Hello from Terry - The Power of Anonymity

Thanks alladdin and thanks all - thanks especially to the heavyweight, hardpunching ex-l for awesome work. Great to find the forum.

Well, I have had a break and a had think about it all. I probably overreacted, as maybe did some of the respondents. I took the time to re-read all the entries in this topic, and all seemed to be in good humour until about the 9th or 10th January, when for some reason, both ex-l and I seemed to react to each other. We are both born under the same sign, so it may have been cosmic influences? Or maybe it was those disembottled spirits that some contributors are so fond of using to explain things?

I have also realised that having my rank changed from 'ex BK' to 'BK supporter' by the administrator/s is no bad thing, a BK reader may possibly be more open to what I contribute. Very cunning! (Now you're cooking Forum Admin dudes!).

To issues at hand - Having re-read the full series in this topic, I do believe that I have already answered most of the questions, even those asked after my brilliantly dramatic departure - about my 'relationship' with the BKs etc. If, after you review the exchange, you are still not satisfied, please ask again nicely, maybe use simpler terminology that may get through to this knucklehead (me) so I know exactly what you want to know. But please do not disbelieve me, misrepresent me and keep fishing, I have not withheld information, I am straightforward. Anyone who knows me will tell you that.

Are all new contributors required to take on some form of initiation task to prove themselves worthy ? It was strongly suggested I adopt a cause,

You take one incident ... issue or whatever, research it, present it and see what happens. What about, e.g. the teenage girls having to surrender their dowries so that "the poor" are not dumped on the BKWSU? ... Hansa Raval ... legal action ... etc.)

Why do I keep getting asked about things that you know more about, or have access to details of, than I do? As I have said all along, and agreeing with ex-l who said the same thing in his inimitable way "You have been out of the game too long. You really don't know what is going on." Truer every day, at least to do with episodes BK.

Here in the antipodes, there's not many Kumaris with dowries I am afraid (how about researching what Kumaris look like in bikinis at Bondi? Do they have to be Brahma Kumaris? A number of great working titles come to mind - What sarong with BK Mohini in a bikini? ) . My contribution, to answer your question, is to share my perspective. If that is not a reader's cup of tea, there's always the next topic to read.

Actions speak louder than words we'd all agree. Maybe after I have worked my three jobs, been a Father to my daughter, had a surf and some dinner, cleaned up house, find time to do bills and tax papers, then when that's up to speed, check if the gullible are still being skimmed. In the meantime, a few words on a blog giving alternative views is all I can do for the BK/anti-BK thingy.

Tom joined in Jan 10th too (what a date!) with some bolshi (Bush-i) doublespeak, full of presumptions, to accuse (yes, again accusations, why?) of my being a BK apologist and performing a job to distract the 'activists".

So, what is it about my position on the Torch's letters that disgusts you Tom? The idea of effective targeting of "winnable" battles (like Eugene the Great - learnt from Alexander e' did) by using undeniable evidence, and not diluting it with secondary issues and grievances? Tom, a number of others wrote with similar sentiments, yet they did not bother you? What possessed you?

Maybe you are right, and what's needed is a mass exorcism to set the BK institution to rights (so that'd make you a Christian, even if you don't go to church. Or an animist? Even tho' you lost your Mojo - 'cause it's what you believe). You, as a declared activist, can decide which tactic may succeed better in action, I am only a "Terry" like all the others. My opinion is not as valuable. But I do agree with you Tom that ex-l is amazing in his work load (may Metis guide his task so that Prometheus might be freed).

"I did not ask you for information about the child abuse case".

Yes, you did.

10 Jan "let's take the child abuse case. What happened? Show us your metal"

Is that not a question to me? And again, after I said I knew little but shared my very limited knowledge, am again accused with being "misleading" ... "damage control'". BTW, The joke about the Jewish mother and the ties was not meant to be a distraction. It was to comment that, whatever I said, there was something wrong (and maybe you love me like a jewish mother?)

Paul Kershaw - thank you for your quote from Serge Kahili King - it penetrated.

ex-l on 15th jan again makes a lot of presumptions and asks questions about my family life, even though I said I would not discuss it publicly, and wrote a private message to him with a bit more detail than was posted. I will add that only a little of what you say is relevant to our situation, the rest may be true for others or your experience, it is not here. No further response publicly about my family life.

would like to know why you felt you had to defend the Brahma Kumaris and on what grounds ... 21st Jan - ... the erroneous or misleading statements, the BK samo-samo, that he was writing. Half way between fluff and cover up.

I have no intention to defend them at all. At most, I am explaining them, from where I stand now, from having been one, and also what I know about people generally. That's why I believe frontal attack is not the way to get them to change.

There's a difference between "getting them to change" and "trying to change them". (The job of the psychiatrists, however many there are, is to make the light bulb want to change.) I used to be angry about the BKs and I understand the anger of a lot of contributors. Why am I no longer angry, especially with all the cases of corruption and abuse on these pages? Because I realised that it is to be angry at humanity. Because BKs are a collective grouping, like any other (as ex-l rightly points out in terms of Duty of Care etc). I accept humanity (collectively) as it is.

"People go crazy in congregations, they only get better one by one". Quoting his fa[i]ther in the song "All This Time" from the album 'The Soul Cages[/i].

Now, I am no psychologist, (where's Terry when you need him!)

Neither am I, i.e. I am self taught, no paper degree, and that goes for everything I do professionally or otherwise. I like to think that, just as Jesus was a carpenter, Jung a medical doctor, Socrates a stone mason, any healthy, inquiring and creative mind can grasp and develop original wisdom Thank you for the rest of your kind words Leela, I will try not to throw any tantrums again, regardless of typefaced provocations.

Frisbee me lad - Mr Miyagi? Wax on, w@^k off? I walk neither left , right or centre of BK road, I took a left turn a long time ago and have entered ... F#^*Me! The EX BK Forum!!

I walk neither left , right or centre of BK road, I took a left turn a long time ago and have entered ... F#^*Me! The EX BK Forum!!

ex-BK Kingdom, please ... we are all "making our subjects" and "claiming a high status" here or was it "listening to the calls of our devotees", to quote The Baba. Please join the queue for my penetrating dhristi in an orderly fashion, and not speak back unless you are spoken to.

Yes, I guess it is a bit like group therapy. Any newcomer has to stand up and introduce themselves then find their position in the pecking order ... "Hi, My name is Terry and I am a recovering BK". We all get nervous when one of us 'falls off the wagon', starts illicit trips to Brahma Kumari centers and is not honest about despite the smell of intoxication on their breath.

Regarding the child abuse cases. I did not mean details of the events. I meant ... "what happened" regarding the official response (or the pitiful non-response for 4 or 5 years); the lack of prosecutions etc. My feelings are that was not inspired so much by divine compassion for the offenders but burying the victims to "keep face" for the leadership. The point I was making is, look, there you have a genuine, justifiable case, perfectly reasonably presented ... and look how the leadership responds. What hope have 'the Torch' ... especially as their position is largely on a much more subtle level to do with Shrimat and the Maryadas?

I mean it honestly. Please help them phrase their concerns in such a manner that the Courtiers of the BKWSU will find them acceptable or take any other issue up.

There is one thing that I would like to ask you disclose. We are obviously discussed in BK circles. There are a number of things that you have written, or attitudes, which suggest to me that - despite your own personal position - you have been prepped or privy to BK chit-chat about all this. Would you care to discuss that?

I am not directly suggesting the "Anti-BK" presumption but it is also a common and petty label more limited BKs have stuck on us. Personally, I see what is happening here, and its effects, as something far more developed than just "Anti-". I find the whole "Anti-Party" idea pitiful. If that is really the best response they can come up with then it defines where they are at. But then in a way; hard logic, reason and consistent integrity ARE antipathetic to the manner in which the BK work.

Prometheus is a good analogy, I'll post his story if you care to develop it and the idea of the wounded healer?

Prometheus the Greek

We all like to be liked. Terry likes to be liked and so do I. Ex-I would say it doesn't matter to him but really it does. Making friends is not the purpose of Knowledge, the purpose of contributing to this Forum is to speak the truth as one sees it. One may make a friend or two on the way but ex-BKs are an odd lot, trust me. I know about this from 24-7 exposure to myself. Working through the subconscious mess which was the repressed, and very painful BK effect on me, is something I am doing and occassionally I write here. Guess we all have our different reasons. I remember Terry (I think) hook nose and glasses, always cheerful and shining?

I like it that Terry decided not to contribute further, then revisited the situation, and is currently contributing once more. Such is the stuff of those worth interacting with. So, Hi Terry. I understand that your life is a little upside down from my perspective though you may once again visit England which is, of course, "the right way up."

At different times I speak in favour of the BK and at others times denounce them. In this rather unique forum one's changing perspectives seem to be accommodated in a marvellous way. No topic is taboo. No one here seems to be in the business of creating hang ups, a speciality is airing those totally unnecessary stresses that were, and still are being created, whilst interacting with you know who.

I am so happy that I have never had such a negative effect on anyone as current you know who had on me. I see this as very good karma. In this orderly universe there is a reason for everything. It is sometimes difficult for ex-you know whos, as they work through their karma, to anticipate the day when full blown remembrance emerges. When it does, its sure that a kinder and much more balanced world will be created.

"I come from God, you must make a yukti that resolves all outstanding issues in your life, if my hardline I am better than you truth affects you negatively then thats just tough". Or "I claim all rights so I can tell you how it is, now give me your money."

Attitudes such as these will be totally outmoded. There will be no interest in fame, money, name or property or showing off; the focus will be on really helping others to help themselves. All that seek will find much much more than they ever dreamed.

What do you think of that dream Terry?

There is one thing that I would like to ask you disclose. We are obviously discussed in BK circles. There are a number of things that you have written, or attitudes, which suggest me that - despite your own personal position - you have been prep-ed or privvy to BK chit-chat about all this. Would you care to discuss that?

I have not been prepped or privy to BK chit chat. I have no idea if this web site is talked about, by whom or how much, or if there is an official "position" about it. If I get an opportunity I can ask.

Since posting here, I've been contacted by Robin Ramsey who forwarded those marveloous curios from the 40's that are in the British Museum and on this site. In particular, I noted the "divine declaration", with it's understanding of Self as God (note capital S) as the foundation of divinity - exactly what I had been trying to get across in some of my earlier postings (Atman/Paramatman = self and supreme self).

Regarding the child abuse cases. I did not mean details of the events. I meant ... "what happened" regarding the official response

I only found out about child abuse well after I'd left Gyan. I was forwarded T's letter (Brother of one victim) in early 2000's.

I can confirm the prevalence of the 'keep it in the family" policy (versus accountability) from one other issue in late 80's/early 90's - the issue itself I have forgotten now - definitely not abuse, probably political, but I remember discussing with Nirwair who said we are a family and we do not air these things publicly.

As for "Anti-BK" - as a relative newcomer to these pages, and I think a fairly impartial observer - sometimes the language & tone of a lot of postings definitely appear less as wanting to help the BKs improve their protocols and honour their teachings. Many sound angry, hateful, sometimes vengeful. All are valid emotions for participants to express. Where there are dealings with the officials, though, it can be stated that it is a public forum, free speech etc but the issues that need resolving are for the good of everyone. I agree about duty of Care policies etc for any group. I refer to earlier posts - that if you attack the decision makers, they are going to be defensive rather than co-operative. Maybe some consultation with other change agents (e.g. within the Roman Catholic church?) who have managed to get drag their institutions into the 21st century may help?

I have already given thought to redrafting Torch's letter - all it needs is editing out the extraneous, to be putting its case in fewer words, directly, clearly, concisely, and keeping to the organisational by avoiding the emotional and personal. I wonder that some replies have reacted negatively to my points on this, but do the Justice League read our debates here? You say you don't know who they are, so if someone volunteered to help, how would that happen? Surely if they are interested they'd be noting the various contributions here. Anyway, the letters are out there now.

Offtopic: On another side issue I have been curious about the PBKs et al, since some people suggest they see things more "metaphorically", is that "symbolically' or poetically? I today read up on the postings on the PBK side of this forum. I have to strongly disagree. It only reinforced my earlier opinion, that they are even more literalist than the BKs. It reminded me of some Christian literature I was given as to why the RC church is wrong, and the Eastern Orthodox is right. In Western Europe, the futile theological arguments were typified by the "number of angels that danced on the end of a pin" reference, that is now proverbial (just as "Byzantine" became adjectival). In all of this I ask - where is science, art, myth, symbol, beauty, culture? It seems to have fled or been bled dry.

Faith is an island in the setting sun. Proof is the bottom line for everyone - Paul Simon "Proof" from the sublime album "Rhythm of the Saints".

Yes John , that's me - still got the nose, but had laser surgery on the eyes years ago, now I can keep researching my topic easily when swimming at the beach (re: earlier post). I remember you fondly, and you are still way too clever for your own good! I could barely make sense of your last post because of all the asides, references, pronouns and yunohoos even in a single sentence! Nice to catch up after all these years.

Attitudes such as these will be totally outmoded. There will be no interest in fame, money, name or property or showing off; the focus will be on really helping others to help themselves. All that seek will find much much more than they ever dreamed. What do you think of that dream Terry?

Just like Leela used the term "unconscious" to mean "ignorant of", you use "dream" when you mean "hope" or "aspiration" or "ideal". Actual dreams are like real art, they reveal conflicts, tensions, fears, joys, unrealised potentials, primal instincts etc and they do this through their own language and imagery. If we literalise these, we lose the treasure of wisdom that dreams have to offer. BK and PBK Gyan destroy their own treasures through literalisation. Here's an example of what I mean - and compare it to the BK/PBK dessicated interpretations:

One of the cosmologies in Hinduism is summarised by the myth/image/symbol that the universe is all Vishnu's Dream - you may have seen the picture of Vishnu lying on a bed shaded by a 5 headed python? It translates over into Buddhism with the reclining Buddha image ... and you may be aware of quantum physics' ideas, some of whose exponents have referred to the Vedas and other Hindu imagery as poetic - not literal - representation of their theories. If Vishnu awoke the world would end - as he is the sustainer. The real sustenance of life is an unconscious process (the dream). Vishnu does not have to actively do it - if we had to consciously regulate our breathing, heartbeat, digestion, and other autonomic functions, we'd be very sick indeed, and die very young!

We know that creation of anything is the destruction of something else - Brahma = Shiva/Shankar - and that applies on the cellular level as well as the cosmic level. But no matter what we consciously think, believe or do - LIFE GOES ON (Vishnu) - be it the grass growing through the cracks in the cement or the bacteria forming on the flesh of a corpse.

It is only to serve puerile needs of the ego that such profoundly beautiful ideas are turned into literal specifics and, for example, identified directly with particular people or groups. Our arrogance is to think our particular ego forms (BK, Diety, atheist, anarchist, earthling) actually matters two bits in the universal equation. We attempt to create the conditions for immortality for ourselves, whether through pyramids or religious beliefs, creating variations and permutations, so that "I" might continue in some form or other.

Hi Terry,

Thanks for your insightful comments. How long ago did you have your laser surgery and have you noticed any downside of a laser messing around with living tissue? I wear glasses nowadays.

I agree with the notion that dreams can offer great insight into what is happening in a persons life, both physical and metaphysical. I recall a dream about the handlebars coming off my motorcycle. Checking the next morning they were so close to coming away from the frame that the bike was unroadworthy.

Myth too can be educational or poetic or can induce mystical experience if it is nurturing and surrendered to. My notion of "dream" in the context that I was writing was a shot at the process many are going through at the present time.

Much esoteric literature is openly available. It is said that the texts only make true sense to those ready to understand. Take sound for example. The BKs spent quite a bit of time chanting "OM" in the past, perhaps they still do. A loud gross sound may fill the ears and give the impression that something is happening though a gentler more refined sound can be far more effective.

If OM works it is likely that other sounds do too. Gross thought has its qualities whilst control of thought in light requires more attention. This is as it should be because one can do in a second with light what grosser should never attempt until it evolves further (Pandora's Box). Some time ago I purchased a book and read the introduction. As I turned to and began the first chapter a vocal warning "Do not proceed unless you mean to continue" was voiced. I was reading for curiousity rather than for study so I put the book down. Speech is holy until some use it.

I am not sure that the BK destroy their own treasures through literalisation though I can appreciate how it may seem so. BK methods can seem extremely arid, their standardised approach comparing unfavourably with the twists turns highs and lows crannies and mysteries of more colourful lives. There are as many Buddhism's as there are Buddhists but there is only one Raja Yoga?

The point at which creation takes place is generally much clearer with BKs than with the common man. There is less guessing as the thoughts and impulses which were jumbled and unclear have become more unified. One outcome of this process is more "awakeness." Certain conscious hitherto latent strengths can also appear. God Consciousness may be the purpose of life.

Your practice of revisiting a difficult situation is very likeable and well worth a second mention.

Since posting here, I've been contacted by Robin Ramsey who forwarded those marveloous curios from the 40's that are in the British Museum and on this site.

Yes, I asked Robin how he found out about them, because they and their contents have been very well kept secrets within the BKWSU, but I never got a straigth answer. I suspect his daughter Tamasin found them on this site and brought them to his attention.

Its interesting because Liz Hodgkinson must have found them too. She refers back to much of the material in the British Library. Hence Jayanti Kriapalani's advisor Neville Hodgkinson must have known about them. Liz would not recognise the significance. She was not that deep into it all, or deep fullstop. My guess is Neville must steered her away from the content whilst she was writing the hagiographic 'Purity and Peace'. We also heard that there was more, similar material in an Oxford University library but not what.

The details interest me because it has obviously and still is being covered up. The inner circle knows and are keeping quiet. The faith of the outer circles is based on fabrications, their faith being exploited. Unlike yourself, I do not find that acceptable or excusable 'just because we are humans', so and I am asking, "why ... what is this all for ... who is behind it ... where is it going to?". I cant say any of it has made me "angry". Some of it is, objectively tragic and disgusting.

In the early days, the Brahma Kumaris most certainly believed in the oneness of the Brahmand and the Paramatma in an Advaitist fashion. There is still the individual self though, so it seems to be 'humans, the Brahmand and no individual God (Shiva)'. "Humans are higher than God", Om Radhe said. There is still no official comment or evidence at all how and when Shiva was introduced. One would have thought it was quite a day in Madhuban when it happened and there was quite a reaction ... perhaps even another exodus.

You would appreciate how huge a contradiction to what we were told and they conceive of now ... but then you exclude the whole spiritualistic or animistic aspects of the Brahma Kumaris' practise suggesting spirits do not exist. Although we may or may not all be "One", between where we are now and that there is a vast cosmological distance and, sure as hell down here, there is a lot of weird and wonderful things going on.

Basically, it is only me that has called the PBKs' interpretations of Gyan "metaphorical" and I stand by that in the sense of expressing one thing in terms normally denoting something else.

Whereas the Brahma Kumaris interpretated Lekhraj Kirpalani's, or Shiva's, predictions of the Destruction of the World in 1976 as a literal destruction applying to others; the PBKs interpreted it as a metaphorical destruction of elements within the BK world. Whereas the BKs interpret BapDada's references to, say, Islam as referring to Mohammedans; again the PBKs interpret them as metaphorical references to elements within the BK movement ... and so on down to details of individual characters attempting to resolve apparent failures, inconsistencies and errors. Symbolically if you wish.

Yes, the PBK are also attempting to be "orthodox BKs" and have been noted for their reaction against the modernisation, corruption and abuse within the BKWSU. To a degree, I think they ought to be supported and congratulated for just that ... as in "walking your talk" to its logical end instead of selling out to Mammon like the Holy Brahmin Empire or like minded survivors coming together to suport themselves. They

Its interesting because as we write I have just seen the wedding site and pictures of Brian and Kazemaru Yukawa-Bacon and I am still reacting to that. Brian was the second high profile BK to marry last year, Marneta Viegas of Relax Kids finding her prince charming too. The Torch raised the issue of the leaderships' mix responses to follower paterning. On one hand, one could suggest this was a positive sign of normalisation. From a classical BK point of view, it is corruption and vice, poison and butchery etc.

Its a shame you wont talk about your own experiences because the handling of BK/non-BK marriages/relationships are a common and very genuine request for help we received ... generally as the non-BK sees their partner leaving them in mind first and then body possessed by the spirit of the BKWSU.

Listen back to the lyrics, I don't believe Brahmin white is our or your True Colours. The BKWSU just another world to make us crazy.

Hi Terry. How long ago did you have your laser surgery and have you noticed any downside of a laser messing around with living tissue? I wear glasses nowadays.

There is an optimum age for the surgery, as well as eye types. 30 is the ideal age, eyes have stopped growing, and a good 20 years before reading glasses are likely to be needed. At our ages, it's still possible to get good results but consult to see if you are a good candidate & what the prognosis is, in terms of years of benefit. The procedure is not unlike a trip to the dentist, but you are very sensitive for a number of days, immobilised for about 48 hrs. And for few months, there's flaring/halo around highlights (e.g. headlights at night, or subtitles on a dark screen. Its 50/50 whether it is worth it. I like being able to function without my glasses in an emergency, and going for a swim at twilight in the surf, and still see whats around me.

I recall a dream about the handlebars coming off my motorcycle. Checking the next morning they were so close to coming away from the frame that the bike was unroadworthy.

Dreams process the experiences that we are unwilling or unable to deal with consciously. And they can operate on many levels. You "knew" about the handlebars but did not act. Hence the dream. But if upon checking the handlebars they were fine, you'd look at it symbolically and ask "where am I losing my handle or ability to steer my course through life?' The important thing is - every dream has value - do not seek to explain it away with a rationalisation of why you dreamt it. In fact, it'd be negligent of a dream analyst to stop at the fact that the handlebars were faulty. It should be asked if the deeper implication also has bearing on life experience. One may be symptomatic of the other, hence the direct image.

It is said that the texts only make true sense to those ready to understand.

Like your insight with the book there, dreams too, especially transformative ones, only come when the psyche is ready to deal with the issues involved (think repressed emotions - when they appear in some form in dreams the person is ready to deal with it, unpleasant as it may be. Before that it is unwise to force the issue). The psyche is self regulating, in other words we know what we need!

I am not sure that the BK destroy their own treasures through literalisation

I am. People like you and me look beyond the literal, for the poetry and beauty and a broader horizon.But that kind of discourse is not encouraged, ,it can take the mind to places beyond the "Gyan". Let's use the Vishnu example. It is just a a story, an image. But it is universal, invested with depth and breadth, when appreciated. The BK / PBK views divest it of all those things - make it shallower, narrower, particular only to their narrative.

... many Buddhism's as there are Buddhists but there is only one Raja Yoga?

Yes. I refer you to the new thread Prometheus, Chiron and the ex-BK as the Wounded Healer. Buddha made the hero' s journey, the full cycle. Upon his return, he taught that each had the Buddha/hero nature. Each has full potential. BK/PBK teaches that only the founder ever really "gets it", and we should follow and live their story, rather than write our own, reach our own wisdom.

There is still no official comment or evidence at all how and when Shiva was introduced.

Reforming BK John asked a similar question earlier, and there's the whole racy "entering a virgin" debate with the PBKs. I replied at the time, but only later remembered something. I think it was Shiloo gave a class in the late 70's/early 80's saying that Lekhraj believed himself god, and so Shiva had to enter another to explain to him what was going on. In this case, it was Gulzar, and she was 13 at the time, and that is why she later was chosen to be the lorry of god.. This was in Karachi, not Abu. Reviewing all this, it all sounds so anecdotal and affected by the Chinese whispers syndrome, and timelines blurred, that everyone's memory is tricked . I don't think any official position could be sustainable. I'd look to old Dada's journals which have been mentioned. (The PBKs say Siva came into the business partner, not Gulzar, who is reincarnated and now their Baba. If Shiva had any sense he'd enter the body of a top TV personality like Operah Winfrey).

it is only me that has called the PBKs' interpretations of Gyan "metaphorical" ... in the sense of expressing one thing in terms normally denoting something else. Wherea [BK] predicted Destruction of the World in 1976 as a literal destruction applying to others; the PBKs interpreted it as a metaphorical destruction of elements within the BK world. .. the BKs interpret BapDada's references to...Islam as referring to Mohammedans; again the PBKs interpret them as metaphorical references to elements within the BK movement

Ha! So Funny. And so convenient! This is the opposite to literalising the mysteries and devaluing them. It is mystifying the literal and devaluing that! PBKs believe the Chariot before theirs was authentic. In Christianity, they were warned of wolves in sheep's clothing - John: Book of revelations I believe. If God is speaking, aware of future changes (like the need for the Dixit chicks to sing their songs), would he not have given open warnings, clear statements of fact, that they should look out for him?

That other John, the Baptist, was hailed as Messiah but he said, "no, look out for the real one, coming soon to a holy land near you" (... and it was his cousin. So this family thing in religious movements is a tradition. Mohammed and his descendants did it too!). Point is - why no clear statement? I am sure a rationale will be found - the highest souls will recognise the truth, etc etc.

the PBK are also attempting to be "orthodox BKs" and have been noted for their reaction against the modernisation, corruption and abuse within the BKWSU.

Like all reformist movements, just as the Om Mandli was a reformist movement. Any structure, like an ego or an organisation or a God, seeks status quo, change is either embraced - a sign of health and well being, or it comes invasively, from its "shadow".

Its a shame you wont talk about your own experiences because the handling of BK/non-BK marriages/relationships are a common and very genuine request for help we receive

Each pairing is unique. I will give it some thought.

Listen back to the lyrics, I don't believe Brahmin white is our or your True Colours.

Finally!!!! And I did listen - you're a sentimental fool sometimes.

I asked Robin how he found out about them, (BK British Library artifacts) [because they and their contents have been very well kept secrets within the BKWSU, but I never got a straigth answer.

Hmmm ... I don't recall the question. Though I appreciate the Scots spelling of 'straight'. However, to clarify, I do recall that I typed in Brahma Kumaris on the BL site in Australia some years ago, and various BK items turned up. Early in 2007, when I was back in London, I trotted down to Kings Cross and checked them out. And made copies of all I could find. This was prior to them appearing on this site, which has done a handsome job of presenting them.

One 1949 poster was my Christmas Card for this year to friends, most of whom did not know of its existence and were astonished, amazed and delighted ... and some felt confused, of course. The naivette of the artwork was much admired. Another poster, circa 1943, will soon be sent as an Easter Card.

Well, all that doesn't have much to do with the heart of this thread I have to say. And maybe as a nominated BK this needs to be on the other site anyway. But then it won't connect back to ex-l's observation will it? Anyway there you are.

Love from Robin.

Hey Robin! This thread is named for me, so until Admin may decide otherwise, you are welcome to add your bit. And other BKs contribute on this section, as I think ex's have done on the other pages. The posters and newspaper ads you refer to, and other similar documents, from what I am told here are either denied or sought to be covered up by the Yagya. Is that your experience, or have you had any other feedback from recipients of your cards?

Again thanks to everyone for the eye-opening site. It has confirmed things I thought and felt for a long time and brought me a good deal of peace.

Having browsed a fair bit and applied "collyrium" (love that word, thank you Jagdish) what has finally become plain for me is:

(1) The fact that something is compelling, even incredibly vividly compelling, doesn't mean that it's true.

(2) The end NEVER justifies the means. SHAME SHAME SHAME !!!

Now I am wondering whether the fact that something is compellingly bad means that it's entirely false. In other words, as I prepare finally to throw out all this bathwater, could there actually be a baby in there somewhere?

Hey Frisbee! Out for a spin? (sorry, not so funny huh?)

I think if you read even just this thread in full, there are a lot of good things to take from the different contributions. The thrust of your question is at least answered by saying - it was a step along the way. If you learned to meditate properly (and I am not sure all who attend Raja Yoga actually do) you will have a skill that can be applied. Not the soul/god thing necessarily, but the ability to direct and hold a thought and feel what is 'behind' it.

Other treasures too, but yes, a lot of water around the baby, easy to lose sight of it!

When did you come over to London Robin ... and, yes, would you care to tell us more about the discussions within the leadership of the BKWSU and others about the history?

Why is the BKWSU still pushing out the same old number about "1936 ... Shivoham, Shivoham" etc and what is it doing to reform these?

The posters ... from what I am told here are either denied or sought to be covered up by the Yagya. Is that your experience, or have you had any other feedback from recipients of your cards?

No, Terry, that is not what I said ... why are you are always twisting people's words here?

I said they and the history HAD been covered up. It HAS been covered up. But it currently still IS being covered up to newcomers and outsiders and, yes, I think most BKs have no doubt that the Adi Dev version is true.

What I am personally expecting is for BK Tamasin Ramsay's Ph.D to be the kind of "official acceptable" revelation of a slightly more factual history written in an acceptable manner ... no questioning of years of cover up and deception.

These days, if one is running a "University" and new information comes out, one bound to pull the old books off the shelves, remove the errors and publish the corrections; Lekhraj Kirpalani was not 60 in 1936 when Shiva was meant to have entered him ... he wasn't not the sleeping partner ... there was no Shiva until after 1950 ... they thought Destruction was in WWII, 1950, 1976 and so on ... its all fake or whitewash. Newcomers don't even hear about Destruction in the mid-1980s - 90s now, its Transformation, did not you know?

The detailed significance of the falsified history won't interest you as you are not a BK any more. It does not really matter to the leaders of the BKWSU, as the hagiographic version "works" just fine ... and they probably have old loads of books to sell for cash.

Strict BKs, and PBKs will, should and are very interested. What is faith if its foundations are based on falsehoods? Its really thanks to the PBKs that elements of a bigger truth survive ... and the BKWSU's response is to bannish and beat them. Its probably all beyond the 'foot solider' BKs who are so conditioned to just do what Dadi tells them and wave the flag they are given.

For exiting-BKs, or we that occupy an ambiguous middle ground, it is of great signficance ... not so much for its historic or spiritual worth ... but for its concrete evidencing of the typically deceptive, manipulating and amateurish mode of operation within the BKWSU leadership. The 'They' that claim to be the 8 or 108 and royalty of the 'Age of Truth' turn out to be another bunch of false messiahs ... perhaps even their 'spirit guides' too because the Murlis don't add up either. Although I say, "the history is fake", the spiritualism is not.

Simply put, yet again both the following and the general public and are have been deceived. The only thing we can be absolutely sure of ... is the money and property is going in one direction.

And thank you Frisbee for the breath of fresh air as you whizzed by ... the end does not justify the means.

could there actually be a baby in there somewhere?

Thanks terry, I guess I meant "could THE baby actually be in there somewhere?" The BKs have always claimed to have THE baby, not A baby. One would hate to throw out THE baby with the bathwater.