Hello from Terry - The Power of Anonymity

I never heard any of this stuff ... etc.

You always sounds outraged and surprised by all this, and that you expect some kind of official statement to clarify all. Probably a difference between me and my time in Gyan, and you in your time.

Histories are made of selective memory, collective memory, corporate (or official) memory. The corporate memory changes as people leave or die, and as you know, is selective. The collective memory includes all of us, and I suppose is part of your quest and this forum's as you try to make sense of it all.

In my time, I and others asked lots of questions, and often the same question of different people, to get past the selective memory of any individual. Most people were usually willing to answer. Maybe one reason was I went to Madhuban within weeks of taking the course, still unconvinced, whereas later they enforced a filter so that only the "proven" were allowed. Most who go there are already convinced, then when they find out more, are disillusioned.I understood early on that there was an evolution of Gyan .

i "understood" that an incorporeal being would be difficult for corporeal beings to comprehend immediately, that we (including, and especially, Dada Lekhraj) might need time to get used to the experience and make sense of it. The esoteric is enigmatic. The Mythos of a person and a culture informs its Logos from an unconscious level, which then feeds back into the Mythos.. The Mythos/Logos nexus in 1930's Sindh was Islam, Vaishnav Brahminism, patriarchal and caste based society, barely educated. What broke through for Lekhraj, i.e. his experiences, became revelations expressed according to the Logos of his consciousness and his times. It was bound to change as he changed, the times changed, the experiences changed.

Indeed the practice of going into deep silence is expressly to bypass the Logos, to experience "being". We'd agree that this state can be psychologically dangerous if the Logos ( the consciousness that the person uses to give name & form to the transcendental experience) is not built on its own firm foundation - i.e. grounded in some way, through a solid upbringing, education, ability to think objectively etc. Otherwise they are gullible, susceptible to exploitation, and potentially prone to breakdown.

Fine.

Let's agree it is just another cult then and drop the pretense of a "university". In a university, or even the real world, if new evidence appears you chuck out the old history books, not turn it into a cash cow of a religion. To put it plainly, you stop selling the old fairytales. Why did it take us, 27 years later, to come up with the hard paper evidence? Why does "God" in the Murlis get it wrong?

Spirit channeling and mediumship was and is common place in India whether at the educated (The Theosophical Society was the most active in the world in Lekhraj Kirpalani time but not a society to which he would have been part) or uneducated level. The disincarnate spirits had been speaking through other people (what did they tell you about the Golden Circle?). I take it you do not believe in disincarnate spirits and just see them as psychology?

I am sorry to say this but I think a bit of you is still stuck at "general propaganda level of BK consciousness". You are repeating the usual excuses the BKs do ... adding a layer or two of distracting non-BK psychobabble that makes it sounds just like out of a neo-BK service event. I get a feeling you still need to unpick some of that BKWSU code from out of your computer.

Terry, all of your posts seem to start with a puncturing personal insult. I read this to be a kind of "yukti" (method) to put folks on their back foot, perhaps to incite or unsettle them, e.g. if it is not me being an outraged harpie, it is other concerned BKs being comic book characters and hysterical over abuse. You do seem to be taking the defensive position for the BKWSU.

Let's get down to brass tacks. The switch from a Lekhraj Kirpalani being 'Prajapati God Brahma' for the best part of 20 years to the introduction of a God Shiva was seismic in scale. Not something anyone forgets. Nor would the decision, and methods required, to attempt cover up all the embarrassing past for decades. It would require collusion and did involve falsification. Its just sad that the real story has not been written because it is probably much more interesting.

Anyway, that is not for you to address. Have a look over the history section and some of the PBK forum, if you are interested. You will get a feel for how far we and others have gotten. No, the usual BK stuff does not wash here. Yes, your own experiences are interesting and valuable but details please.

Anyone who has been conned of years of their life has a right to be "outraged" when they wake up and discover it. Outrage is probably the correct emotion to have in order to move us on and away from the source of deceit.

There were definitely classes discussing how the Gyan changed that I was in attendance in early days (1976+), and I have a good memory for these things - changed from merging with Brahmand, to Brahma thinking he was God, to the Shiva incarnates etc. Most of these were in Madhuban, given by people like old Dadas Anand Kishore, Vishwa Kishore, Shashi, even the Dadis. The tone was usually amused - "geez we were dumb not to realise what was really happening".

But for how long were they 'Dumb" not to realise'?

In the BKSWU history of events, the party line is that Shiva entered Dada Lekhraj in 1937.

Yet it appears from old documents on this site that Shiva wasn't mentioned until the 1950's. That's 14 years!!!

The Father is incorporeal. He doesn't have a body of His own. He has to come into this one in his age of retirement, when he is 60 years old. Gurus are only adopted in one's stage of retirement. I am the Satguru, but I am incognito.

In what year was Dada Lekhraj 60? Definitely not in 1937.

I am sorry Terry, we have been doing our homework here. You have been out of the game too long. You really don't know what is going on. For reasonably natural reasons, you are being defensive and attempting to minimize damage. Go ask BKWSU India why they played a widespread music chairs with their center-in-charges. Don't theorize about events you had never even heard about before.

So ... it is the victim's own fault ... Life is tough and we stand by watching each successive generation of psychically intoxicated adherents being mugged on the basis of yet another failed prediction of Destruction because ... Its their karma!™ time!

I am sorry but someone going through the love bombing/honeymoon phase believing God has come and the world is about to be destroyed (again) by nuclear weapons they are in no fit state to commission a "due diligence" report. And you are smart enough to equate the validity of the "Stockholm Syndrome" or not.

... OK, so just show me one honest and complete set of accounts from the BKWSU in India (including all investments held) or details of Janki Kripalani account.

Why are they not on their websites like any other reputable charity?

I must take umbrage ... to your use of 'hysterical' to reference the BKs seeking reform within their organisation.

I said ..."the tone of the letter" ... not the people ... "was almost hysterical" ... almost not actually. They have every right to be emotional and outraged. Outrage and anger are great motivators for action, but are not in themselves the action needed to get results.

A letter of this kind, that seeks to be taken seriously, needs a measured, precise, practical and authoritative tone. The recipients of the letter will react to the tone of it as much as the content, if not more. Is the aim to get a result, or to let off more steam? Use the rage, direct it, focus it.

I was astonished at the BKs (with Dr. Hansa Raval at the helm) insistence that we provide proof of said violence & sexual abuse of children.

That has to be. It is how it is done that matters. People are innocent until proven guilty, and evidence has to be provided. A painful truth which prevents false accusers, and allows some perpetrators, get away with things. The alternative is allowing innocent people to be accused and punished for things they have not done.

You'd hope that if an accusation is made in an organisation like the BKWSU, they would take a pro-active approach to see if it was true, and if it was then decisively act. You would not expect, like sounds happened, for it to be an antagonistic defensive reaction.

we have been doing our homework here. You have been out of the game too long. You really don't know what is going on.

My, you are combative today. I agree with you 100%. You are now contradicting an earlier post by you about me, and confirming what i have been telling you.

As for "really don' t know what is going on" ...right again! - on the specifics. But what i have been trying to get across is that this is not unique to the BKs. In case you forgot, the "fight" that you are involved in is against individuals who identify as a group within a social framework. You are not up against God or the Devil or aliens. This has been going on for thousands of years.

Given your crusading position on all this, the facts and history to hand, and that there seem to be a large number of you in the UK who appear to be "activists", I wonder why you are not bombarding the media and the government authorities concerned already?

On one hand you ask for people like me to contribute, then question our perspective if it has a different tone or set of values? If you ain't with us, you must be against us? Man, it'd be a boring forum if everyone just agreed. A jewish mother gives her son two ties for his birthday, a blue one and a red one. He goes in the other room and puts on the blue tie so his mother can see he appreciates the gift. When he comes back out, she says "and what's wrong with the red tie?"

Terry, you are here distracting from one of the most important topics, or series of events, that have arisen in a long time. If you want to talk theory, please start a different topic. If you want to talk facts, let's take the child abuse case. All the immediate parties involved, including the Seniors, know who the perpetrators were. What happened? Show us your metal.

Or take at Hansa Raval's attempt at using the offices of the BKWSO 501(c) not-for-profit to carry out a personal law suit against us. We produced the "hard evidence" for the BKWSU as requested, for that one and more. She accused us of "blackmail" by doing so.

One writes a letter to Janki Kripalani and it is completely ignored. One presses and the BKWSU (UK) solicitor responds that she ... as UK administrator ... is unable to respond to letters sent to her ... as the global administrator. Meanwhile the Brahma Kumaris hide that fact that 6 months earlier they had invented an invisible, unaccountable "International Coordinating Office" in London to handle just such matters. This is "One of the 8", the chief.

So, the question is ... who is there to take it to? What track record do they have?
Where is there ONE BK with any track record of taking on the Seniors over issues of abuse?

The people you are talking about reporting it to are the very people carrying it much of it off, and defending or empowering the perpetrators. Its like you are saying, "if you have a complaint about the Politburo bring it to the Politburo, comrade, and the Stasi will deal with you, err ... it". Few to no Westerners have any power or influence within the BKWSU, and the real power lies not in the publicly accountable businesses, trusts and charities ... but behind the scenes and in the hidden hands of the Kirpalani Klan. That is the real problem.

I meant you help the "Justice League" formulate a letter or report. Not help the Brahma Kumaris. I suspect by now the Justice League already have you marked as an Brahma Kumari apologist and distractor. Please take any of our evidenced findings here on this site and create many reports to give to the leadership.

Actually, we have been trying to work out who and what the real power structure of the Brahma Kumaris and avoid running around the hamster wheels they use to keep BKs busy. If you know who and what it is, please let us know.

You force me to point out that, again, you started your post using the "yukti" of throwing an cutting insult first.

by john on 10 Jan 2009

In reference to your question regarding dates of Shiva Baba entering and revisions: a splinter enters your foot and you think it's muscular pain for a year, then you find out it is a splinter. You then relate the story and say, I got a splinter in my foot a year ago (definite date now official), and laugh saying that I though it was muscular pain. Hope the analogy is clear enough. They believed one thing about the event, then a later belief replaces it. The date is related to the event, not the date of the new explanation.

All of your posts seem to start with a puncturing personal insult ... a yukti ... perhaps to incite or unsettle ... e.g. if it is not me being an outraged harpie, it is other concerned BKs being comic book characters

I did also say you were a saint in the same sentence. You obviously accept that. A harpie: as in harping on, occasionally shrill. Nothing personal. It may just be your style of writing. Are you being unsettled? Hopefully you are being stimulated to rethink and re-evaluate. Wouldn't want to be stuck in an inflexible mindset. As for comic book characters I refer you to your posts on 5th January including superheroes comic illustrations

Fine. Let's agree it is just another cult then and drop the pretense of a "university".

I agree. are you surprised? Should I also respond to the things I agree with so you feel I am "on your side"?

Anyone who has been conned of years of their life has a right to be "outraged" when they wake up and discover it. Outrage is probably the correct emotion to have in order to move us on and away from the source of deceit.

I am primarily interested in protecting folks from going into their system in the first place. Making them think and giving the materials to ask the sort of questions I should have [asked].

I told you I like to quote Jug Dish and Plato. Here's one paraphrased from Plato, "The greatest lie (or deceit) is that which is nearest the truth". The teachings and practice give a real experience, and there is a lot of "truth" there. We unfortunately believe it is the only truth, or the complete truth.

You do seem to be taking the defensive position for the BKWSU.

You are unsure of my consistency and motives, or suspect I am sympathetic to the BK cause. It's the people I am sympathetic to. NEWSFLASH! ... BKs are people too. They have back stories, reasons (if no excuses) for who they are and what they do. I feel sympathy for people who are trapped by their own consciousness. And I support the outrage you and others feel - been in that state myself - as it is a great motivator for action. But I am here, you are there. All I can offer is my perspective.

Yes, your own experiences are interesting and valuable but details please.

You already know lots more about me than I know about you. Your turn. Or is there not much else to you than this? Yes, I am being deliberately provocative.

I am not sure how to communicate with you, ex-l. Do you take in what I write, or just glance quickly over it?

I have stated repeatedly that the Torch group, and your group of outraged exs, if there is such a grouping, should be looking to the relevant authorities and regulators, with facts that support your allegations. And why not the media, if it is all so blatant? I have only said that in dealing with the Yugya heads, there are ways, and then there are ways. Sun Tzu - know your enemy, know how he thinks, then you can win the battle.

... child abuse case. All the immediate parties involved... know who the perpetrators were. What happened? Show us your mettle.

Why do you think I have any information on it? At the time, I knew that the guilty party was "transferred out"/expelled from Madhuban (presume we are talking of the same case) - why or where he went, I knew not. I only found out years later what he did.

In reference to your q? regarding dates of Shiva Baba entering and revisions: A splinter enters your foot and you think it's muscular pain for a year, then you find out it is a splinter. You then relate the story and say, I got a splinter in my foot a year ago (definite date now official), and laugh saying that I though it was muscular pain. Hope the analogy is clear enough. They believed one thing about the event, then a later belief replaces it. The date is related to the event, not the date of the new explanation.

What I am saying is that Shiva, from the evidence, did not enter until the Murlis started in the 1950's. There was no splinter, just muscular pain.

Hope that is clear.

In Murli Shiva says, "How do you know when I enter?" Answer, "When I speak knowledge". Therefore, no knowledge of Shiva, no entry.

Hi all,

Welcome to Terry, another BK supporter, who calls himself ex-BK. We missed them for a while.

I was in the mountains for winter holiday. Coming back, I was surprised reading the letters of "The Torch". They have legendary courage I must say. Some of the points they mention I witnessed also. But they have 'miles and miles to go' unless they understand that the source of all decadence and evil in BKWSU is coming from their most beloved spooks, Bap and Dada, and from the Seniors obsessed by them.

I found Terry's, who is holding the position of "who knows better", posts entertaining. You can find Terry's in all areas of social life where the suppressed ones, one day, become fed up, raise their voices and become active.

Others, who understand and feel their pain, join them and protest the injustice of the ruthless oppressors.

But there are often a third party on the scene who, like Terry, hold silently on the side of the oppressors but are disguised as objective observers with their very refined language criticizing the methods of the activists. Their job is to minimize the injustice of the oppressors and to make the activists complaints look unjust. They occupy the activists with their endless discussions and critics, blur the effect, they distract the public attention from the main target to their petty critics about the methods.

For me, a Jew is a Jew even if he does not follow the rules; a Muslim is a Muslim, even if he does not fast; a Christian is a Christian even if he does not go Sunday mornings to the church. A BK is a BK even if he is married like Terry and for years not going to the center and not following Maryadas. It all depends on the beliefs.

I must say that I find the patience and goodwill of ex-l amazing, that he is still hoping some cooperation and solidarity from Terry (and all Terry-like others) and that he is spending his valuable time answering them. I myself find Terry's arrogance and his position to Torch's letters disgusting and will not waste time answering in case he writes.

In this case, I follow John's overlooked line of thinking and I am sorry to distract from it. It is the Murli that defines 'the BKWSU' as 'the BKWSU' and not anyone's social theories, the corporate PR or the fronts.

(I presume you know Lekhraj Kirpalani was not 60 in 1936 and other details of his and other biography have been falsified? The point John makes is if he was not, why is the God of the BKs saying that he was?)

If one wishes to look for and study the metaphoric depth of the Murli alone, then that is fine and authentic by me. Or if you wish to study and try to resolve the contradictions within them, and between them and the PR or current modus operandi, that is also very fine. Those, along with the hard evidences that are being revealed, are the starting point and, in all kindness, you are not even at the starting point. BKs have a right to specific answers.

Terry, I flag up for the third time that you start your posts demeaning others (by assuming their are "my gang" and "outraged exs"). For the second time you make the suggestion that I am not capable of grasping what was being said or paying attention to detail. I take this as a further indication of how the BKWSU leadership are trying to play their game over these issues and defuse matters. All you are doing, Terry, is trotting out the usual loose and fake BKWSU excuses that might satisfy an vulnerable old widow, or some neophyte in their Honeymoon Period, but we left behind ages ago.

a) we have already had the "anti-party" accusations (with the attendant thrill that the end must be therefore be near).
b) as with the Justice League, the BKWSU speculated widely and erroneously about this forum's ownership, and have made efforts to personalize it onto specific individuals rather than look at the issues and address them already (do some research on xBKChat.com before us and look into their story).
c) in a similar vein, we have heard all the accusations that the Murlis on this site are somehow false or tampered with (whereas I think if you look, we are greater sticklers for details and authenticity than "the faithful").

I am not sure how to communicate with you, ex-l. Do you take in what I write, or just glance quickly over it?

Of course. I think most readers will see it in exactly the opposite manner. I did not ask you for information about the child abuse case. What you wrote is both misleading and 'damage control' (there were more than one person involved) ... why were they not brought to justice? Read the report, contact the author etc. It is not for us to fulfill the BKWSU leadership's duty of care and social responsibility.

You are a parent with a child entering into a vulnerable age. At some point they are either going to be encouraged personally to become involved in the Brahma Kumaris (because the End of the World is coming) and/or trip over this website (perhaps, along with further deprogramming or the need for personal support from those that understand, this is why you are here?). Perhaps it is being speculated they are a second birth Brahma Kumari?

The point I was making is, "you show us" or "you help them (the Justice League)".

You show us how. You take one incident ... issue or whatever, research it, present it and see what happens. What about, e.g. the teenage girls having to surrender their dowries so that "the poor" are not dumped on the BKWSU? Does that sound right to you?

I used Eromain's example of the Brahma Kumaris leadership's response to child sex abuse because it is very serious, sufficient researched and documented, and patiently well present to the leadership over a period of 4 years ... to runaround and a brick wall. What did the leadership do meanwhile and since? I read and heard that it included cover up, admitting in private but denying in public, passing the buck on a "taxi driver" (when probably they mean an inhouse BK driver) and obfuscation.

Tom, has just replied to you in a fairly potent post in the other topic. I think it would be more fair to the others if you and I respond to it here.

I found Terry's, who is holding the position of "who knows better", posts entertaining. You can find Terry's in all areas of social life where the suppressed ones, one day, become fed up, raise their voices and become active.

Others, who understand and feel their pain, join them and protest the injustice of the ruthless oppressors.

But there are often a third party on the scene who, like Terry, hold silently on the side of the oppressors but are disguised as objective observers with their very refined language criticizing the methods of the activists. Their job is to minimize the injustice of the oppressors and to make the activists complaints look unjust.They occupy the activists with their endless discussions and critics, blur the effect, they distract the public attention from the main target to their petty critics about the methods.

Now, I am not as harsh a judge as Tom is. I am waiting to see why you are really here. But I do agree with both the social theory that he expounds and the existence of such "political" strategy, both conscious and unconscious. That is to say respectively, willing and contrived actions; and actions driven by sub-conscious self-interests and or affinities. I suspect someone more intelligent than I has terminology for it.

Terry, forget the chit-chat. Just show us how. Take the lead and be the example for us to follow.

In other words, show us the evidence of where you stand, what you are about and what you have in you.

Terry,

That has to be. It is how it is done that matters. People are innocent until proven guilty, and evidence has to be provided. A painful truth which prevents false accusers, and allows some perpetrators, get away with things. The alternative is allowing innocent people to be accused and punished for things they have not done.

You'd hope that if an accusation is made in an organisation like the BKWSU, they would take a pro-active approach to see if it was true, and if it was then decisively act. You would not expect, like sounds happened, for it to be an antagonistic defensive reaction.

Why do you think I have any information on it? At the time, I knew that the guilty party was "transferred out"/expelled from Madhuban (presume we are talking of the same case) - why or where he went, I knew not. I only found out years later what he did.

I was most disheartened to learn that you too knew of the abuse (which was documented in Eromain's lengthy report including letters from the organisation). This only proves my point, that the legal action was a form of silencing people and their valid concerns, while thrusting 'the what and where' when you ALL knew! It was a SLAP (Strategic lawsuit against public participation) and I did consult with someone who knows and has written about SLAPS)!

I, personally, think Eugene taught the children the best lesson, that being 'not all adults are willing to look the other way and that some are willing to fight for their Rights to be protected and their Right to be cared for'. Claiming ignorance is weak and cowardice when the facts were mailed to every centre worldwide ... but it is a little like bringing the victim in to abuse them once more in the hope that that will deter them (which happens a lot) from coming forward again.

With all due respect, the BKWSU knew of the children for years, knew of Eromain's extensive report, and knew of the nearly five years in which he pursued the issue to protect children worldwide within the organisation since NOTHING had been done. So, yes, I do think it was abusive, and I expected a little more from Dr. Hansa Raval than to claim ignorance and that it was all lies. I was also dismayed at the tactics used, and as I have stated before, I NEVER signed a 'confidentiality agreement' ...

In my humble opinion, the legal case was just a TOOL to take away our 'FREE SPEECH', which is something that every soul on this planet has, no matter what their status or financial situation. The case was wrong, it was abusive, and it showed to what lengths they were willing to go to silence people that were simply reaching out to each other across the globe, to find some peace, healing, friendship and fellowship.

In a strange way, Terry, it would seem that the BKWSU finally got legal world recognition as the case set a precedent in 'Internet Free Speech', thus the free expression of those who come to this here forum and others around the world. So, the defensive act by the oppressed will serve to free many more and serve many more beyond. I guess the one thing that has me mixed up is that, when my family member heard about the abuse, his reaction was to want to speak to Eromain personally and inquire as to the well being of the children.

When the BKWSU contacted my family during the legal action to say what a 'terrible' person I was, and 'what terrible deeds' I was committing, I was told that if true that my family member would NEVER speak to me again. I said fine. I understood, and that we all had to do what we had to do. The next morning I let him look at the statements, and also the proof from the victims of physical abuse (police records), statements of sexual abuse etc. The BKWSU was willing to turn my own family against me ... how spiritual is that?

I couldn't look away. I couldn't pretend that the people who come here don't exist, that they do not suffer, nor ignore the fact that they had helped me, because of the function of 'Lets pretend it did not happen' and 'Lets ignore them'. The BKWSU has no exit strategy for its members, it offers no help to those that leave and imagine my shock to learn that they objected to us having links here?!?

One of the most prominent links is to the 'SUICIDE HOTLINE' as we have had some members who have been in very fragile situations, and as stated the BKWSU offers no EXIT STRATEGY. One thing is to not offer help, but I think it borders on a criminal act, to try and stop others from offering a helping hand and links to resources to others in serious dire need.

If you have some better way please let us know, we are all ears ... I might take a photo of the legal papers for you so that you can see to what ends these spiritual people went to ... they tried to break us and, in a way, all the forum members were abused. Out in the open for the world to see.

So, yes, I commend those trying to fix the BKWSU from within, as it certainly is hard enough doing it from the outside, but still many press on. I am well aware that BKs are human too, so no need to reprimand me, and please know, as others already do, that my participation here is of my own accord and has nothing to do with him. We are two separate people, and my concern has been the well being of my family. I would walk on hot coals to protect my child and other's children too. What's the point of saying they seek peace but look away from a child's cry? Why? A society (and an organisation too) is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable and their actions and in-actions to their plight.

Regards and a heartfelt sorry that we are on opposite sides (especially considering that you once lived with my family member), but we all have to do what our hearts dictate and what is right for us. I may be wrong but I feel you are sussing out information, to what end, and for what, or for whom?

As to ex-l, he is but a person who devotes time and effort for the benefit of others. Many have tried to attack him on a personal level. I never was told what was said about me, I imagine I never will. Others have, but won't say ... must be that 'stage' thing that is all important. No one knows the troubles of another unless they too have traveled that road. I am thankful for the friendship I was offered by both BKs, ex-BKs, and PBKs when I needed a loving hand to find my way in this journey that few in the outside understand.

PEACE, Tete

This is my final reply, as the issue is 'The Trust' and perhaps they can come and address their letters personally.

Tete wrote - I was most disheartened to learn that you too knew of the abuse ......you ALL knew!

Tete, I feel hurt that i am being accused of collusion. You have quoted my entry back at me but you have misread it. I stated the following: "I knew that the guilty party was "transferred out"/expelled from Madhuban (presume we are talking of the same case) - why [he went] or where he went, I knew not. I only found out years later what he did.""

The tense may not be clear. I will elaborate. I asked about a certain person in Madhuban one year (don't remember which year). he'd been a fixture, a main part of their infrastructure for years. I was told he' d been transferred. I was not told why. I only found out about the abuse sometime after 2000 or 2001, when an old London ex-BK visited me here in Sydney. I only found out that it was that person I'd asked about after that date, when i was forwarded more details from London, and that must have been the reason for his (the culprit's) departure from Madhuban.

Also, please be aware the girl who was attacked was a girl I knew and loved with deep affection from a young age. It shocked me deeply when I found out the details.

Eugene is an old friend, long unseen. I only found out about his campaign, what, maybe 1 - 2 years ago? What he did and the way he did it is admirable. I have been trying in my entries here to suggest a similar, formal approach. I have browsed a few more posts lately and found some showing even ex-l can write concise formal letters with clear intent, and without hyperbole, and yet sometimes he reverts to accusatory, false and contradictory comments about me ( I will be responding to some of those shortly). All his good work and good motives is no excuse for some of his posts. I refer you to a whole discussion called eex-l's recent postings damaging how the forum is perceived? I am not the only one who thinks he sometimes loses it, and thereby undermines his own achievements.

If you have some better way please let us know, we are all ears

I have been trying to make constructive suggestions, but get attacked for them.

I think a major strategic error was made when the invitation to meet with Jayanti was turned down. It would have been very easy to keep it short, to merely supply a list of subjects to be covered at the next meeting. And refuse to discuss what was not in your interests. You would, of course, at the next meeting have all the facts and evidence to hand ready to counter any attempts to avoid, obfuscate or deny. You would also only deal with such matters that could be dealt with in that way (facts , evidence, not hearsay or opinion).

My quote of Sun Tzu - Know your enemy; in this case, is simple. Know what are their strengths (size, finances, contacts, ability to intimidate) BUT what is their weakness (fear of bad publicity). The Torch group are doing that, but as "insiders" I'd think they would likely have a different desired outcome and therefore strategy.

I would suggest that you now accept the invitation and follow up, using the resources you have gathered. Make sure the right people are delegated, that is, those up to the task, who will neither allow themselves to be pushed off topic, or be manipulated into losing the "high" ground.
After all, you are offering to work with them, to give the opportunity to set up systems that will prevent others being hurt, and other accusations against them (i.e. codified realistic and workable practices & systems for dealing with alleged or actual corruption and abuse. Even the local kids soccer club has that).

If you feel any doubts in my motives or where I stand please ask me directly, or ask those who actually know me. I do not know why, but others on this forum seem threatened by me. They do not know me, although I have been honest and straightforward.