Hello from Terry - The Power of Anonymity

Whether what happened in 1936, the year dot or 2500 years ago is significant is up to the individual.

The stuff of faith lives outside the domain of reason. You see two boxers in the ring, both cross themselves and each believes that God is on their side. "Hey, wait a mo who is helping him?" The boxers never think that.

Sometimes the baby is so small that it shouldn't have been bathed at all but should have been washed in a jug. (An old Southend on Sea song). Every parent knows that their baby is the one and the baby recognises and trusts their parents. If you embrace and feel inspired by the values of your family and the way that they express them you are "at home."

In Raja Yoga, the significance of the descent of God is taught, as are the components of that descent. Creative thinking brings transformation.

In Christianity there were three kings following a star that guided them to Christ's birth. Imagine, a birth so significant that a star would point out the route to follow. The three wise Magi had lost their reason but they had their faith.

The significance of each moment is often out of view, many years can separate "significant moments." The many moments in between had their own significance too. The yogi can be aware of the significance of each moment.

It is the same Baba you are meeting now, and the same parents with the same karma. You made the same mess and had the same haircut. Each itch is identical to the same itch 5000 years ago, as is each fart.

Throughout history some have thought that it was best to keep women on a tight leash. Bap Dada thinks that way. A bullying older Sister can and does make hell. Were a poll taken here you would find that just a few totally dedicated individuals have given so much trouble to others that what is seen as service could very easily be seen as the work of the DEVIL. It is said in the Bible that the devil will come in clothes of light. If the Devil were to roast you how would he do it?

One effective way is to make you think that for all eternity you will miss out on a full inheritance because you are fatally flawed. He would let you eat yourself up day after day. Once this type of mental surgery is performed the prognosis is poor. Its done once, if successful the victim does it to themselves every day. Have a long hard look, did the BK do this to you? Which individual screwed you up? This ain't a knock the BK forum, it is a lets speak the truth about the BK one. So come on folks open the floodgates and speak your truth. Let's see what is really going on.

I do hope no one is shocked about the possibility raised here. If you are you obviously haven't imbibed the benefits of spinning The Cycle so get back to it and make yourself as tough as old boots. Yes, my friends, exactly 5000 years ago I spoke the same words through the same computer on the same forum and if you believe that you will believe anything.

Now let us pray a poker prayer - on your knees and close your eyes, or sit crosslegged with eyes open.

Lets begin,

If ya do not gimme a royal flush I am not gonna believe in ya annymore, but a full house or luxury flat would do for now.
If ya do not gimme a royal flush I am not gonna believe in ya annymore, but a full house or luxury flat would do for now.
If ya do not gimme a royal flush I am not gonna believe in ya annymore, but a full house or luxury flat would do for now.

Repetition is important, the prayer should be said with sincerity, gratitude and full faith.

Hey Frisbee! Out for a spin?

Let's discus silly wordplay later, now I am gahn dahn plug .

there is no way to empirically prove one way or the other ...

... and there is no need really to. "Balance of probability" is good enough. There is plenty of substantial evidence to show what "God" or not, being a BK does to people and how the leadership acts. Whether it is "God" is to miss the point. You are encouraged to put your life, property, money, future security not into God ... but into the hands of the leadership. Show me a BK with strength, independence or even integrity latterly ... and I will show you an ex-BK.

Back to the questions above ... I, and I am sure others ... will be very interested to hear from Shri Shri Robin Ramsay Bhai of the BKWSU leadership's response to the historical revision and general reforms, and his own personal development. In another topic perhaps ... why it is taking them so long to change and correct matters? It would seem that they are a little high-handed about it all.

I respect Robin's down-to-earth and softly-softly approach and his wisdom in dealing with the so-called divine family. And, of course, because of his status, wealth and previous commitment, the BK leadership will have a vest interested in keeping him alongside them whereas they will rebuff 'Truth' if it comes from a less appealing source. I wonder if he, himself, is asking questions about the veracity of the bigger picture.

Surely the truth brings one closer to truth?

Hey Frisbee and John M.,

I am never sure from the different ways you write in your posts John M, whether you think the BK Gyan contains the "truth", or is a load of bathwater with a baby in it somewhere, or whether its all grey water for grey matter. Some posts seem very "Gyan", others seem dismissive. This last one seems to go from one to the other! is it that you don't preface a statement with the position you are presenting if it's not your own? Please explain.

Back to the baby. In the langauge of Alchemy, metaphor and symbology, the idea of "the baby in bathwater" is amazingly profound, probably why it became a proverb and a shorthand for what would otherwise take many words to explain. And in this case for Frisbee, as he/she brought it up, it is particularly apt. I said earlier - "It is your baby". I should have said - "the baby is you". Allow me to reiterate my main thesis;

The "power" or "love" or "light" that is felt in (BK or other) meditation as coming from "God" is actually coming from a part of the self not usually accessed in "normal" consciousness.

"Baby/bathwater" - an alchemical/Jungian view

Water represents the unconscious/ emotional/ psychic/life-giving aspects of self.
Boundless water, like an ocean, is the collective unconscious.
Bounded water like a pool or tub, is the personal unconscious.
A living thing in the water is something manifesting from that level.
A baby is a new life, fully formed (no longer gestating) ready to grow and fulfill its potential.

A problem arises when, whatever the catalyst was that allowed us to begin to access a new area of growth (baby), this catalyst takes over the process or is identified as being the process. What is the catalyst in this context? Well, a couple of things.

One is, that by going to the RYC we are in effect saying we are ready to explore another aspect of our life, the "going there" is a catalyst. The other is learning a meditation technique and a philosophy that takes us quickly beyond our old life, our old ego consciousness. We are "ripe for the picking' as others have said. We identify the new area of experience - the baby - with the place we attended - the new teaching, the practice. We are drawn in.

The symbols in Raja Yoga, e.g. Egg, Circle, Diamond represent "self", "wholeness", "quintessence" (as in 'crystallised" or 'concentrated"). They are universal symbols and powerful if used appropriately. But all these things, and these people, were midwives for the baby, not the other parent. If anything they become the step-parent as we enter into that 'family'. And they give bad advice for raising this child.

A bad teacher tries to bamboozle a student and keep him/her a student, to maintain that relationship, to create a co-dependency. The good teacher tries to, well, to repeat a quote

A student repays a teacher badly by remaining a student

The wisdom of the latter quote is that change and growth must take place, and so the teacher gives the student the ability to learn and move on. Most gurus and groups try to keep the follower as the follower. They stifle the new life that was emerging. They turn the dynamic into the sedate, the creative into the conforming, the inquiring into the accepting. You become comfortably numb. You have to break down the wall of this new ego construct. And, if you reflect, this pattern goes on right through our lives, as we outgrow our old sense of ourselves, and mature.

OK Terry,

Taken as a gift from God and deeply understood Gyan is close to "the bees knees."

Whilst I seem to see reasonably clearly the elevated states of being and action that the study of Gyan engenders the lack of concern demonstrated by the clergy when the effect of the teachings on some students goes awry seems more like the devil's work than God's. This happens far too often.

It is easy to understand that the BK view acquisition of wealth as being helpful in Baba's work. Their methods of acquiring it often seem dubious and occassionally they verge on the criminal.

The marvel of Gyan is that each person has all that they need to plumb its depths. The abdication of personal responsibility through unquestioning obedience seems most unhealthy. When war criminals are put on trial it is no longer sufficient defence to say "I was ordered to do it."

What we are dealing with is knowlege of The Cycle. At one time a person may consider God but in heaven all are atheists. Both conditions are potentialities here and now, I guess it all depends on what part of The Cycle one decides to manifest. My views are those of a shapeshifter that enquires anew each day.

Happy?

Hi Terry,

The partial quote ."... the effect of the teachings ... seems more like the devil's work than God's" seems to be putting words into my mouth "... the lack of concern demonstrated by the clergy when the effect of the teachings on some students goes awry seems more like the devil's work than God's" is what I said.

Each day presents a new challenge, for me the method for that day is mostly created on "the fly." it seems that the energy in each thought is what Gyan is all about. Whilst Gyan is initially intellectual, the intellect being a kind of rudder, it is the other aspects of ourselves that give Gyan its magic. As an optician tries different lenses in order to achieve clear sight, the Gyani tries this and that. A person who has continually experimented for many years and not got it quite right could easily wake up one morning and find that all treasures are his. I leave the 8, 108 or even 1,000,018 notions to the high flyers, my aim is at best to make the most of each situation and to recognise opportunity as it arises. Who knows, there may come a day when I find myself in the most elevated company, if the BK's are around at that time it would be a bonus.

There are stories of yogis who appear only to those who are ready to benefit from their company, those who learn to turn disaster into triumph seem likely candidates for such exalted interactions.

It is no fun for me to criticise or argue with anyone, I merely share my thoughts and truth in the hope that something resonates usefully with someone.

With what does my heart feel most comfortable? I think this was your question? Answer - affirming the worth of everyone I meet.

With what does my heart feel most comfortable? I think this was your question? Answer - affirming the worth of everyone I meet.

That's beautiful. And I do remember that about you, the time and dignity invested in every conversation. Sorry about the partial quote - just saving space, not meant to emphasise anything.

What gets you "there" these days? I get off by sitting on my back balcony with my guitar and playing for the sunset or stars, swimming in the surf at any time of day or night, and lately having stimulating exchanges via this forum.

Well Terry,

I enjoy table tennis, chess, good conversation, the company of friends, meeting new people and a good bath. I eat yoghurt for breakfast but am looking into to a possible macrobiotic diet. At different times I read and write quite a bit. My main activity is preparing for the holocaust which seems to be running a little late, no complaints as I need all the extra time I can get.

Add to that swans, herons, parrots, canaries, swallows, owls, trees, air, water, snow, ice, moss hustle and bustle, markets and forgiving the BK. Oh! last but not least my dear pal Louis, we explore the coastline and woods of Wales together for a few days every three months or so, he has the best communication skills I have ever encountered in a black labrador. Whenever I mention Destruction to him he wags his tail very happily, he is definitely ready.

Why debate scraps when there is a meal at the table? The Subtle Region can be seen, this is not theory, a notion, an idea - it can actually be seen. When the divine eye is opened the material world vanishes, there is black ether and the life force is white. The silent song sung there is one of grace holiness ecstasy and many other qualities one moment of which is better than many lifetimes of human experience. Beings there are made of light, like a fountain the colour is milky white. This is a subtle spiritual thing, and is non material.

Some say that the soul does not exist, when they say this they are often talking about the soul as a fixed entity. These people do concede that there is something intangible that is subject to change and they say it is not a soul simply because it does change.

The BK Ace is the silent song of the Subtle Region, students of meditation experience this around more advanced meditators. This silent song full of power peace ecstasy and holiness is called "Baba's message." Most individuals experience something much less than these qualities in their day to day lives. On the one hand, there is a point overflowing with everything and, on the other, a point that is far, far, far from its full potential.

It is often best not to expose individuals to the full might of the Subtle Region, better to spoon feed, give the student time to make effort and gradually increase exposure to this highest of all communications. The Murli gives directions on how a mere human mind can attain this seemingly impossible state of being. Until there is accurate insight into the possible attainment there is not the necessary determination to succeed.

All BKs have heard the analogy that only a golden cup can hold the milk of the lioness. Unless one's cup is golden all one makes is noise. Someone help us to gain more insight.

Someone help us to gain more insight.

What about those allies and mentors you mentioned earlier? Swans, herons, parrots, canaries, swallows, owls, trees, air, water, snow, ice, moss ... the coastline and woods of Wales ... Louis ... "he wags his tail very happily, he is definitely ready"! THAT sounds like where your heart wisdom centre is found, the ''there'', of which I was I was asking.

AUM

- mind body breath
- waking dreaming stillness
- sat chit anand
- be here now

Is the main meal you refer to, no? A nicely balanced one it is too! It is being, living, doing. I think this is the wisdom your heart friends know and share. I am sure you hear the song of grace holiness and ecstasy when you sit silently with them as well. I know I do.

The BK Ace is the silent song of the Subtle Region, students of meditation experience this around more advanced meditators. This silent song full of power peace ecstasy and holiness

True, it is an amazing experience. The first thing (that at least used to be) taught in meditation is that it is an experience inherent within each of us. As I was fortunate enough to have experienced it a number of times before ever having attended Raja Yoga centres, I could easily agree. When I had those same experiences at the centre, I chose to 'invest' another meaning into it, that it was a confirmation of the path I should follow. I could easily have interpreted it another way, but I was young and naive.

I continue to access that ''zone' when I choose to, despite having jettisoned the baggage. Then there are all the other mystics and poets of the ages ...

My Motto for today to share in terms of this thread's comments:

Spiritual Wisdom belongs to the past - the present is about Self-Discovery.

One of my favourite books is "Way of the White Clouds," white cloud being symbolic in Tibetan lore of the creative power of the mind. I like Terry's mentioning of the "measuring of each thought," do the thoughts I think aid or hamper me in my quest? Also, who or what is the creator? In the world we have maps to guide us to a chosen place, I think spiritual maps can be quite handy also. In BK terms "the jewels of knowledge" make up a map. It seems that there will come the day when we will all have a birds eye view of the map of possibilities and go to the place we choose when we choose. This map is within us, we can learn to access it.

The BKs talk about and I am sure experience "original sanskaras." A state where all the dross is gone (whether it be sin, stress or a combination of these). There is a story about choosing the right chest, one is made of gold another silver and another lead. The lead one was the best one. I recall someone saying that the BK's look very dull at times, this it was explained is because they are truly burning off karma in their meditations. Deep meditation, "tapasya" is best learned gradually otherwise an avalanche of karma can come tumbling down. Whilst this kind of thing is ultimately beneficial it can be very difficult to cope with at the time.

There is a prize, talk of God's inheritance serves to point out a way of accessing this marvellous area of ourselves. Gradually we build up our strengths and learn to access what Bap Dada is talking about. A wonderful game of merge and emerge is played by those who are able to move away from the somewhat hypnotic power of the senses and the world. I can relate to Gurdjieff's notion that we consist of various personalities and our work is to unify them into one whole. The idea is that the part of us that promises can be and often is a little out of touch from the part that carries out that promise etc.etc. Whereas the attention of some is mainly external the yogi's attention is both inward and outward at the same time.

I have wondered if the voices that many schizophrenics hear are a vocalised expression of the different personalities existing in a person. If such is the case many who are seen as "ill" have in fact the most marvellous opportunity of integrating themselves into a unified and blessed whole. I guess this paragraph is mainly written for Terry as he in particular seems at home with this taboo topic created by the uncreative thought of some pioneer and well meaning shrinks. Could it be that the voice aspect is somehow built into the human psyche? A kind of fail safe?

Yogis have identified the speech area of the person as existing in the top left area of the brain, many schizophrenics report a sensation in that area during their voice hearing episodes. Joseph Murphy found some similarities between the mystical and psychotic worlds, perhaps the bit that makes it mystical is the degree of well being experienced. When a person is busy uncovering the marvellous things about themselves they are much more likely to experience feelings of well being than the person who treats themselves with suspicion and or unkindness. It truly is a game of merge and emerge.

of my favourite books is "Way of the White Clouds," white cloud being symbolic in Tibetan lore of the creative power of the mind. I like Terry's mentioning of the "measuring of each thought," do the thoughts I think aid or hamper me in my quest?

Not only in Tibetan lore. Most things connected to the element of air, like birds, like clouds, are representations of the mind/thought part of ourselves.

Your take on the "measuring of each thought" is interesting. One would then be mainly conscious of whatever the "quest" was. It may be a good starting point in a meditation. I was referring to both the latin root "med"- measure, and also the idea of only letting thoughts emerge slowly, one at a time, and observe them, not just letting the mind wander. The purpose is to become silent and still, so "being self" rather than "thinking of" self.

I have wondered if the voices that many schizophrenics hear are a vocalised expression of the different personalities existing in a person. If such is the case many who are seen as "ill" have in fact the most marvellous opportunity of integrating themselves into a unified and blessed whole ... Could it be that the voice aspect is somehow built into the human psyche?

The first part of the above quote - well, yes. That has been gone into at length. The 2nd and 3rd sentences - we all have the ability to discover, identify and explore the different sides of ourselves and to integrate, but the "illness" is when it's gone chaotic - the unconscious has overwhelmed the consciousness. You seem to romanticise the idea of "accessing all areas". There are traditional and modern ways of doing what you imply, most are dangerous. I would not wish schizophrenia on anyone. I'd prefer honouring Apollo and Dionysus equally.

There have been huge strides in the understanding and treatment of schizophrenia in the last decade or two. Just as ulcers are now recognised as the result of a certain bacteria, rather than "stress" related, so too, schizophrenia, earlier seen as an extreme psychological "split", is now recognised as a neuro-chemical imbalance. The misfiring of synapses. What is experienced is akin to hearing multiple radio stations at once, and not being able to "choose" to stay tuned on one. And that's only the aural side. That is not to say there are no psychological causes or results. There are congenital predispositions, and a number of things that are recognised as contributing factors and potential triggers. All of this was still not known in the 1960's and 70's.

The slight in "the uncreative thought of some pioneer and well-meaning shrinks" is ill-informed.

Hi Terry,

Fair comment. You have quite solid views, possibly from the experience of your most unfortunate friend. It is well known that no mattter what scalpel you use the intangible what we are cannot be seen with physical eyes. It makes sense that those who do see with physical eyes could theorise and work on the basis that wonky synapses were the cause. One person will treat the soul, another will see the person as a chemical entity. As you are self taught I guess your comments about ignoring a slight come from a place other than defending your own position, but where? As you have not invited further comment I infer that your view is authoritative but pray, where did this authority come from?

Kindest regards,

In Australia the stats are that 1 in 5 people will experience a mental health crisis in their life. And as a relatively high proportion of them may seek out meditation and spiritual practices for 'relief", it is important that organisations that are likely to find themselves dealing with them have a protocol for when it as it arises, and connections with trained professionals.

I know a number of people with either schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. (These are now being discussed as possibly the same condition, just defined by degree. A particular protein has been identified in the condition, and new research is happening).

I am not lumping all mental health issues in the one basket here. I agree that the first resort to medication is often misguided, but I also know that for some conditions, getting the right medication at the right dosage ( a quest in itself) once achieved, transforms lives. The dysfunctional brain is no different to a dysfunctional heart or kidney. When it is physically unable to do its job properly ... when you see someone trying to keep their self respect together, not lose their jobs and home, not withdraw completely from society and into their condition - man, that is a battle and a half. Your and my efforts are petty and bourgeois in comparison.

Other conditions, like depression and neuroses, I believe can be better treated in the long term with what is now called "depth psychology". Medication can merely reinforce the ego function, alleviating the symptoms, and not deal with the unconscious dynamic at the base of it.