Hello from Terry - The Power of Anonymity

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john

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Hello from Terry - The Power of Anonymity

Post04 Jan 2009

terry wrote:Hi Everyone, new contributor here. This first posting by me was a reply under, Brahma Kumaris Raise Issue of Abuse with BKWSU Leadership. Now a new thread has been created just for me! Thanks.

So, who me? Me TC. T is for Terry, and the C for Constanti (hope that double-shuffle keeps this entry from appearing on google!). If that rings a distant bell - started Raja Yoga in Sydney in 76, lived in London from 77-85, then back to Sydney. So hullo to you who may remember me, fondly or otherwise. My main interest in this forum is to understand what makes people "tick", - i.e. the psychology of it all.

Welcome to the forum Terry :D.

If you haven't already done so, check out the BKSWU history section. Maybe you will find some surprises, maybe not. It mainly deals with the Yagya history that your 'normal' BK knows nothing of and the BKSWU is trying to conceal.

Did you know about the prediction of world destruction which should have been 1976. Were you around when all were waiting at Madhuban for the end of the world?

Did you know Brahma was originally touted as God and there is no mention of Shiva until around 1950?
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ex-l

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Hullo from Terry

Post04 Jan 2009

terry wrote:So, who me? Me TC. T is for Terry, and the C for Constanti (hope that double-shuffle keeps this entry from appearing on Google!). If that rings a distant bell - started Raja Yoga in Sydney in 76, lived in London from 77 - 85, then back to Sydney. So hullo to you who may remember me, fondly or otherwise. My main interest in this forum is to understand what makes people "tick", i.e. the psychology of it all.

TC ... you chose to disclose your own identity, no one asked you. I apologize for responding on a personal level but, to my mind, it flags up a vested interest here. I am sorry if this does not appear like a warm welcome but you have chosen to jump in a deep end.

To a degree, you put in words what I have just been thinking about ... how this "self perpetuating entity" has actually 'left Gyan' and that the BKWSU is not Gyan which, funnily enough, this is also what the Justice League and the PBKs are saying. Obviously, a lot of what the Brahma Kumaris are doing is 'Brahma Kumarism' not Raja Yoga, Shrimat, or whatever it was.

The Australian Brahma Kumaris' City Fringe Meditation Space November and December 2008 web pages have you listed as still giving lectures on "the royal road" every second tuesday of the month between Charlie Hogg and Sister Sudesh. "The friendly meditation space" is the sort of BKWSU public front that I would describe as being distinctly rebranded in an obscure fashion to separate it from the core elements of the religion. A 'soft sell' tuned to its market in other words.
City Fringe Meditation Space wrote:Practical Meditation - a simple open-eyed meditation to refresh and recharge the mind, body and spirit. Try the weekly sessions and discover a technique that you can use anywhere!

Identifying, or even imaging, "anger" (personal invective) appears to me to be a primary defence technique of the BKWSU. It does not matter whether observations are true or not, whether they act as signposts to other more pressing issues, even if they are precusors to more serious results (like a BK topping themselves). If "negativity" can be deflected by shooting them and their messengers down as "anger", then that is what the Beaky Elite will do ... safe in knowledge that their following will run a mile from anything and anyone as being flagged up as such. In my opinion, they don't want to believe people can see through what is going on ... in a calm, collected and committed manner ... and appear to think they can do no wrong.

I don't see it. I see courage and concern. I see a lot of highly valid observations, including those about clearly illegal practises (which we all know go/went on). Are invested individuals meant to continue cruising on turning a blind eye and adopting a code of "omerta" towards the outside world?

I find the whole "caveat emptor ... its their karma" response both heartless and fallacious. If I bought a car or services and it was not as advertised, I would have a good legal case to have my money back and compensation. Ditto, as soon as you start screwing with other people's minds, "duty of care" and "undue influence" quickly come into play.

John is right ... have you had a look over the history forum and see how deep and long this stuff has been going on for? John mentions Destruction in 1976 and 'Prajapati God Brahma' ... I flag up Destruction around 1950 and WWII. Did the BKWSU Seniors in the early ever tell you anything about all this stuff?
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leela

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

Just an anecdote about the prediction of Destruction in 1976. I moved in circles of BKs from Leicester who had been in Gyan since well before 1976. They took the prediction very seriously. Many cashed in their insurance policies, and so on, in preparation. Ten, fifteen and twenty years later, they thought it was hilarious. They talked and laughed about it often, and it did not undermine their faith in any way. It was a popular story that I was first told during my 7 Day Course. Whatever people make of it now, there was certainly no secrecy about it when I was around.

Welcome to Terry, by the way. We probably crossed paths in London. Regarding anonymity, I tried three times to register here with my real name and my real email, but the system did not recognise me. So I took that as a sign!
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tete

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

G'Day to Terry and, yes, you are remembered with fond memories and your 'Hullo' was read via e-mail.

Regards,
Tete

P.S. The Justice League are the best. I presume these Justice League BKs also seek to do good, but I presume their attire is 'white', maybe they sit next to you and you are none the wiser. :D
leela wrote:It was a popular story that I was first told during my 7 Day Course. Whatever people make of it now, there was certainly no secrecy about it when I was around.

Well, I did not know, and my family member was from that period. It wasn't until ex-l and Joel (I asked Joel first, before asking my family member) were chatting about it that I dared and asked. And yup ... it was true. I think I asked in 2005.

I thought you all just meditated for Peace ... it never crossed my mind that you were in essence 'meditating (praying)' for Destruction. So, I say it is a secret with out a doubt.
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ex-l

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

leela wrote:Just an anecdote about the prediction of Destruction in 1976 ... They took the prediction very seriously. Many cashed in their insurance policies, and so on, in preparation. Ten, fifteen and twenty years later, they thought it was hilarious. They talked and laughed about it often ...

Kind of like how drunks talk about all the stupid things they did when they were not sober?

Can I ask the obvious question, is that "cashed in their insurance policies" or "cashed in their insurance policies and gave them to the Brahma Kumaris?".

Most likely they gave them to the Brahma Kumaris in order to earn more good karma in the Golden Age or they kept enough for an airfare to Mount Abu and had their bags packed ready behind the front door. Greenbacks aren't much use in a nuclear holocaust or when all continents except India start sinking beneath the waves. Speaking of which ... its a wonder the Beakies have not bought a ocean cruise ship, like the Scientologists or Herballife, on the promise of sailing followers back to India when Destruction happens. It could be used for VIP service retreats in the meanwhile.

    ... I mean, if Europe and Asia minor is going to sink, it will a hell of a lot short journey than going by the Cape or Suez.
So where do you stand with the BKs and the BK knowledge and practise now, terry? Presumably they do the "whole talk, chit-chat and then 'Sister leading a meditation' number at your lectures for them and there is some free toli in it for you?

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

Well, thank you all for your hearty welcome, whoever any of you are ...

In reply to John first, then ex-l.
John wrote:Did you know about the prediction of world destruction which should have been 1976. Were you around when all were waiting at Madhuban for the end of the world? Did you know Brahma was originally touted as God and there is no mention of Shiva until around 1950?

Answer is Yes and Yes: I went to India in December '76 and stayed till Feb "77. I'd only been attending the centre in Sydney for about 3 or 4 weeks before that. (A great time, a bunch of hippies living in a commune, tea & (musical) jam sessions after Yoga, and all free of charge!! But I digress.

Yes, there was talk of the date etc, and the first live Avyakt Murlis I heard, January 77, were all about BKs not being ready etc. (Listened to that one for decades and as I got to know the BKs more and more, realised they'd never be "ready"). Remember the Cold War was still happening, and worsened under Reagan etc. But it did not matter that much to me, I was young - 19 - I was in it for the high I got, from both the meditation and debating the zany cosmology, which I thought was so far out it might very well be true! I wasn't convinced, but found the Gyan not unlike the Zen koan, i.e. a great tool for taking the mind outside the box.

Some may remember me as a bit of a pest asking lots of awkward philosophical or scientific type questions. Like our correspondent ex-l and most other people, you see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest (lai la lai). As I enjoyed it all, I hung around, ignored that which did not serve the experience, and by osmosis seriously became one of them.

"Churning" is a double edged sword - one side is, it takes you out of old ways of thinking, but it's also the tool of the ego. ( I use "ego" not in the BK sense, but its original greek and modern psychological meaning - the conscious, waking construct of who I think "I" am, which is only part of the whole "Self" which includes the conscious "ego" and the unconscious, i.e. the organic "rest of me", the bulk of the iceberg below the waterline).

So, the 2nd edge of the sword, churning as tool of ego - you spend a lot of time rationalising or justifying what really doesn't make sense or doesn't "feel' right. Everyone does it, not just BKs. Once you've made an investment (time, emotion etc) you don't want to admit you bought a lemon, so you go on "churning", but what you consciously think and do goes against the instinct and reality of the Self. Like many correspondents have said, you begin doubting yourself, and anything else except the supposedly infallible teaching, infallible because of its purported author. The question of Shiva versus Brahma versus BapDada comes in here, but that's for another time - suffice to say that Truth is what serves the ego at any one time, so you accept. (Einstein said "Truth and Reality are two separate things").

Unlike most, I dug how cosmic B, V & S, the Hindu trinity, were. Gyan introduced me to the magic and mystery of Hindu thought, its wisdom reflected in a pantheon from which each selects that deity which serves the need. Jainism, Buddhism, Vedas and Vedanta, paths of Yoga, such insight and effort by so many for so long, all there for the pickings. So, BKs, thank you - your interpretations are askew and often self serving, but thanks for introducing me to the rich history, culture and wisdom of the sub-continent.

OK ex-l, I am flattered that you take such an interest to search me out on the web, but ... You selectively quote from the "Meditation Space" page stating that i lecture on the "royal road", associating that with the use of "royal" in Raja Yoga, and assuming that I am a practicing BK or apologist for them. From your previous correspondences you sometimes appear to be a bit obsessive, and the fact that you did not notice the rest of the quote or the topic seems to confirm this appearance.

Read a little more carefully - the full quote "the royal road to the unconscious" is from Freud, the topic is Dream Analysis, which I practice and teach. My aim in running the classes there was partly subversive (sorry Connie). I hope to teach others to eventually listen to and trust their inner voice, the sage within each of us, that same whisper that we often misunderstand or transfer / project outside of ourselves onto various guru figures.

And as for Presumably they do the "whole talk, chit-chat and then 'Sister leading a meditation' number at your lectures for them and there is some free toli in it for you? - well , no. I did 3 sessions, one a month. No Raja Yoga meditation was held or espoused. That may explain why you think Meditation Space is a 'front' - it is part of the reinvention the organisation does to survive/grow/serve a different market with a different style. "Front" implies deceit. All sales techniques, all personalities adopt a "persona", a "front', as do each of us. Deceit is a matter of degree.

And I never liked Toli or sweets generally, except maybe with a coffee. Refused it mostly in Madhuban and centres, which explains my naturally sweet way with words ...

As you seem to carry on so strongly about what Raja Yoga/BKs should be, you obviously still live by that paradigm. Your guide and teacher is still sought outside of yourself, so inevitably its deficient. You have been a bit lazy lately. Look at all the effort you put in; to churn, practice, embody those teachings, and still you were let down. But you don't put the same effort into letting go and seeking or developing an alternative paradigm, you cannot let go of that which has defined the ego, how you see yourself.

You won't admit you bought a crock of *^# lemons, well 'cause it did serve you for a time, and you recommended it to so many and how could you have been so wrong? You still try to convince yourself and others that if only it was practiced another way, all would then be according to (your) God's plan.

So, just to clarify for you ex-l where I stand - There is no god.

Or rather no god but that god which is a projection of the psychic need of the time, of a culture or of an individual.

So, you may ask, what or who did I experience in deep Yoga, from where is that incredible source of peace & power that seemed to come from somewhere else, who was that masked man? And I may answer - any part of one's self that is outside of our consciousness is experienced as "other" by the consciousness. Hence the experience of "divine intervention" or of "the muse" or ''the devil''. Even "Siva". I won't bore you by elaborating here.

One little trick I use is to replace the word "God" with "Life". If it serves Life, it serves God. If it does not serve Life, it is a false God. And really all Gods are false, or abstractions, as only Life itself is real. As the one-legged transexual from Stockholm said on one of Australia's top talk shows - "Be yourself, everyone else is taken".

Also, ex-l, the personal invective I referred to was about that directed against some of the BK management, not the other way round. I was playing devil's advocate. Specific accusations surely need investigating (by those who care) but there was a broad brush used, tarnishing some with no specifics mentioned, or nothing that sounded out of the ordinary in any hierarchy of humans, or animals for that matter.

It is courageous what the Justice League are doing (and thanks for accepting the nickname so readily, I thought it appropriate!), but they would achieve more if they forget about management styles and personality clashes or hurt feelings, and as any lawyer would tell you, limit themselves to solid evidence, to hard provable facts that cannot be denied and the "cases" that can be won. That's all I meant.

And as for "I find the whole "caveat emptor ... its their karma" response both heartless and fallacious. If I bought a car or services and it was not as advertised, I would have a good legal case ..."... well, It may be heartless but its true. If a legal case can be proven - fraud/extortion - it should be brought on, otherwise let it go and get on with life.

Same goes for deceitful advertising - how many people take the case forward? It usually ain't worth the grief. And anyway, maybe the whole story is true, and their donation does get them an 'umble abode amongst the chosen. No one knows for sure, that's why its called a "belief". And again, I never said it is their karma, implying they must have deserved it, you are naughty! And even disingenuous i must say, based on your writing style.

Anyway, thanks for the joust ex-l (does the "l" in "ex-l" stand for "life"?), hope to see you lighten up and laugh about it all a bit more. Life's too short.

Hey Leela - not sure, is that your real name or adopted BK mantle, or just a blog nom-de-plume?

And tete? man, give us a clue. What are you all afraid of? Legalities? Or blowing your cover, you cunning devils! Bring down the cone of silence Chief.
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ex-l

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

Hi. Oh, trust me I did read the whole quote. Two clicks of a mouse brings up a Google search and so it was not such a great effort. I suspect the "royal road" must have been comfortable for your sponsors on the "royal path", although it sounds like you are passing them by and traveling further.

    So, can I just confirm (this is not personal, it is a view back to 1976) did the senior Indian BKs really teach then that there was no Shiva mentioned in the BKWSU philosophy until after 1950?
Obviously, I am not address you with stuff you did not say, "its your karma" is a bit of a comic byline around here and in the BKWSU its your karma but never the leadership's ... its never the leadership wrong, its because you are not having enough Yoga etc.

The whole forum nickname thing happened quite innocently, carried over from the defunct xBKChat.com (... there is an archive linked to from above, you will probably know a lot of the old ex-BKs who used to post on it). For many active BKs and PBK, or 'exiting BKs', it takes on a serious aspect because they have need to discuss their experiences but are genuinely afraid of doing so, or being exposed and so we have accepted it a bit like the alcoholics anonymous.

Ditto, the Kripalani Klan was working at full pace attempting to identify various different parties and speculating wildly, just as the 'Justice League' reported, culminating in the legal action against the site when it all took on a far more serious significance. I suppose it reflects in a comic way, the cover names the senior use. You might find folks more open in communication via 'off forum' Private Messaging (PM) if they have confidence it is not going to spill back 'on forum'.

I am asking this fairly and seriously, if there is no "God Baba" but there is only "Life" ... and many's view on this forum might not actually be too far from your own ... but you are perfectly aware of the BKWSU line and their game, what do you think the BKWSU are doing putting up individuals such as yourself now?

Personally, I find the degree of institutional deceit within the BKWSU so overwhelming, and the road kill count far too high, that I think they should be quarantined from the rest of at least the rest of the world outside of India. From your recent and specific geographical view, how high would you score it? Do you support them, or where are your limits with their position?

I guess this is why we ask first off how much of the historical revision you are aware of and if you think it is ethical not to mention the likes to newcomers.
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joel

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Re: Brahma Kumaris Raise Issue of Abuse with BKWSU Leadership

Post05 Jan 2009

terry introduced himself, writing in part:
terry wrote:Hi Everyone, new contributor here. Been reading your blogs for some time now, mostly in amusement and amazement, mostly dispassionately, sometimes compassionately.

My main interest in this forum is to understand what makes people "tick", i.e. the psychology of it all.

Anyway, this is time consuming, but I will check in occasionally just to see my name in print!!!

Welcome Terry!

My main interest here is to express my deepest inner nature, as well as my shallow surface-nature. I am not sure if they are separable, or that I would want to separate them. I am more interested in embracing all and accepting all.

Please don't feel you need to consume your time just for us. Our lives were actually going okay.

You're welcome to look for your name in print. I am giving you an opportunity, Terry. I share with you a variety of responses to the various writings here. You can find even more variety if you look over at the BK/PBK side as well. We used to be one, but then, reaching our copper stage, dichotomy has reared its bifurcated head.

There is a serious side to our forum, too. My compassion is stimulated by how a group of people physically separated can gather around a person recovering from a kind of group think that teaches them to neglect their true thoughts, feelings and desires, and to actually try to kill their own souls in pursuit of a kind of perfection and eternal life. It is confusing that this mind-fock phenomenon often happens alongside others' experiences of unconflicted faith, ecstatic love of God, and lives re-created on notions of self-improvement and service to others.

I find myself writing somewhat oddly, even cussing, here, tho I have to change the spelling if I am to defeat this forum's well-intended language filters. I think I am responding to what I read as a casual, even flippant tone, at the same time as you are speaking about those holy human qualities of passion and compassion. I don't really know where to go with that.

I may have met you some time in the past, although who I was then and who I am now are different people and also the same person. Do you think, Terry, that people tick like watches, mechanistic and easily manipulated? Or perhaps that metaphor means something different to you than these first associations of mine.

Terry

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

ex-l wrote:So, can I just confirm (this is not personal, it is a view back to 1976) did the senior Indian BKs really teach then that there was no Shiva mentioned in the BKWSU philosophy until after 1950?

Depends what you mean by teach. Not in the introductory 7 day course as it was then. In general discussions, q&A's and yes, in class situations, things about the evolution of the Gyan were discussed. I can confirm that it was mentioned that Brahma thought he was God until he later "realised" it was an "other" entity. Don't remember if specific dates like 1950 were mentioned but, hey, that was 30 years ago.
suspect the "royal road" must have been comfortable for your sponsors on the "royal path",

One writes copy for ads according to the publisher's and markets tastes. Told you there was a bit of subversion in my motives, but nothing malicious, just my cheeky nature.

As for Historical Revisionism - I suppose I became aware the Revised Murlis were called that for more than one reason even in my early days, late 70's, but it was not that important to me at the time. I suppose revisions had only just started. And if what was removed was the errors, well, OK that is what editing is for. My understanding is that the Dharna stuff was prioritised over the prophetic stuff. But if a revision is also revised, then revised again (after all only a few years of Sakar Murlis are used), well, reminds me of the old Milton Berle joke, "My whole family was raised on leftovers. No one remembers what happened to the original meal."

For this all to be an issue, one must believe in both the sanctity of the original and the ulterior motives of the revisors. You appear to be of both beliefs. I think the "ulterior motives" many correspondents attribute to the BK Admin are not all conscious motives. I think like most people they are doing their best, even if the best is not good enough. One main criticism is that many of these people are inexperienced, or not trained, or educated for the roles they have. Well, therefore the resulting "incompetence" is inevitable, to be expected.

If a person is under stress, whether from within their own psyche and/or from without from committed critics, "tabloid journalists", or people after their heads or their jobs, that pressure will lead to drastic and extreme responses. Self defence through lashing out at the tormentor is natural enough.

In Dream Work, if one (the ego) finds oneself in an antagonistic relationship with an "other" - whether a person or a ferocious monster, that figure represents an aspect of the unconscious self that has been denied its due. The way forward is not to conquer it or dominate it, but to befriend it, and that comes through the understanding of what now needs to be honoured and integrated. I'd agree that the BKSWU represents the ego in this case, and it is in it's hands how it deals with the "other". But you "others" are autonomous beings, not an aspect of that organism, unless you think you are, and look to it to be honoured or validated.

Neitsche said the greatest critic of something is the one who loves that thing the most. Less love, more apathy. You and many on this forum must love the BKSWU to care so much about it all. Personally, it played a part in my life, like the high school I attended, but if both ceased to exist tomorrow, it would not affect me in any way
what do you think the BKWSU are doing putting up individuals such as yourself now?

As said earlier, they are changing in their own way, trying to stay relevant. The Meditation Space does run non-BK events if they feel it is something that helps personal growth in some way, and I presume they can trust the facilitator. You can read my earlier comments about it being a "front". It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, which is what I don't get about all the snipers and 'victims", if it ain't mutually beneficial, what are you doing there? That's known as co-dependency.
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ex-l

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

I don't think I need to ask you about the ethics of the organization not disclosing all this stuff, and withholding the real agenda until some newcomer is really hooked ... "taking the pulse" as it was called. So I will leave it at that. You are not here to defend the BKWSU, right? Have a look around and you will find some of the old documents from the 30s to 60s that I never knew the BKWSU to share.

Unfortunately, as far as "change and evolution" etc, you are parroting the current public facing partyline. We were to have the same said to us right from the top, BK Neville advising Jayanti, as the BKWSO held the gun to our heads by way of legal action. I don't buy it at all. Its just advertising copy to impress outsiders.

But, on the nice side, have a look at Joel's dream diary topic. He might be interested to share over there. He had a wonderful one recently.
terry wrote:It was a mutually beneficial arrangement, which is what I don't get about all the snipers and 'victims", if it ain't mutually beneficial, what are you doing there? That's known as co-dependency.

... as in "good for your business, good for theirs"?

There is a lot to digest here. Have you caught wind of how deep the financial co-dependency between the BKWSU and chosen followers has gone? I must admit, it was a pretty big motivating issue for my revolt. It used to clearly against Shrimat or against the Maryadas. It still goes against the Sakar Murlis. I have not read when "God" had a change of heart (or a change of accountant) and opened the flood gates for co-prosperity.

This is quite serious. There is one thing about running your own cult or, put nicely, building up your own intentional community based but, in my opinion, it is quite another to build up a charity on public donations and unpaid serf labor ... and then 20 years later, break it up and subvert it to become business interests and retirement homes for your chosen few. Sure, business as usual for religion but that is not what we were, and others currently are being sold. This is one aspect I think the both your "Justice League" and the PBKs have it ban on the head of the nail.

Like you though, I suspect it there has always been wheeling and dealing going on ... see my faux Marxist critique of the Hodgkinsonian tendencies of the BKWSU (UK) bourgeoisie and their Palladian Mansion.
Fanny Burney wrote:Before the journey to Nuneham took place, Fanny, rather unwisely, expressed her regret that she had some time previously neglected an opportunity of being introduced to the lady who house she was about to visit ... Their Majesties went to Nuneham to breakfast. Miss Burney followed in the afternoon with Miss Planta ... teacher of the Princess

It weird, some BK whose business they co-promote got married recently yet still lives/lived there with her "prince charming" fornicating madly on the premises we all hope.

If one make it clear one is social climbing, then all well and good. This is where I flagged up that the BKs are more about Sindhiwork and less about Yoga. But if one sets out in legal documents that one is running a charity that "alleviates poverty", as per the BKWSU (UK), then I am afraid it is crossing the line if the only poverty you alleviate is your own. This is equally a strong motivating force for me, since you asked.

Yes, and please accept the wit within my pen and not downclass it to "poison" or "anger" as has been accused. If the "Justice League" are 'The Torch', I think I will sign off as 'The Silver Surfer' ... if only it did not downgrade by status by 1,250 years next Kalpa. The Beakies have gotten so far unchecked by any 'thorn of truth' in their collectively well-padded asses that they have become careless and it is coming apart at the seams. Click to enlarge ... The Silver Surfer is one on the right, The Torch on the left.

ex-BK-superheroes.jpg
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john

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

terry wrote:Neitsche said the greatest critic of something is the one who loves that thing the most. Less love, more apathy. You and many on this forum must love the BKSWU to care so much about it all.

Yes, for me you are correct here.

What I would like to know is the whole truth, warts and all, not some PR celebrity fantasy.

And like in any investigation anything you can remember, however seemingly irrelevant to you, might hold some keys for us.
And if what was removed was the errors, well, OK that is what editing is for. My understanding is that the Dharna stuff was prioritised over the prophetic stuff.

The PBKs and others believe there is a more sinister motive for editing Murlis.

There is one point in a Murli which proves that Shiva would not incarnate into Dadi Gulzar and that Murli point has been changed in the revised Murli version to show that he would incarnate in such a person. If it is proved that Shiva doesn't incarnate into Dadi Gulzar and it is only Brahma, then how much will this change everything for the BKSWU?

Terry

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

Response to Joel

H Joel, I knew you better than you knew me. Sorry you seemed to have taken my humour and tone the wrong way. No intent to mock or offend. The comment about "time consuming" was no value judgement on the forum, just on how long it took me to compose and review my entry and getting through the registration etc when it was past midnight here at the time, i.e I was signing off with a light, flippant, hopefully entertaining comment.

You also seem to have taken umbrage at my comment about being interested in "what makes people tick" - just a common expression I thought would be easily understood by a majority of readers, following on from the registration requirement to say why we join. I thought it a good point to start with. And also to clarify that my reason for joining in the forum is unlike many on the forum who want to reform the BKs, or continue to live in the cold of it's shadow. I am interested in how and why other people have reacted to Raja Yoga practice differently to me, hopefully to understand people and myself better. I also feel that I have something to offer those who cannot move on easily, as my journey has taken me through a number of phases, and I find myself in a good space in my life, with no further axe to grind with the BKs. And plenty of good humour (well, I think my jokes are funny)

Your comments about the damage done to many is all too true. I congratulate you and your colleagues going back into the fray to help the wounded and shell shocked.

You also noted that along with the "mind focking", many others concurrently have deep profound spiritual experiences. While you were living in your "deep profound" phase, others were wounded and damaged. It did not appear just when you noticed it, and it did not appear with the inception of the BKSWU. Think of any individual, at any time in history, who finds himself unable to relate to the community or family that nurtured and "defined" him e.g. the only gay in a Christian fundamentalist US village, the talented, outgoing medieval woman forced into a convent etc. The tension between the individual and the collective is a "law of nature".

You, and many contributors, continue to use Gyan concepts and language to describe the dynamics of what's gone down. Again to quote the great Albert Einstein, "a problem cannot be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it". I hope that by using a different language, alternative ideas and ways forward can develop.

I sought your earlier contributions to the forum when I first started reading this site, as I found them well written and lucid. Particularly liked your little essay about the reasons we loved Madhuban in those halcyon days. I think with your reading of my entry, the bed spun in the night and the wrong side was got out of? Or maybe syntax of mine bad very nonsense is?

As for my attitude and tone ... well, I believe now that humour, more than cleanliness, or purity or most other things, is next to godliness. It is life affirming. I don't know about your people, Canadian aren't you? or Yank, you lived in Japan for a while ... anyway, here, our culture is to laugh at the worst of things. Not much else you can do in many cases. Aussie war veterans for example tend to tell anecdotes about the funny little things, rather than talk about the horrors that all shared in and are aware of anyway. So, it may just be a cultural as well as personality clash. Such is life.

Terry

ex-BK

  • Posts: 389
  • Joined: 04 Jan 2009
  • Location: OZ

Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

John wrote: And like in any investigation anything you can remember, however seemingly irrelevant to you, might hold some keys for us.

So there's the Justice League, and there's also Monsieur Poirot! Ask away.
There is one point in a Murli which proves that Shiva would not incarnate into Dadi Gulzar and that Murli point has been changed in the revised Murli version to show that he would incarnate in such a person. If it is proved that Shiva doesn't incarnate into Dadi Gulzar and it is only Brahma, then how much will this change everything for the BKSWU?

A few answers to that:

1. At the time I liked Murli points as much as the next Kumari (in fact, I often liked the next Kumari more), but when it got down to "my Murli point beats your Murli point" its like Christians debating, quoting chapter and verse. Really showed a lack of individual creative thought (are you reading this arjun) and I wasn't interested. I'd argue back quoting Plato or Jug Dish (sorry, cannot help myself).

2. My view is that Shiva is a euphemism for the inner sage as experienced by Lekhraj, an aspect of the personal unconscious that he gradually made sense of according to the culture and language available to him. Carl Jung, the founder of what's now called depth psychology or sacred psychology, experienced a similar figure regularly in his dreams and meditations, whom he named Philemon, a name which kind of means "friend" . He painted his "visions" - check google images.

The point being that Shiva is the seed within each, not a separate being, as it would be easily construed. Siva is another name for the centre of one' s being, experienced as separate to the conscious sense of self. When we are conscious, any aspect of the unconscious that manifests is felt as a separate being. An example of this is "seeing" someone lurking in the shadows on a dark street, but it turns out to be a manifestation of our fear.

The Raj Yoga technique is a way to open the door between the conscious and unconscious parts of one's self, which is potentially dangerous, particularly to an ego that is not "healthy". (Jung warned of the potential dangers to mental health from meditation, particularly for westerners). So the question, did Shiva "enter" Brahma, and the next question of whether Brahma's Shiva can enter Gulzar then depends on your answer to the first one. If Yes, then Shiva can do what he bloody well likes. If it' s all a case of nomenclature, descriptors of a profound but not uncommon psychological/mystical phenomenon, then , no, Shiva does not "enter" one so then cannot ''enter'' the other.

This also explains others' trance experiences, and other mediums both authorised and unauthorised. The experience is common, the language manifests according to the ego or consciousness trying to make sense of it with the symbols, language and constructs to hand. BTW, this is a mystical experience and concept found across cultures and religions.

3. No, I don't remember that point in particular, sorry.

4. No, I don't think it would make much difference to the institution, theology can get very obtuse.

Terry

ex-BK

  • Posts: 389
  • Joined: 04 Jan 2009
  • Location: OZ

Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

Reply to ex-l,

I did not grasp a lot of what you wrote, but I'll do my best ...
ex-l wrote:You are not here to defend the BKWSU, right?

Right, but where there is injustice and a threat to Twuth, I will be there!!
Unfortunately, as far as "change and evolution" etc, you are parroting the current public facing partyline.

Well, change is the single certainty of life, stasis is death. If an organism/organisation denies change it will die. It should embrace change. The issue is "what kind of change". It's not parroting, it's a truism cum cliche. Otherwise, you tell me why they would have an ex-BK teaching an alternative approach to self awareness. Would you have permitted it, according to Shrimat or Maryadas as you understood it in your day as pukka BK?
a mutually beneficial arrangement ... as in "good for your business, good for theirs"?

Remember the Tao, all existence is a transfer of energy. Another cynical way to say it is "everything is a business" - go ask the bees and flowers. If the deal benefited only me, well, what would you think of that? I made no money from it, but had use of the space, and practiced my art. They had a different "attraction" to bring people to their space. The people who attended my workshops seemed to have benefitted too, learning an alternative approach to self awareness. No-one was hurt, and hopefully they received some tools to help them from being mislead by external influences.
Have you caught wind?

You can tell over the internet?
Have you caught wind of how deep the financial co-dependency between the BKWSU and chosen followers has gone?

Ooohhh! Well, if it is mutually beneficial (!) and no-one is getting hurt, no problem. If people are getting hurt, laws broken etc, then take action - which I understand is happening, Thank You Justice League! And as for co-dependency - well, you cannot force an addict to want to change. They will find a way to fulfill their need somehow. Sure, if there's proof of corruption and an expose, people become wary about whom they associate with - there' s legal stuff and there's also personal responsibility.
Its weird, some BK whose business they co-promote got married recently yet still lives/lived there with her "prince charming" fornicating madly on the premises we all hope.

Spread the love around I say, make love, not war. Seriously, there seems to be contradictions on the forums in attitudes to the BKs dealing with sex/celibacy. I understand a disdain for hypocrisy, but we should all applaud when true love conquers dogma. Rather than shout "hypocrites!" we should praise the BKs for gradually becoming more open minded, they may open up more.

Good night all.
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ex-l

ex-BK

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Re: Hullo from Terry

Post05 Jan 2009

terry wrote:2. My view is that Shiva is a euphemism for the inner sage as experienced by Lekhraj, an aspect of the personal unconscious that he gradually made sense of according to the culture and language available to him. Carl Jung, the founder of what's now called depth psychology or sacred psychology, experienced a similar figure regularly

This is, of course, a million miles from where the BKWSU are at and complete and utter heresy. Good. Keep it up!

I think one of the big problems in the BKWSU is that they are lugging this great and fixed granite block around with them ... the posters and the 5 year cycle of Sakar Murlis ... claiming it to be the entirety of the pure and absolute "Twuth". Why should newcomers be labored with them? The old school BKs chip away at the corners "revising" it to remove embarrassing bloopers. The PBKs try and make sense of it on a more metaphorical level, some of which might well be true.

I think one of the main points we and the Justice League are making, is that the malleable system of privileges is not clearly stated and not offered equally to all. My nightmare is of 10,000s of uneducated Indians being held in a nigh medieval state whilst their gold and silver is milked. I keep relating this back to your question of our motivation. I am not 100% sure how benign the dictatorship is.

I wont press you on this. I am sure that you appreciate the contradictory natures of Shrimat and Maryadas and such developments. Developments with, basically, defeat the essence of Brahma Kumarism.

    Perhaps you can comment on how the Australian BKWSU have managed this 'negotiation' and how it compares to other BK national systems?
To fabricate a quote from a would be Hindu 'BK Winston Churchill', one might proclaim, "The Brahma Kumaris are the worst form of religion, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time ... Never was so much owed by so few to so many". The second bit sounds about right, I am not sure that I accept the first bit though. ;)
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