL SELF-TALK, which is not necessarily reality at all.

Hold up those negative beliefs to the cold hard light of truth and they rarely stand up to such scrutiny. These cognitive inaccuracies must be realised & then challenged/combatted step by step or no relief can be gained ... which is why CBT is the treatment of choice these days.

Another funny thing is that when you are depressed, such is your wholly negatively skewed view of reality that you (falsely) believe you are deeply evil; and so it makes complete logical sense that your friends/family/the planet are, OF COURSE, going to be better off without you! It seems so damn logical & obvious that you even think that people will eventually forget that you ever existed - which particularly in the case of parents who love you, would never happen. But you only see that if you survive long enough to recover ...

Having had a lifetime of sometimes utterly crippling depression its taken a couple of decades for me to find out these facts. (Hmm no wonder I was attracted to the BKs promise of an end to suffering forever lol ).

Hi, it's scary to notice how, in most cases, we all walked through the BK threshold full of issues and happily believed that all of those burdens could easily, once and for all, be handed over to God via the Raja Yoga center and instruments. As long as we made the right efforts.

Regardless of our dedication and honesty - and here statistics or other people should talk - my impression is that any "healing" was mainly apparent. Transformation was either partial or none. Negative personality traits and weaknesses, either covered up like bitter pills coated with sugar or like dust swept under the carpet. Sooner or later it all erupts and lokiks can easily detect BK pretenses of being ever happy, powerful and viceless.

So, finding oneself still full of negative beliefs + self talks + inadequacies in facing real life, after years of Raja Yoga practise, can plunge us into a depression even grater than the one we originally had prior to meeting the BK. In fact, I would like to think more about what I learnt that was useful, and what was detrimental or got me stuck.

Just taking as an example, the whole story about Destruction being around the corner. It literally moulded our lives into fatalism. And now, it all seems fake. I know the Planet is being jeopardized by war, famine, calamities, pollution ... I do not deny that! But accepting that dark shadow as a central part of our creed and philosophy, just helped many people in neglecting studies, careers and much more. And everytime our talents were not used in service because they not appreciated by someone higher in the hierarchy, everytime our voice was not listened to, or everytime we were shamed, reprimanded, or weighed against those standrds of perfections of the SS, 108, Lakshmi Narayan ... what did it do to us?

I feel that, although a rebellious one, I remained a child rather than a becoming a master. This is not to blame an organization of all my delays in really blooming, or even let's say failing. I am just noticing, little by little, that in The Knowledge itself, in the way it's interpreted and forced on students through certain methods, there's something not totally auspicious or beneficial. Or maybe there's something very simplistic, superficial as well as authoritarian in the BK organization and its systems.

This organization promises to solve everyone's problems in no time and to give all answers and solutions to suffering human beings. We all know how we were forbidden to inform ourselves through lokik books etc ... taught how to shun any agyani therapist.

At the moment, and I wish to write some more about depression, I would encourage anybody (including myself, since I have taken that opportunity in the past, enjoyed and discontinued because I am a lazy fool!!) who experiences minor or great emotional discomfort, not to despise or discard the possibility to get some help from professionals.

This doesn't mean diminishing God's role as the greatest Surgeon or Healer, possibly it means bringing some pragmatism into our lives, and loving oneself.

I am sure other members have more from their music database and websites, but thinking of self-identity and empowering each other in overcoming depression & crap, and coming out of quicksands, these are the lyrics and tune that came into my heart: You are gold!

Spandau Ballet - Gold (written by: Gary Kemp)

Thank you for coming home
I am sorry that the chairs are all worn
I left them here I could have sworn
These are my salad days
Slowly being eaten away
Just another play for today
Oh, but I am proud of you, but I am proud of you
Nothing left to make me feel small
Luck has left me standing so tall

Chorus:

Gold (gold)
Always believe in your soul
You've got the power to know
You're indestructible
Always believe in, that you are
Gold (gold)
Glad that you're bound to return
There's something I could have learned
You're indestructible, always believe in ...

After the rush has gone
I hope you find a little more time
Remember we were partners in crime
It's only two years ago
The man with the suit and the face
You knew that he was there on the case
Now he's in love with you, he's in love with you
And love is like a high prison wall
But you could leave me standing so tall

(Chorus) (Instrumental break)

And love is like a high prison wall
But you could leave me standing so tall

Gold (gold)
Always believe in your soul
You've got the power to know
You're indestructible
Always believe in, 'cause you are
Gold (gold)
I am glad that you're bound to return
Something I could have learned
You're indestructible, always believe in ...
(Gold)

I read the latest posts - in fact all of them - with great interest. Synchronicity is such that these posts are casting some light on a situation I am crossing right now. What Paul and Zhuk described as part of depression,

No depressed person can possibly be helped unless they want to accept that help ... unless they believe in fact that they even *need* help.

The trouble with chronic depression is that you take your negative thoughts/feelings to be an ACCURATE REFLECTION OF REALITY. You have never even considered the possibility that they are just an ACCURATE REFLECTION OF YOUR HABITUAL SELF-TALK, which is not necessarily reality at all.

When you are depressed, such is your wholly negatively skewed view of reality that you (falsely) believe you are deeply evil; and so it makes complete logical sense that your friends/family/the planet are, OF COURSE, going to be better off without you!"

I often thought that depression was a disease affecting old ladies or totally helpless people. But it seems that as BK and exs, we can also be affected. So, it is interesting to read some symptoms being outlined in the posts. Whatever I want to write about it, the reasons why it brings new and useful realizations in my life, I will do in the common link among womens' topic, because it may take space here, be partly off topic and since someone suggested that I share something personal, I feel freer to do it in a more appropriate place.

Best wishes to all!