Well, thank you all for your hearty welcome, whoever any of you are ...
In reply to John first, then ex-l.
John wrote:Did you know about the prediction of world destruction which should have been 1976. Were you around when all were waiting at Madhuban for the end of the world? Did you know Brahma was originally touted as God and there is no mention of Shiva until around 1950?
Answer is Yes and Yes: I went to India in December '76 and stayed till Feb "77. I'd only been attending the centre in Sydney for about 3 or 4 weeks before that. (A great time, a bunch of hippies living in a commune, tea & (musical) jam sessions after Yoga, and all free of charge!! But I digress.
Yes, there was talk of the date etc, and the first live Avyakt Murlis I heard, January 77, were all about BKs not being ready etc. (Listened to that one for decades and as I got to know the BKs more and more, realised they'd never be "ready"). Remember the Cold War was still happening, and worsened under Reagan etc. But it did not matter that much to me, I was young - 19 - I was in it for the high I got, from both the meditation and debating the zany cosmology, which I thought was so far out it might very well be true! I wasn't convinced, but found the Gyan not unlike the Zen koan, i.e. a great tool for taking the mind outside the box.
Some may remember me as a bit of a pest asking lots of awkward philosophical or scientific type questions. Like our correspondent ex-l and most other people, you see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest (lai la lai). As I enjoyed it all, I hung around, ignored that which did not serve the experience, and by osmosis seriously became one of them.
"Churning" is a double edged sword - one side is, it takes you out of old ways of thinking, but it's also the tool of the ego. ( I use "ego" not in the BK sense, but its original greek and modern psychological meaning - the conscious, waking construct of who I think "I" am, which is only part of the whole "Self" which includes the conscious "ego" and the unconscious, i.e. the organic "rest of me", the bulk of the iceberg below the waterline).
So, the 2nd edge of the sword, churning as tool of ego - you spend a lot of time rationalising or justifying what really doesn't make sense or doesn't "feel' right. Everyone does it, not just BKs. Once you've made an investment (time, emotion etc) you don't want to admit you bought a lemon, so you go on "churning", but what you consciously think and do goes against the instinct and reality of the Self. Like many correspondents have said, you begin doubting yourself, and anything else except the supposedly infallible teaching, infallible because of its purported author. The question of Shiva versus Brahma versus BapDada comes in here, but that's for another time - suffice to say that Truth is what serves the ego at any one time, so you accept. (Einstein said "Truth and Reality are two separate things").
Unlike most, I dug how cosmic B, V & S, the Hindu trinity, were. Gyan introduced me to the magic and mystery of Hindu thought, its wisdom reflected in a pantheon from which each selects that deity which serves the need. Jainism, Buddhism, Vedas and Vedanta, paths of Yoga, such insight and effort by so many for so long, all there for the pickings. So, BKs, thank you - your interpretations are askew and often self serving, but thanks for introducing me to the rich history, culture and wisdom of the sub-continent.
OK ex-l, I am flattered that you take such an interest to search me out on the web, but ... You selectively quote from the "Meditation Space" page stating that i lecture on the "royal road", associating that with the use of "royal" in Raja Yoga, and assuming that I am a practicing BK or apologist for them. From your previous correspondences you sometimes appear to be a bit obsessive, and the fact that you did not notice the rest of the quote or the topic seems to confirm this appearance.
Read a little more carefully - the full quote "the royal road to the unconscious" is from Freud, the topic is Dream Analysis, which I practice and teach. My aim in running the classes there was partly subversive (sorry Connie). I hope to teach others to eventually listen to and trust their inner voice, the sage within each of us, that same whisper that we often misunderstand or transfer / project outside of ourselves onto various guru figures.
And as for
Presumably they do the "whole talk, chit-chat and then 'Sister leading a meditation' number at your lectures for them and there is some free toli in it for you? - well , no. I did 3 sessions, one a month. No Raja Yoga meditation was held or espoused. That may explain why you think Meditation Space is a 'front' - it is part of the reinvention the organisation does to survive/grow/serve a different market with a different style. "Front" implies deceit. All sales techniques, all personalities adopt a "persona", a "front', as do each of us. Deceit is a matter of degree.
And I never liked Toli or sweets generally, except maybe with a coffee. Refused it mostly in Madhuban and centres, which explains my naturally sweet way with words ...
As you seem to carry on so strongly about what Raja Yoga/BKs should be, you obviously still live by that paradigm. Your guide and teacher is still sought outside of yourself, so inevitably its deficient. You have been a bit lazy lately. Look at all the effort you put in; to churn, practice, embody those teachings, and still you were let down. But you don't put the same effort into letting go and seeking or developing an alternative paradigm, you cannot let go of that which has defined the ego, how you see yourself.
You won't admit you bought a crock of *^# lemons, well 'cause it did serve you for a time, and you recommended it to so many and how could you have been so wrong? You still try to convince yourself and others that if only it was practiced another way, all would then be according to (your) God's plan.
So, just to clarify for you ex-l where I stand - There is no god.
Or rather no god but that god which is a projection of the psychic need of the time, of a culture or of an individual.
So, you may ask, what or who did I experience in deep Yoga, from where is that incredible source of peace & power that seemed to come from somewhere else, who was that masked man? And I may answer - any part of one's self that is outside of our consciousness is experienced as "other" by the consciousness. Hence the experience of "divine intervention" or of "the muse" or ''the devil''. Even "Siva". I won't bore you by elaborating here.
One little trick I use is to replace the word "God" with "Life". If it serves Life, it serves God. If it does not serve Life, it is a false God. And really all Gods are false, or abstractions, as only Life itself is real. As the one-legged transexual from Stockholm said on one of Australia's top talk shows - "Be yourself, everyone else is taken".
Also, ex-l, the personal invective I referred to was about that directed against some of the BK management, not the other way round. I was playing devil's advocate. Specific accusations surely need investigating (by those who care) but there was a broad brush used, tarnishing some with no specifics mentioned, or nothing that sounded out of the ordinary in any hierarchy of humans, or animals for that matter.
It is courageous what the Justice League are doing (and thanks for accepting the nickname so readily, I thought it appropriate!), but they would achieve more if they forget about management styles and personality clashes or hurt feelings, and as any lawyer would tell you, limit themselves to solid evidence, to hard provable facts that cannot be denied and the "cases" that can be won. That's all I meant.
And as for
"I find the whole "caveat emptor ... its their karma" response both heartless and fallacious. If I bought a car or services and it was not as advertised, I would have a good legal case ..."... well, It may be heartless but its true. If a legal case can be proven - fraud/extortion - it should be brought on, otherwise let it go and get on with life.
Same goes for deceitful advertising - how many people take the case forward? It usually ain't worth the grief. And anyway, maybe the whole story is true, and their donation does get them an 'umble abode amongst the chosen. No one knows for sure, that's why its called a "belief". And again, I never said it is their karma, implying they must have deserved it, you are naughty! And even disingenuous i must say, based on your writing style.
Anyway, thanks for the joust ex-l (does the "l" in "ex-l" stand for "life"?), hope to see you lighten up and laugh about it all a bit more. Life's too short.
Hey Leela - not sure, is that your real name or adopted BK mantle, or just a blog nom-de-plume?
And tete? man, give us a clue. What are you all afraid of? Legalities? Or blowing your cover, you cunning devils! Bring down the cone of silence Chief.