Shocked about this Page

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tom

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post27 Feb 2009

enlightened wrote:I think the only way I can expose those responsible right now is through this forum.

Best choice. So say we all. This is the right place where one recovers and has the opportunity to help others.
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Mr Green

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post27 Feb 2009

Never say never, I believe you will find a normal happy life.
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enlightened

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post28 Feb 2009

Thanks to Terry and Jannisder

And Mr Green ... please don't lose hope as I believe you too will find a happy normal life, if not today, then surely tomorrow. The important thing is to live in the now. Think of the moment you are in now and make the most of this precious moment. We all have the power and control to enjoy the now whether you're crying, laughing, singing, watching a film, cooking etc. Whatever it may be try and enjoy it.

I think if we look around us, life could have been even worse and there are people who could well be more disadvantaged than us. Appreciate what you do have and give that the energy and the rest will come. Come on Mr Green, if not for anyone, please be happy for my sake. Remember, I too am feeling extremely lonely, vulnerable, don't have people to befriend me, have been through abuse both within the BK and without, have been through so many traumas and am still confronted with more traumas recently. But I am hanging in there. I've just started to do some charity work a few hours a week to meet new people and gain new skills. But more than anything I am doing it to heal myself.

I am suffering from depression but am studying just to keep my brain ticking and to be around people.

So Mr Green, if I can do it, then so can you. You're a wonderful, wonderful being with so many skills, talents and virtues. Never ever forget that. You're worth more than all the money and diamonds in this world. We all love you very very much.

Big hug
Enlightened
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paulkershaw

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post02 Mar 2009

Enlightened wrote:The important thing is to live in the now. Think of the moment you are in now and make the most of this precious moment. We all have the power and control to enjoy the now whether you're crying, laughing, singing, watching a film, cooking etc. Whatever it may be try and enjoy it.

This is my point, that those of us that may need healing, also have the ability to offer healing too. What one goes through and experiences is because one will have to offer this wisdom and healing to others too. The recognition of one's journey of healing leads to immense growth. (Only nowadays do I see that my time within the BKWSU was a time of denial, which I misunderstood for a time of healing).

I salute this in you all.

exbrahmin

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post26 May 2009

Thank you so much for all your responses.

To be honest, I did not know how to follow my post and thought it had been lost. I take a look at this site once in a while and, luckily, today I was able to take a look at all your responses after more than three months. I thank you all. Would have never thought that my original writing would have caused three pages of response. Now here follows some clarification and an update.

My Sister is with the organization for seven years already and I entered because of her but left a year ago. I was never able to figure out some things within the organization which did not make sense to me. I thought many were contradictory and that’s why I left. My Sister is still there and I do not have much contact with her since she lives in another city.

I believe she is really very deep and as time goes by does not accept her own past anymore. She does not have time for the nice beautiful things of life anymore and has only time for BK. She has even forgotten, or claims to have forgotten, activities that we used to do when we were growing up. It is so sad to follow how a beautiful girls has transformed into one who believes is an angel but is immersed into this, I want to call, disease called BK.

All your advice is very helpful and it is clear to me that she is a grown woman and responsible for her own life. But, aren't we also responsible, as close family for at least orienting her about the risks of continuing involvement with BK?

I thought about talking to our parents. They don’t know about this site, and I am not sure if I want them to know about it.

Any advice?
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ex-l

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post27 May 2009

Tell your parents about it. Inform them. Protect them. Especially, protect your family's wealth from the BKWSU's vortex because, rest assured, if there is money or property there, the BKWSU leadership will have its subtle ambitions on it.

Parents are surprisingly more tough than they appear. Children, even adult children, have no idea what they have been through, how much they have been through and how much they can tolerate. I am sure they would regret far more not knowing what is really going on with your Sister ... and that many others have been sucked in just like her.

Its always difficult and mistakes will always be made but ... as with basic child psychology ... it is generally considered to be better for parents and siblings to do 'something', even if it does not work, as proof that they love and care for the other.

Many cult victims have eventually come out wishing that their families had done more to wake them up or save them.

Of course, all the "forgetting, detaching, disassociating, dreaminess" is part of the BK pose. We know adherents are encouraged to forget all others, especially their "impure, ignorant and devilish family", and adopt an "angelic daze". It is a front too. The real person is still inside.

What are they telling her about "Destruction" these days? Have they told her that their God predicted it in WWII, 1950, 1976, mid-1980s, Year 2000 and the predictions all failed? Did they tell her that there was no God Shiva until after 1950?

It might be a steep uphill learning curve for your parents but they should know the truth. May be they are too old to care ... perhaps there is other family psychology there?

Is there any obvious reason why your Sister would want to escape her old self and adopt a new artificial self?

Terry

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post27 May 2009

exbrahmin wrote:My Sister is with the organization for seven years already and I entered because of her but left a year ago.

I mistakenly thought she became a BK after you! There is a lot of emphasis in BK life about who became a BK first .

From that information, the thought that came to mind was - the best thing (but not the only thing) you can do for your Sister is to be happy, live your life positively. If an ex-BK is "embittered", it reinforces the BK's sense of being right. If you are happy, she may, at some time or other when she is feeling down and BKs all seem artificial (and that happens to all of us sometime as BKs), she may look at you and see that happiness is independent, that people she loves who are not BK live well, can move on in life.

Don't insist to her on what is correct ways of seeing things or telling her where it's wrong. At most, just pose the questions dispassionately. Let her answer herself, and any answers she suppresses will sit at the back of her mind. One day, she will choose to be honest with herself. This allows her make her own decision, to be right. The other way you ask her to admit she is wrong. The more you push, the more resistance.

Has anyone here ever left BKs because of logical argument from others?
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leela

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post28 May 2009

terry wrote:One day, she will choose to be honest with herself. This allows her make her own decision, to be right. The other way you ask her to admit she is wrong. The more you push, the more resistance. Has anyone here ever left BKs because of logical argument from others?

I think these comments by Terry are very true and wise. No one likes to be wronged for their beliefs, but for a BK there is such total conviction that they are right, any attempts to rationalise, discuss, explain, persuade about another point of view will simply create an even bigger distance between the person outside and the person inside.

Even now, many years after leaving the BKs, I am still grateful that friends and family only ever had respect for what I was doing and never criticized or tried to change my mind. They did not understand, they felt I was moving away from them, but they always accepted and respected what I was doing. (And let's not forget that there are things to respect about the BK lifestyle - the commitment, the discipline, the dedication, etc ...) Because of that respect, when I was ready to leave, I could do so without appearing to lose face or having to admit I made a mistake. And, most importantly, I had something of a support network to return to. For the first couple of years of living away from the BK machine, I depended on those friends and family members very heavily. That would not have been possible if I had felt judged or pressured in any way.

I spent a long time with one foot in and one foot out before I began to think of myself as an ex-BK. When I began to be honest with myself about being unhappy and oppressed in the BKs, what I wanted more than anything was proof from ex-BKs that there could be a fullfilling post-BK life. I wanted to see concrete proof from non-BKs that life could be happy, real, meaningful, spiritual, truthful in other ways than through the BK lifestyle.

To anyone in exbrahmin's position, I would urge you - LIVE, live your own life, BE HAPPY, be yourself, show by example how rich life itself is, no matter what you believe or how you live it. And especially if you are an ex-BK, you are in a unique position to assist if and when your loved one begins to leave. Today, my most special friends are ex-BKs who trod the path of leaving and living again ahead of me.

exbrahmin

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post28 May 2009

Thank you all. I am happy to hear that there are BKs who left. When I talk or chat with my Sister, that seems so far away since she is so immersed in the organization ... she hardly remembers things we used to do together. I will tell our parents, although I do not know at this time how. I do not know if this will help too, since, as said, she is so convinced that she is becoming an angel. The other day she had a flu and she reasoned that the flu was a cause of her negative thoughts, of not being 100% pure yet, of being weak. Can you believe that?

On another matter. What about us? What about me? I have been searching for spiritual life for so long and BK did appeal to me. A loving, peaceful, non-judgmental God, was wonderful to have. As they say, a true friend, my friend. Now that I am getting so disillusioned with BK I worry about loosing faith in this most loving God. We have to admit that BKs story, is a wonderful story. I would love to continue meditation exercises on my own and to believe in a Supreme Soul that loves me so much but I am afraid that all the disillusionment will impact my faith. What now?
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ex-l

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post28 May 2009

I am sure she does remember but is only playing at "not remembering" or not wanting to remember. It will all come back after the "drug" wears off ... and after she starts having decent amounts of sleep!
terry wrote:Has anyone here ever left BKs because of logical argument from others?

Its interest to look, almost see visibly, the wall of responses, mental defences that a BK would project; partly the same self image of themselves that they are attempting to create and sustain, partly additional yuktis (mental tricks) used to distract, defend or even deceive non-BKs. Many of these are taught directly by the leadership, e.g. "Baba has never given a specific date for Destruction".

I imagine that they have all sorts of new ones for disarming the effect of this website, e.g. "a few disgruntled ex-BKs", "anti-party", "bad Maya" etc.

But, I think if someone had sat down with me and quietly warned me about the historical revision, the changes in the Murlis, the no God Shiva until after 1950 and, especially, the numerous failed predictions of Destruction, at least it would have gone in somewhere and encouraged me to open my eyes a little and at least plan my life better. Likewise, all the various abuses and tragedies. If she has not seen them, even to print out and show her the old original posters from the 1930s where all this is made clear might kick start some critical or analytical thinking. That is really what you want to do.

I agree that a combative approach would not work. I agree that engaging an intoxicated BK would not work as they would likely go into auto-pilot mode and use the occasion to "do service of the lokik" and "correct" them. But I think if I was the parent of a BK I would want to make sure my child knew my concerns. For that, the parents have to be fully informed in the first place, and BKs and the BKWSU do not do that.

If the child decides to continue after that point, then they have taken responsibility for their own life and I, as the parent would be free from any responsibility for them (in fact, an impossible state of mind for any normal parent). And I think, as with drugs, alcohol or an abusive relationship, the parents should be empowered and allowed to refuse to be any part of what the child has chosen.

I have to ask, do parents of BK blame themselves for their child's involvement in such a mentally controlling cult as the BKWSU? Can normal parents cut their feelings off so entirely? Specifically, which years did your Sister get involved with the Brahma Kumaris?

The trouble is, BKism is like a drug and until the high wears off, there is not a lot you can do. This may be controversial to write, but once she comes out, in my opinion, you should make any offer of support very conditional on her having no more contact with the BKWSU and, if necessary, that should be strictly communicated to the BKWSU so that they stop sending her spam, invitations to events and chasing after her.

Personally, if it was my child, I would have to "lovefully" draw a strict line and make it clear that I loved them and would support them as a parent would normally support a child but only on the condition that they had nothing to do with the BKWSU. Either or. Most parents up until now have had no resources to find out exactly what the BKWSU and its leadership is all about.
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tom

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post28 May 2009

ex-l wrote:I would have to "lovefully" draw a strict line and make it clear that I loved them and would support them as a parent would normally support a child but only on the condition that they had nothing to do with the BKWSU. Either or.

I would not advise this option. Just the opposite. The parents' and siblings' love must be unconditional. If one child is gone to the wrong direction in the eyes of them, if they say 'either or', they loose the child. I mean the child gets hurt and does not care what they think any more and insists on his/her own direction. When I was very young, I experienced this in my lokik life. Every time when they said "either or" I found a great energy which arose from my hurt feelings to go on my own way.

Next to love and care there is also another way of correspondence for me. You can talk to her higher self in your mind calmly and tell her silently about the dangers of the mind control of the BKs and that besides some good things she can learn from the BKs, she will loose her chance to find a good job and a loving partner, beautiful children for her life, and one day if she wants to leave, she may be left alone in the world. Also it is not worth to make these sacrifices, it is not God of all humanity speaking through Dadi Gulzar but some earth bound dark entities who need to control human beings.

God will be always with her, she will feel herself closer to God without the BKs.

And please don't worry much. We all have to go through the tasks we need as long as we need.
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ex-l

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post29 May 2009

tom wrote:The parents' and siblings' love must be unconditional.

OK. I apologise. Please allow me to be more specific.

I was especially thinking about the issue of money and property, which are after all symbols of a family's true "wealth" ... its spiritual energy and drive. A family can surely love a child on its own terms, quietly. I think this is inline with what cult advisors suggest, e.g. keeping conversation away from cult issues, keep shared actions away from cult activities. Of course, with BKs it is nearly impossible because they are taught not to eat parents food, that it is impure and so on. When I think about how ridiculous and criminal that is now it depresses me that I once did ... I was made to be an offensive idiot by the BKWSU.

I have just come to see the BKWSU in the most basic of terms, "is it taking more or giving more?", "is more going in or more coming out?".

It seems every organization, or movement, is effected by entropy and the BKWSU passed the point of giving a long time ago. Now its needs more and more to sustain its front, its PR campaign, its leaders international airtravel, its big properties. Individuals, families, governments even pour their time, energy and money into the BKWSU ... and what comes out from the leadership?

Not even truth or respect for others in real terms ...

I do not accept that values or virtues should cost so much and require so much property. Nor can I accept that the 'invisible' (thoughts) is worth more than the 'visible' (actions).

So, specifically, what should the parents do? Where should they draw the line?
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tom

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post29 May 2009

ex-l wrote:what should the parents do? Where should they draw the line?

I don't think there is a line caring parents can draw. Their child is theirs as long as they live, even if the well educated child commits a crime and they have to pay a prison visit every week years long.

It is not a big deal the family of ex-brahmin can do for their BK daughter. To prove their understanding and respect for the choice of their BK daughter, parents can buy two new pots and some new utensils, and assure their child that nobody will use them except her leaving it to time. If their daughter wants to see her family, she can come and cook her own food using the utensils and pots which are saved for her, and eat with her family together at the same table.

Of course, at this family evening, it is good if her Brother ex-brahmin cooks for the other members of the family so that there should be no meat, fish, chicken or onions, garlic on the table and she would not feel disgust. And no offending or criticizing talk at the table or during that visit at all.

I have seen several families of my BK peers being so kind and understanding, and kept the relationship with their BK children good, for the goodness of all parts. In time, the BKs started to eat the food their mother was cooking for them specially. Or that which they were cooking for the rest of the family when they came together.

jann

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post29 May 2009

Although I might not response to some posts, remember that I am still in the middle of it ... let's say the battle of involvement with a BK, getting him back into normal life (but what is normal?). I did everything to get him out, with all negative stuff, but that does not work. It seems to pull them in more. I got mad ... I discussed, I ignored ... Then I showed interest, than I called it all fake ... and so on ... did everything on the ... "not to do list" of cult-awareness advice and everything on the "what to do list". I must say my BK friend has an enormous power to tolerate ... Oh, what I did to him to wake him up!!! Nothing worked!

Well, the raya Yoga club banished me ... probably seeing me as a stepchild or ... "not Baba's child". Still the BK in question is in some way depending on me ... till the time he can go on his own. So who am ??? Speaking from world ... I love him, as he is ... he tried to recruit me, but did not work ... but we became friends ... close friends(?). We even sleep in the same bed ... and with no sexual desire but the closeness in our heart (we are over 40).

It seem I can never get him to stop loving Baba, or his BK family, more than he loves me as a lokik. All I can do I show him! If BK world is a graveyard, that doesn't mean that MY world is. If BK say's, "forget the happiness of this world", I make him remember the happiness. I got him back into contact with his kids ... and told his family ... Now I am getting ever so tired. Although he is here every day ... Who am I to him?

What seems to work is unconditional love ... and, in this case, he knows I am against it but I still love him ... Time for me to show how love really works in human life. Hmmm. He is surprised, while his beloved BK family is "not at home". Throw some Murli quotes ... but be careful.

exbrahmin

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Re: Shocked about this Page

Post29 May 2009

I would have never thought that a few "innocent" lines would have caused so much writing. Now I am wondering, is BK really so bad? Is it really a cult? What is their real purpose? Are some getting rich beyond belief?

You know, I went to so many retreats, to so many Murlis to so many events, that I find it hard to belief that I was so stupid. I guess nothing in life is really that black or that white. But I am starting to wonder. You know, the argument is always ... "but your Sister looks so happy" ... well, yes, she does to a regular eye, but not to me, since I know her for so much time. She used to be so naturally "sweet", now she thinks she is ... she used to be carrying, now she thinks she is, she used to be so full of love ... not anymore. Her love today is only for her Baba.... and she has lost the sense of what love really is.

I used to think that the biggest mistake that BK did was not really understanding what "detachment" is. From all your comments, I am starting to wonder if all this "not understanding" is on purpose. Is all this really on purpose? Is this really such a clever machine (organization) tuned to destroy everything for the purpose of their own survival? Of their own being?

Was I, so stupid not to see it after such a long time? You know, I am so confused ... I used to like so many things of BK. Now I am so lost. I don't want to lose faith. I just want to belief in a God who immensely loves me.
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