Hello from Terry - The Power of Anonymity

Well, OK, a monk marrying a nun then

No, we were neither monk nor nun at the time of marriage, had not been for a number of years. Hope that is finally clear.

When loaded 'BK Speak' like "benefit" arises, I must admit my alarm bells start ringing. What does that really mean ... how do we measure it ...

Not sure of the context of this "benefit" you mention - it means does them good basically. Was good at that time. I have posted opinions on this in general terms earlier in this topic. I took a lot of benefit in my early years - learned a number of self disciplines, skills and ways of thinking that a less demanding lifestyle would probably not offer. I also got to meet you before you were (in)famous!

I stayed a BK probably twice as long as I should have. Mainly my own fault for not understanding how to listen to myself more deeply - a skill I then studied and used to help me transition out of that life and replace that way of thinking. The institution itself does not say to anyone, "you are no longer taking benefit here, time to go" but then again neither do most health practitioners recommend another modality. If you go to a herbalist they don't say, "hey what you need is acupuncture go to them! They just take your money and give you their product". (except John Morgan who has been banned by both BKs and by ex-BKs - some kind of record! Stand up and take a bow JM, probably proves you are on the right path!! Now if you can work your way through the PBKs Vishnu etc and be kicked out by them, that'd be unbeateable!

Question: were you one of the generations of BKs who were directly or indirectly encouraged either by the Seniors or peer pressure NOT to pursue real academic qualifications,

When I left High School, I turned down the opportunity to do a B.A. Instead I deferred all plans, explored ASC, then completed a Diploma course in Film & TV production. Then became BK. BKs were keen to have a "filmmaker" in their ranks and encouraged me, very occasionally financing something too (otherwise from my own funds). They still encourage the ever growing number of BKs who have skills in that area and hope for a blockbuster film that will spread the word! (Ironic given the teachings about SIN-ema. I used to sneak out and go to the BFI theatre to watch Kurosawa, Satyajit Ray, Wertmuller, Herzog et al.) At that time I was more like a keen amateur really, learning my craft practically. My professional development may have been compromised, but cannot say that for sure, as I learnt a hell of a lot doing "service" projects and working in ancillary professions, getting a wider experience.

One definite thing that happened was - around 1979-80, based on other background and experience, I was offered the position of Head of Catering at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden. Itself one of those jobs that sounds grander than it is, but would easily have led to a productive career in the hospitality industry, 5 star hotels etc. I mistakenly asked Dadi Janki for her thoughts. As it was an early start, she advised that as I would miss morning class, in her opinion not to take it. That might have changed my life direction - or not, who can say. I may have quit, or got the sack within a short while, and it would have made no difference at all.

I suppose the question to ask ourselves is - am I happy with the person I am now, in which case the past is part of that. If not, do something about it NOW.

OK, "ex-nun marries ex-monk from same order", you both knew the score. I wonder how long the BKs were holding out thinking that you will come "back to Baba" or do service in other ways? Apparently the spirit of Lekhraj Kirpalani, via Gulzar, is still asking his son Narayan when he is going to come and do service ...! (No answer necessary, to be honest).

But I would say that Janki (especially back then) does not really do "in her opinion", does she terry? I think you are being misrepresentative of the way it is here.

Its normally called "Shrimat" within the BKWSU, or "going to take Shrimat" in full (which is what you would have done at that time being a faithful BK), and equal to the opinions of God, is not it? Guaranteed free of karma and full of success if you follow ... allegedly.

I am on the road right now but I have not heard that john morgan "got banned". Even I have been "banned" ... well, actually "suspended". Its more like being told to chill out on the bench for a while when you are going too far or causing too much work for the moderators. I thought he was asked to keep all his BK stuff on the BK/PBK forum and leave this one for ex-BK related stuff which is fair enough. Personally, I agree with that.

I could not care about BK style "traffic control" any more but folks do need to practise lane discipline otherwise the forum becomes a mess. See post in the Admin forum; "on topic/off topic, on forum/off forum". Some folks make a big scene claiming all sorts of stuff and then go, others construct a situation in which they have to be booted or cant come back to. Others just drift away elegantly, a few could do with a push. Its just like life.

I would say that Janki (especially back then) does not really do "in her opinion", does she terry?

The italics were mine - the reason was to imply that, as one has already gone to her for advice, she only has to give her opinion and it will be followed, otherwise why go to her? A wiser person would at the very least follow that with, "but it is your decision and there are other views you may wish to consider." All she has to do for the acolyte is pronounce her point of view, in this case that morning class was paramount. The acolyte will follow (pardon the tautology). I should have made my meaning clearer.

I have not heard that john morgan "got banned" ... I thought he was asked to keep all his BK stuff on the BK/PBK forum

Whatever the truth of it, it's funnier the other way (to get banned by all denominations of the Brahma Kumaris church - and the ex-BK forum!). The off topic stuff - well, I think John M (and others) often did not link his ideas to the topic directly, a little too indirect. I had to often think harder to see a link - I even PM'd this to him once saying that he should not presume others can see the link, and write some sentence to connect his ideas back to topic. But I am sure he is not raising a sweat over it.

from the topic "Another BK suicide - open letter to Jayanti" in response to Rayna's post, which was essentially BK dogma "Well Ratna.... You should be ashamed of yourself! may Dharamraj cut of your head! ....oops, you don't have one".

Jannisder, that image is so accurate. Since I began studying and practicing Dream Analysis, the image of a decapitated person, or a person whose head is not connected to the body has come up a number of times (both for myself and for others). It relates to the disconnect a person is living out, because they live according to a "belief" or "philosophy" rather than the reality, the natural or the earthy. The energy is upward, into the head, away from the earth.

It's sometimes said that people who see celibacy as integral to spirituality are only spiritual from the waist up. The BK practice of soul consciousness "raises the bar higher" so the image of being "detached from the body" manifests this way to tell the dreamer they are living "out of touch" with their bodies. Given that body/nature is feminine, the decapitated body is usually female in a man's dream.

This scene was part of a major dream I had as I was exiting Gyan. I am running out of a large hotel. I come across Meryl Streep and Faye Dunaway lying straight out slightly levitated above couches in the hotel lobby, heads are separated from body (no neck) and the body trembling as if a current was holding it there in a kind of stasis (above couch and head in position). I see there is nothing I can do for them, and run out.

It reminded me of a scene from a movie Meryl Streep was in with Goldie Hawne - not Faye Dunaway. I have done a minor edit on this photo to give you an idea of what I saw (facial expressions similar).

death becomes her.jpg (37.89 KiB) Viewed 15665 times

The analysis of this part of the dream was exactly that I had separated myself from the natural and the feminine (but as I was exiting the hotel at the time - a hotel is a temporary residence - so I was moving on. It was temporary. I described my associations of Meryl Streep and Faye Dunaway as beautiful, mature, wise, sexy, vivacious, talented. Those aspects of myself were definitely not manifesting at that time in my life.).

A practicing BK from London visited me in the late '90s. He'd had a dream that he and two other "Brothers'' are living in a flat in a high rise (means live above the earth, disconnected from it). Some women are coming in to the flat for a party. They decapitate them one by one and throw them over the balcony. At the time of the dream he is still "inhabiting" that space. He has to actively do the decapitating. It's part of living there. He was shaken by the analysis, and quickly pushed it away - dismissing it as just a dream (which is what people who don't want to be honest with themselves do).

Another couple of cases of this have been with non-BKs, but similar issues (spiritual lifestyle).

Interesting!!

Further to the last post - it also struck me last night how suicide by hanging is the same expression, or image, of the head/body split. Ranjana's premeditated method of suicide was, I am sure, a conscious statement (jumping from the 5th floor of a building).

Esther's method of hanging herself was probably not thought out as much, but maybe it was an unconscious "acting out" of the cause of the despair, this same snapping once the tension of the head/body split is too great. I understand there have been a number of other suicides by hanging too. It is incredibly sad.

Further to the last post - it also struck me last night how suicide by hanging is the same expression, or image, of the head/body split. Ranjana's premeditated method of suicide was, I am sure, a conscious statement (jumping from the 5th floor of a building). Esther's method of hanging herself was probably not thought out as much, but maybe it was an unconscious "acting out" of the cause of the despair, this same snapping once the tension of the head/body split is too great.

Do you mean she did not stop to fully consider the symbolic value of the act before she did it!?! May be a final, brutal death was the only way she could rid herself of all the BK related mental illness in her head? May be if she still believed someone else could help her she would still be alive?

Thank you for finally tuning in and starting to take seriously what we are doing here, terry. I heard about this suicide a few weeks ago but did not want to post until matters were confirmed by others. I would prefer more factual information about it.

There is no doubt this death has coloured my recent feelings towards Brahma Kumarism and those wishing to romanticise or apologise for it. My guess it was more about loss of face, an admittance of failure ... and to think she probably believed it meant that she would have to repeat it every 5,000 Years.

Thank you for finally tuning in and starting to take seriously what we are doing here, terry.....

I have always taken this seriously. It has often been educational, often off target too. I like to keep objectivity and perspective, and a bit of humour, any of which may infuriate someone who is passionate about things. Humour, passion and objectivity are all needed in life, and are part of wisdom in my view.

Obviously, by the January the 18th date, Esther was trying to say something to the Brahma Kumaris that they were not hearing....

The date - 18th January - was always a strange experience for me. Sometimes there were raised expectations of the kind of experience one should be having, other times a deep reflection about it all (Gyan etc). Being the personality I am, it was often an iconoclast's dream (an artifice of meaning waiting to be demolished).

Often anniversaries (especially Christmas) can be a flashpoint for despair, feelings of loneliness and alienation, eruptions of emotions and feuds, as things unresolved are highlighted by the passing of time. Whether the date was meant to "send a message" by Esther, or was a trigger into a deeper despair for whatever reason, we will never know. Unless there is a suicide note - and i am not sure how that could ever be found out.

Do you mean she did not stop to fully consider the symbolic value of the act before she did it!?! May be a final, brutal death was the only way she could rid herself of all the BK related mental illness in her head?

Who knows what she thought? Whatever you believe - whether in reincarnation, afterlife of any sort, or no soul, no afterlife, in all cases - Death is the dissolution of ego, the end of consciousness of this life.

I can comprehend a believer might 'take the gamble' if this life feels unbearable. This next thought fills me with dread, maybe hoping to reincarnate somewhere else away from the BKs, being too "ashamed" to leave "publicly". To lose face.

(I posted this reply here as i don't want to sully the other topic with side issues or speculation and conjecture.)

and to think she probably believed it meant that she would have to repeat it every 5,000 Years.

This aspect is well, uhm ... interesting. I had a friend who was studying a bit of BK Gyan and then killed himself by driving into a highway pillar at 160km/hr. He had just experienced a relationship breakup and couldn't handle the emotional pain any longer. He had said to me that, considering the 5000 Year Cycle repeats, it was better to die. Then at least he'd have the exact same relationship to look forward to again in another 5000 years and wouldn't suffer past that point needlessly ever again. He used this 'Knowledge" (sister in charge) to keep himself 'happy' I suppose. If that's what happiness does for one, I'd rather not be.

I had a friend who was studying a bit of BK Gyan and then killed himself by driving into a highway pillar at 160km/hr. ... He used this 'Knowledge" (sister in charge) to keep himself 'happy' I suppose.

Yes, that is the point I am attempting to make in the other topic - that the teachings, no matter how well they are explained and taught, have huge potential for screwing fragile people up even more.

This potential needs to be recognised, with structures or protocols put in place to help people who are not experiencing supersensuous joy, or any kind of joy for that matter (not hard to see for most people but within BKs, the barely functioning look is kind of normal. And that would have to include an admission that the teachings are not absolute, that a better life can be had outside of the BKs, and one should follow that instinct if it is right.

But, I know there are huge paradoxes for a "Gyani soul" to deal with here, whether they are the one "suffering" or whether they are the one advising. I know there are some BKs who'd be able to "advise" such a change of direction, but we all know how important sincerity is, and I am not sure how sincere they could be. Without it, there would still be the tinge of "failure" projected.

I think that is why they would need to work with non-BKs, or ex-BKs, or even "cooperative" people who know BK doesn't stand for Bees Knees.

Considering this threads title I also am seeing that so long as one is 'teaching' something (as in this case BKWSU Gyan) then it becomes one's own archetype, or power-base. And then ... something ... goes horribly wrong (and a core concept of BKWSU life is to always 'teach' The Knowledge to whoever is in your path).

It's as if one suddenly no longer has any power to draw on, to live off, to 'obtain energy from' etc etc. Truth dawning about one's power-base can be totally debilitating indeed, as we have seen these last few days. In fact, 'truth' emerging in some ways, can be too extreme to handle and, unless one quickly finds one's own internal power source, there has to be huge internal emotional and mental conflict coming up.

Only when these horrid stories are posted do I sometimes remember for myself how tough it was to leave the BKWSU's camp when I did. Thank God I did.

Paulkershaw, the response to your post whirring in my mind will have to wait for another time, it would take a while.

I want to reply here to ex-l from the other thread (Another suicide) which I feel is distracted by discussing this subject there

there are two types of "qualified" individuals. That is, individuals qualified to talk. a) academics and medical/healing practitioners, and b) patients or victims ... Are you a qualified individual? ... in your studies or recovery, did you undergo long term or any psychotherapy? ...

ex-l - I am sure I have answered this, obviously not to your satisfaction (which seems difficult). here goes:

No, I have not undergone any psychotherapy at all in the way we are discussing. Yes, I see life as an ongoing process which, with a certain attitude, might be called psychotherapy. Expanding (hopefully without repeating myself from earlier posts), please bear with me:

I like to use TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) for maintaining health. In fact, you could say I have shifted both East and West of India as the source of my approach to life (whilst still acknowledging much of what I learnt from there). There are thousands of graduates of TCM from all kinds of universities and colleges to choose from (here it can be studied at uni - part of Health Sciences, which includes everything other than nursing, and medicine, which have their own faculties).

My choice of therapist is a 4th generation practitioner who is Cambodian Chinese. He grew up in that environment, learnt from his grandfather and Father, who learnt from theirs. It is not a new, alien subject to be "conquered", it is his world view, from the inside out and the outside in. He has no qualifications.

One main side effect of BK life was an imbalance in diet and exercise. To keep this short, i went to other trained healers, doctors etc. He was the one who finally diagnosed (using 6 point pulse diagnosis) the underlying cause. His prescriptions for adjustments to diet - I am still vego - and a course of herbs turned me around.

A person who studies to become a clinical psychologist covers a broad range, but emphasis is on the psychology of consciousness, behaviourism, medications, getting the person to function, managing the symptoms. This can be invaluable and appropriate but very little is studied on the dynamics of the unconscious. They repeat back to the professor what he has spouted to get some letters to add to their names, and a piece of paper they hang on their wall, hang their shingle and open up shop. Its "book knowledge". Some of them are fine practitioners of their craft.

Others practice by rote. This symptom equal that diagnosis - means this prescription. It is the whole person who is the therapist, not the A4 certificate on the wall. (I know some real fruit loops who have become "qualified" counsellors and therapists - they end up projecting their nonsense onto others).

In "The Undiscovered Self", Jung said that, imagine you calculated from samples what specifications describe an average river rock. But just as you could search for weeks and never find one that had those exact specifications, so too, there is no "average" patient or "average" condition. Each has its own permutations.. The therapist must struggle (along with the client) to find what makes that person who they are, and to help them be themselves, not to just enable them fit society's specifications of a useful member, or not be a drain on the budget!.

The process of becoming one's self he calls "individuation". It goes beyond helping someone overcome symptoms that disable. It carries on, to enable people who are "well" to find themselves and their inner voice, to fulfill and enjoy their potential, not someone else's idea of who they "should" be. So again, the whole person. Not splitting them up and working on one aspect, but connecting them to themselves.

If you want to qualify as a Jungian therapist, you must yourself undergo therapy for 2 or 3 years as well as studying at a recognised institution - the main one is in Switzerland. I am not a "qualified" Jungian therapist. I started a 10 week course in learning Dream Analysis, from a primarily Jungian approach.

The 10 weeks turned into 3 years of study and analysis. Of myself and others. This was in a small core group of about 6 people, with others coming and going. It was not intended to become that. It was the serendipitous meeting of a particular group of individuals. Needless to say we are all firm and fast friends. The teacher was, like my Chinese herbalist, not qualified but born to it. His mother is a qualified Jungian analyst, he was breastfed this stuff. He has studied to degree level in other areas (e.g. comparative religion) but makes his real money as a top level programmer for national and multinational companies (he was the person I mentioned who "saw" the numbers of the 3 winning horses, & without knowing their names, put some money down and won thousands).

After three years, he went overseas for work (to set up the online systems for Amway Japan). He told me that if I wanted to, I was capable to run these groups. I did, initially running them weekly from my home, then working through Evening and Adult Continuing Education Colleges. In this time, more than 13 years, many kinds of people have come through the group, with all kinds of issues manifesting in their dreams, including psychology graduates and students who wanted to know more about this side of psychology. In all that time , only 2 complaints - if I can put it that way.

One woman who was upset, angry with me and verbally abusive (the dream revealed itself to be about how her mother & she dealt with her sexual abuse as a 12 year old - she resented being reminded of being a "victim" and things getting stirred up). Another woman in that same group sided with her, saying she expected the group to be more "fun". (In the face of this abuse, my Aries Rising was rising, but I held it in check, and asked others in the group what they thought about what had been said and how we should proceed. On the basis of their responses, the two women left the group).

So ex-l, what else can i say? I have read a lot of books, occasionally go to lectures, listen to podcasts etc etc. When you are open to it, people with these experiences are all around you. An old lady who's lived with depression for decades is someone I have spoken with recently. She was encouraged to try another modality, and I learnt some things from her too. I have related earlier about relatives, friends, acquaintances who have gone through mental health episodes - remember 20% of people experience it sometime in their life.

Probably the main influence and education for me was my parents. I am more and more appreciative of their pragmatism, unconditional love, charity, hard work and more, some of which I have absorbed by osmosis (or maybe it was the vibrations in the cooking?). They were intelligent people, but not well educated. They taught me it is who a person is and what they do that counts, not how they present themselves.

My purpose for being here is another question you keep asking - it's probably not too different to many others. And I noticed that despite the 'tag' of ex-BK, many here were still "bound' by that religion (intentional tautology) and its language & concepts. The actions were merely reactions. I hope my contributions bring in fresh winds, or more prosaically, another point of view. I have learnt a lot in the process myself. I'll finish off with this “The unconscious mind sees correctly even when conscious reason is blind and impotent” - C.G. Jung

I wanted to add something to the last - so for those who read it before the new text is in this colour below. Here is a clip that relates to what was said. The brilliant comedy series "Help" with Chris Langham as the Therapist and Paul Whitehouse as all the different clients. This is part of episode 3 I think, and some jokes play off earlier skits. Love Monty, the old patient who proves a better therapist than the therapist! If you can borrow the DVD - perfection!

Just this one thread has spurred my interest in Jungian Psychology. Just picked up Jung (an intro) - hey, I have to start somewhere.

Another use of this website!

Further to below - a series of podcasts - lectures on aspects of Jungian psychology, are available here, free of chargehttp://jungian.libsyn.com/ John Betts, a Canadian analyst, speaks very clearly and these are well presented if a bit formal, which is especially good if English is not a first language.
Hi Deccani

Some of Jung's stuff is not written for the general public, and are hard going, but others are not. I recommend "Man & His symbols" and "The Undiscovered Self" as easily accessible."Memories, Dreams, Reflections" is both an autobiography and the development of his ideas, and very readable. A filmed interview available on DVD is called "Matter of Heart".

The wikipedia article on him is very good, with lots of links.

Other authors like Robert Johnson (particularly succinct), Marie Louis Von Franz, Peter O'Connell, June Singer are good too.

I have mentioned Joseph Campbell - just two weeks before he died he did a very long series of interviews for TV with Bill Moyers, which is available in book and DVD formats - called The Power of Myth. More in depth books by him - under "The Masks of God" series (4 volumes) and his most famous is "The Hero with a Thousand faces". He acknowledges Freud as much as Jung, seeing them as offering different qualities for different needs.

But to get the most out of it, I suggest starting to keep a dream journal. You will be surprised, once you start to pay attention, what is there. And remember, like Jung said, "I am glad I am Jung and not a Jungian!" (meaning don't be dogmatic or fixed in view).