Feeling a bit lost

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shivshankar

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post26 Feb 2008

sarah wrote:Bkti-pit - I wish I had met you at one of my centres. You seem like a peaceful soul willing to see both sides and empathize. I wish all BKs were like that. :wink:

BKs are only those who are like Bkti-pit :). Others are just called BKs. According to statistics there are almost 900,000 students in BKWSU. But you will see that this number will hardly reduce after I allow everybody to do anything they want:). This will show who was doing rituals like in any religion and who was studying well.

As you said: time will tell.

With regards, ShivShankar.
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paulkershaw

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post26 Feb 2008

Hi Sarah, thanx for your honest and open writing, as has been suggested I too would recommend that you take the time to really look in some of the older posts on this forum and you will probably discover very similar posts to yours, meaning that you're not alone. Please permit me to say to you that GOD is not an external being, despite what you have been told and taught by the BKWSU.

My history with them goes quite far back but suffice to say that I was once a 'teacher' with them years ago and I too, like many beautiful people on this forum, bought into the whole story, it was my entire life, despite all the hurt it caused my family and my friends. You are very very fortunate indeed to have a husband that cares so much for you that he's been willing to stick with you. Lets be practical shall we?

(Hey GF!) You're also very fortunate that they did not make you ditch your cat ... ) :cry: I am so laughing out loud at the image of them feeding your cat out of a tin of tuna, them thinking that you'd better be worth it in the end, they must have washed their hands plenty after handling the cat food ... its a real lol moment for me that!

I want to comment that anything that destroys is not Godly, it is not Divine in nature and we do not need other people telling us how to feel or how to behave or even what to eat. Your own heart will tell you that won't it? If your heart is telling you that the BKWSU teachings and belief systems are not for you then LISTEN to it and work accordingly. Over the last few years, I facilitate a weekly spiritual meditation group, not stuck on any particular belief system or religious/spiritual following, but simply work from the heart, you can do this too I am sure. It does so much for me personally, it makes me grow in every aspect and I am amazed on a daily basis as to what info, energy and spiritual sustenance comes my way. Give from the heart and one will receive from the heart ...

One doesn't really need to go to an external group in order to receive spiritual support and 'divine inspiration' you know, you can do it yourself if you want to, there are plenty self-help cd's, books, dvd's, material available for both you and your husband to work with and for BOTH of you to grow with. Its sounds like he's a keeper so why not ask him if he'll join you in this process?

Why not create a specific time to sit together in the evenings and listen to something spiritual or just focus on your breathing, as do the buddhists you mention. Its all there for you, inside waiting to come out and play so enjoy this healing time that has emerged for both of you.

A question for you? Why not consider opening up your home once a week or twice a month to hold a spiritual support or dicussion group and then invite people from your area to give talks and meditations to whoever is present. In this way, you'll be holding open and honest communication with each other and can decide together if its right for you or not. Remember that you have just learnt a huge lesson "that the surface does not always show whats inside" - You may even choose to go to hatha Yoga together (I do! and its awesome; for me ...) and I am determined to never allow anyone ever again to tell me whats right or whats wrong for me.

God loves me and I love God kinda thingy is going on in my life and I wish that for you too ... suggestion that maybe you can both go off and learn Reiki healing or do some massage therapy course together - these are all forms of divine and spiritual expression and one can find much fulfillment on deep spiritual levels. This way you'll never have to hide anything from husband John. You'll never have to give anything up. You will simply find your way through to the things that will answer the questions you have.

Having all these spiritual questions is a wonderful thing for you do you know that? Without them, you wouldn't need to seek deeper answers and so find fulfillment for yourself.

I hope I've made my point.. I certainly cannot even think to say that what's good for me is also the best for you - its not. You must and will find your own way, but don't allow any group to dictate, order or change anything that doesn't feel right or causes external and internal damage. Divine guidance brings powerful inner change that will build you up and will let you know that you're already a Master soul. a beautiful child of the Universe, one who is beloved and one who can eat whatever you choose to do, because you will change it when you're ready to; if YOU need to. And another thing to mention here, poverty consciousness will keep you poor, so when someone tells you you're impure and you believe it, guess what, youre going to stay that way.

Overcoming Impurity is a matter of loving the self beyond all else. For someone to call you impure, means they have judged you and that their ego has told them that they;'re better than you. Thats a big spiritual no-no in any world we choose to live in. Now thats their impurity for ya! Send it back ten-fold I say and just be you.

I truly hope to have given you some insight into your current experiences. Please open yourself up to wider thought and wider processes and you will see, in just a little time, that what you have been taught by the BKWSU is in fact very restircting and not loving in its nature at all, despite what they say.

If I can help in any way at this time, I am open to comment or to private messages if you prefer. I am told that my viewpoints are always pretty direct but also will give you an alternative way of perceiving current things and events for you.

In the meantime I wish you much aloha (spiritual love light and blessings) ...
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sarah

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post26 Feb 2008

paulkershaw wrote: Please permit me to say to you that GOD is not an external being, despite what you have been told and taught by the BKWSU ...

Paul this is a bit scary for me. I have always felt I was a soul, and while with the BKs I felt that I was able to connect to God, as I understood him/her. I left the BKs because I felt that they were of the opinion that only they could connect with God, and unless I practiced a, b, and c, I would not get even close. I am picking up on this website that not only am I possibly not a soul, because it cannot objectively be proven, but that I have got God all wrong! Sorry if I am being a bit dim, but I really need to UNDERSTAND what you mean by God not being an external being.

Joel posted on my 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater' thread and said a similar thing about my experience during meditation not being an 'external reality.' Could you please expain what you mean? I also burst out laughing at the BKs feeding my cat. I had never thought of that. It is so funny :lol: Socks, my cat, only likes tuna chunks!!! The thought that they all had to shower afterwards is hilarious. Boy, must they have invested in me!!! Pretty sure that Socks brought in the odd dead mouse too! Oh dear, that could have been pure comedy (trusting, of course, the the mouse soul left the body well and truly before Socks moved in!!!).
My history with them goes quite far back but suffice to say that I was once a 'teacher' with them years ago and I too, like many beautiful people on this forum, bought into the whole story. ...

Right, well I cannot help but listen to you then. You were on the coal face for so many years, I cannot doubt your truth.
Over the last few years, I facilitate a weekly spiritual meditation group, not stuck on any particular belief system or religious/spiritual following, but simply work from the heart. You can do this too I am sure. ...

Now this is good, I could do this. I am feeling fired up now, not as depressed as earlier when I thought I had to ditch my notion of God!! :cry:
Its sounds like he's a keeper so why not ask him if he'll join you in this process? ...

Sorry, but what is a keeper?
Overcoming Impurity is a matter of loving the self beyond all else. For someone to call you impure, means they have judged you and that their ego has told them that they're better than you. ...

Thanks Paul, that is really helpful and encouraging for me. It certainly will stop me banging on that particulary door when I am feeling weak.
If I can help in any way at this time, I am open to comment or to private messages if you prefer. I am told that my viewpoints are always pretty direct but also will give you an alternative way of perceiving current things and events for you...

I will certainly do that Paul. I am having trouble logging on to my personal email at the moment, but feel I will be asking you a lot of questions, especially as you were once a teacher, so you will know from the inside what exactly the BKs do believe. To be honest with you, I am beginning to wonder if I really evern knew exactly what they did believe. :shock:

Thanks mate. Will speak again for sure.

Sarah
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paulkershaw

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post27 Feb 2008

Sarah wrote: Paul this is a bit scary for me. I have always felt I was a soul, and while with the BKs I felt that I was able to connect to God, as I understood him/her. I left the BKs because I felt that they were of the opinion that only they could connect with God, and unless I practiced a, b, and c, I would not get even close. I am picking up on this website that not only am I possibly not a soul, because it cannot objectively be proven, but that I have got God all wrong! Sorry if I am being a bit dim, but I really need to UNDERSTAND what you mean by God not being an external being.

Hey Sarah I'd typed u a huge answer to your post and then pressed a wrong button and lost it all, so here I go again, maybe the first answer was not the thing to say! Joel has some really deep and interesting answers and I enjoy whatever he posts as there's also so much expereince behind his comments. What I wanted to say about God not being an 'external being' is that to my understanding we have all been taught that God is that Big Light, or the man, or The Dude with the Wise old face high in the sky.... and we've probably mostly beleived that kind of thing. The BKs teach a process that says that God is a non-human soul who resides in a Higher Realm and incarnates into his medium from time to time. My first experience of 'GOD' (with them) was when I had a huge realisation one evening, as if my mind and brain was rocked and pulled about and I felt-heard-knew "You are my child - never forget this" - which I never have forgotten.

Of course, because the BKWSU had taught me to meditate and I'd had the experience in meditation, that was it, I was in hook, line and sinker. It was only through the years after I left that I began to practice other forms of meditation and spiritual processes that I realised I still had 'God' but that my concepts were changing dramatically and that all I needed to do was open my heart and keep it clear and the connection was there. So to me The Big Man is not only an external process but also aligned with my heart. I now understand that my meditation/spiritual practice creates an internal adjustment which allows me to connect to myself whcih then in turn allows met to connect to God, so he's both inside and outside too, does that make more sense? But surely, you have your own concept of God? Why not work with that and develop it?
I also burst out laughing at the BKs feeding my cat. I had never thought of that. It is so funny :lol: Socks, my cat, only likes tuna chunks!!! The thought that they all had to shower afterwards is hilarious. Boy, must they have invested in me!!! Pretty sure that Socks brought in the odd dead mouse too! Oh dear, that could have been pure comedy (trusting, of course, the the mouse soul left the body well and truly before Socks moved in!!!)

Think about this: ~!~ The BKWSU cats were playing with you (their mouse) - and then they had to feed a cat themselves with something they hate and view as, like, so evil.

Hmmm, I wonder if they looked into "the Mirror" and saw what was happening within themselves at that moment ... and they want to teach about the Law of Karma? hahahahahaaa now thats really funny to me ... Anyway, you're OK - you still believe that animals have souls - they don't believe animals do ... suggest you watch a Tom & Jerry Cartoon soon, k? That darned cat never won and the mouse always pulled through. "I did I did I saw a purdy cat ..." - sorry got carried away a bit there with that image ... 8).
Now this is good, I could do this. I am feeling fired up now, not as depressed as earlier when I thought I had to ditch my notion of God!!

Don't ever have to ditch any notion - it'll make way for a newer notion as and when you're ready to work with it.
Sorry, but what is a keeper?

Huge sigh from paul about str8 girls ... ~!~ Have you never read "Behind every great woman stands a fabulous gay guy?" (!) What I mean by a keeper is that your man wants you, loves you, understands you - is willing to stand by you so don't let him go, keep him, (preferably in a clean cage, k? :biggrin: ) well-fed and with clean beer all the time. One really doesn't have to leave your partner in order to find your truth, unless of course he objects to travelling up the Himalayas with you, now thats 'cause for a problem or two ... and he should carry the backpacks!
Thanks Paul, that is really helpful and encouraging for me. It certainly will stop me banging on that particulary door when I am feeling weak

The BK's focus is on impurity ALL the Time, remember that one becomes what one thinks, they cannot help it; they don't know better, so forgive them their own evils, k?

Anyways ,I want to say to you that one is never weak, one simply forgets one's strengths from time to time and in my book of life, I really try to live in higher vibration, not in guilt or fear of what I haven't done or what I did in the past and ten seconds ago is the past to me (most days anyhow) ... so just go be human I say, thats all we can be anyway; in my open opinion.

See! You're alright now, you're seeing that your truth and their truth is not the same, and thats great news ... :D Be well til we 'e-speak' again.
Now do log off and go make your hubby a huge meat pie and pour him a pint, and tell him he's more than OK ... and know that God loves ya or you wouldn't be going through all this stuff. There's big things in store for you ... p.s you're a beautiful soul - do remember that xxxx
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sarah

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post27 Feb 2008

Thanks Paul, I totally agree with your experience of God. I had a similar realisation and the BKs pounced on it (the cat theme continues.) I did not dare explain that I had experienced similar in sahaja Yoga and also while sitting in a quaker meeting one Sunday. The quakers seem pretty chill and just offer a space for you to sit quietly, meditate, pray - they don't seem to have an agenda. During that time I had a real sense of something divine sitting next to me and I felt almost blinded with love and peace and the message I got was 'I am here for you always.' At the time I thought it was my dad who had died a few months earlier, which in truth is unlikely. He would be more likely to say 'It is so much more peacefur up here without you constantly grabbing the remote off me¬!'

Yes, I love Joel's posts. His personal account was one of the first things I read and decided to stay.

I will go and kiss my husband although we are both veggies so he will have a spinach pie instead (ha ha ha!).

Take care and speak again soon (by the way I attended a Buddhist meditation class last night and we had to send out loving kindness to firstly our immediate family and that included our pets! When I spoke to the monk about this later he said it is important to ease animals gently into their next incarnation as a human - Socks would definately have something to say about that - he has it made being a cat!).

love and light, Sarah :mrgreen:
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bansy

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post27 Feb 2008

Hi Sarah

Welcome to the forum.

Did you get a chance to go to Madhuban ? If truly committed, one's "intoxication" of the Murlis and BapDada would have probably been decisive to make the effort to go. There are a few tests to be passed before being allowed to go to Madhuban.

If not, then you need not fear. Meditiation experiences vary amongst meditators from all types of Yoga and meditation practices, and when you are vulnerable that experience always seems much more fulfilling at the time. The art of meditation takes years and years to practice for consistency if not for simply for determination and discipline. So it is not always certain what went on during meditation in those early days of each person's spriitual journey.

So don't hold back on yourself and move forward with the way things were. You know your life before, it wasn't that long ago, so it should not be so hard to return unless you wish to make it so, but now you are more experienced. Maybe now you will appreciate more what you had before than you realised. After that, then take the next step ... it could be going back to the BKs, or something else, but let that time come when it does. In the meantime, spend some time on the forum so you are aware that you are not the only one.

Maybe spend some time with your husband more, open up and reveal. I am sure if something was to happen to you right now (not that I would like it but I think you know what I mean), he would be the first to be at your help more than anyone else.

Take care
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arjun

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post27 Feb 2008

Sister Bansy wrote:Maybe spend some time with your husband more, open up and reveal. I am sure if something was to happen to you right now (not that I would like it but I think you know what I mean), he would be the first to be at your help more than anyone else.

Dear Sister Sarah,

Omshanti. I agree with what Sister Bansy has said above. Even the Murlis speak about following the path of household. I don't know how or why BKWSU supported you in your attempt to live separately from your husband. But you should try to take care of your family while pursuing your spiritual desires. Spirituality does not require renunciating the family. In fact the real test of spirituality is while living with the family.

As regards the rules like celibacy, vegetarianism, which are required to be followed by BKs, if you like these rules, I am sure you can pursuade your non-BK husband to allow you to follow these rules by serving him and the family with love.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun
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sarah

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post03 Mar 2008

Hi,

O.k, well some of you who have been reading my posts over the last week know what a struggle I am having 'withdrawing' from the centre I was heavily involved with recently. After I left I heard nothing, but I received this email over the weekend. It is I have to admit sincere, loving and gentle. I don't really know how to interpret it or whether to just accept it for what it is i.e a genuine acceptance of my choices, or whether I should just ignore it and move on. I am partly relieved to hear from them again, and yet partly wary of getting involved up to my eyeballs again. There have been many times when I have been persuaded back by a friendly face and a kind word only to feel that I was getting in too deep once again. The email seems very genuine to me and I am now wondering if I have been getting my 'spiritual' knickers in a twist!

"hope you are well. You have been coming into my thoughts in meditation and I wanted to share a few thoughts.

Its really good you have made a choice that will work for you. I wish you all the very best for that. Please don't give it another thought about letting myself or Jane down, which really doesn't come into it. We enjoy teaching Raja Yoga and if someone asks to know more we respond as best we can. But of course we are very aware that Raja Yoga has its challanging aspects, which require practise and realisation to master and understand. I believe you to be a very special soul with a highly developed spiritual side.

So please don't harbour any awkwardness in coming back for meditation or spiritual chats however frequently or occassionally you would like. We really do have an open door policy, open to come in, open to go out, as much or as little as you like. Most of the people who come want to learn at a very sedate pace, once a week or once a month. Often practising just one aspect for a period of time before moving onto the next. there are many who have been attending sessions like that for a good few years and have gradually integrated it into their lives so that their lives work better for them and they feel more content and peacful inside. Your feeling to practise being a soul and enjoy connecting with God sounds wonderful and I am sure will enable you to lead a more fulfilling life.

Hope you are enjoying this next phase of your life. "


Would be interesting to think what others think of this.

Sarah
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ex-l

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post03 Mar 2008

He is right that everything should be impersonal and that any ordinary human aspect should be taken out of the equation. it is often just the personal that drags and keeps us in.

I don't really believe that center-in-charges have spiritual chats. BK have more BK chats. Remember BK is the truth, the way and the light (TM), it is neither negotiable nor developing. All chats lead back to one thing ... as BKs we would listen to non-BKs crap for hours if we thought it would land us a new BK.

"Special soul" is sweet but it is a real Janki/Bapdada-ism and, as much as they like you, not that meaningful really.

How do you feel all about it now?
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sarah

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post03 Mar 2008

ex-l wrote:All chats lead back to one thing ...

Yes, I think this is the nub of it really. Ultimately, 'there is only one way home' 'TM. Even though it is well meant, the fact is, the BKs believe in only one way and it is non-negotiable. No matter how friendly they are, or how much they try to embrace my 'ambivalence', ultimately I will always pick up a feeling in their company that I am just not quite good enough, not really trying quite hard enough, but with a little tweaking, I could still even in this late hour, be saved. So many times I have been at that uncomfortable part of a conversation where I have been thinking 'this is now straying into 'loony tunes' territory, how can I navigate my way back?' and have suddenly had to leave or change the subject and it never goes down well.

Only this weekend, I did what I have not done for ages, certainly not during my BK involvement. I went to the cinema and saw a film. It was not particularly uplifting or spiritual. It was so good to just relax and enjoy it on a certain level and tuck into a tub of ice cream and not feel bad about it. I did not have to sit like a student in a seminar commenting on how this film was a product of the iron age. I could just enjoy it for its acting, its original direction etc. I found that I missed out on a lot of culture while being in the BKs because art is by its nature challenging, sending up reality, questioning reality etc, and is often very black indeed. I can now go to any art gallery and watch any film and just sit and enjoy. That is such freedom. If I had a choice between opting for freedom of choice and expression or opting for the pursuit of perfection which will probably never actually reach its destination, then I know which one I would rather choose.
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sparkal

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post03 Mar 2008

Hi Sarah. Welcome. We need to separate any notion that those running the centres are instruments of God. If they ever are, all good and well, but it would be wrong to see them as God's instruments in the total permanent sense. You have observed some weakness in their personality, so you have a more honest and realistic awareness now. People get a squeaky clean impression at first, which probably just puts even more pressure on those in centres.

For someone like yourself, I would suggest that you appreciate what you have taken/been given in terms of spiritual gifts and enlightenment, then see how it can all fit in to your life. If it doesn't fit, it may not be appropriate for YOU in YOUR life, while it may be for others in theirs. Without any guilt trips. Part of the learning process sooner or later is to get to grips with the subject of religion and guilt, within us, and the need to let it go.

The people in the centre are there to take you as far as you can go on that particular path. We are all different in how much capacity we have on that path. It could be said that, you are dealing with God in a personal way and not those in the centre in a personal way. They are just like the rest of us, trying to move forward, looking for support from God etc.

There are positive aspects to your experience. It is not easy to stick to them and just let the negative aspects go, but it is in your best interests to do so. I may not be the best example of this. And then there is that feeling of failure, of wanting to serve the world in God's service but not getting the chance. It is easy to allow the imagination to turn this into something that may never have been anyway.

The way to serve others is to be your self, which may not always be the same as what those who run a BK centre want. So we must become our own masters, that is what the teachings teach us, to become our own authorities over our own lives. Being bossed by those who RULE centres?, well, perhaps that has more to do with THEIR personality and not ours. Would these people just be somewhere else ruling and bossing if they were not BKs?
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bkti-pit

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post03 Mar 2008

sarah wrote:Would be interesting to think what others think of this.

Hi Sarah!

It seems to me that it is sincere but I pretty much think along the same lines as ex-l and Sparkal.

You are a special soul and you are not less special if you do not visit the BK center. You may use whatever you got there that is helpful to you. You may go once in a while for silent meditation if it pleases you. You know best what is good for you. Do not ever think that you are less. I do not believe that the BK way is the only way.

What is the BK way anyway? As an active BK myself, I take what suits me, what helps me to reach my ideals and fulfill my dreams and do not let anyone, not even Baba, dictate my life. If it makes sense to me: fine. If it doesn't: sorry but no thanks! After all, I am meant to be myself. Becoming pure is about becoming pure me, not about becoming someone else.

It is true that not many BKs are willing or able to share about spirituality openly, out of the BK box.

Love and may you have a long, joyful and fruitful spiritual life!
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sarah

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post03 Mar 2008

That was a very moving post bkti-pit - thank you very much. The website is so much better for your presence.

love and light,


Sarah, xx
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ex-l

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post04 Mar 2008

sarah wrote:...better place

No arguments there, sarah. We have to rise above it all and if not show them how to do it ... then at least rise above the gross nonsense.

I liked Sparkal's comment about the whole of humanity as "the spiritual family", rather than the somewhat presumptuous limitation of a elderly curry flavoured fartbags. (Which ... hooray ... will probably pass the word censor due to its inventiveness).

At a push, I have heard even senior BKs note something along the lines of that "Baba has to cook the stone headed intellects for the longest". My sense is that means that not everyone needs to climb into their cooking post and rattle around with them, unless you are feeling very charitable and can afford the knocks and efforts, and 'it' may just be a process, practise, Bhakti for "them what needs it".
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sparkal

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Re: Feeling a bit lost

Post04 Mar 2008

Hi Sarah, I posted a reply yesterday but it seems to have been removed by the moderator. Be careful who you accept help from on this forum as there is a sex predator around. They even try to give others advice on how to live their life. The game is getting a bit dirty so it is time for some action.

Be true to your selves and don't trust any of the self-indoctrinised authorities on this forum. Stay true to your own inner self, don't let others any closer than you have to. This forum is showing signs of immature behaviour, on a par with the BKs even.

This post will be gone soon.
Peace
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