Progressive BKs in West

Not all "business" involves money, as you well know. I am not getting at you here, just stating the obvious. Its called a "loss leader" in business. You "lose" initially (costs out of pocket) to gain at a later point.

Likewise, its all just cumulative PR to build a market and a reputation within that market ... a game the BKs are deeply into and one I have always picked up on; both "status by association" and subterfuge (appearing to be what one is not). Of course, if your "business" is spiritual sedition, then I am not complaining.

The East Sydney Meditation Space is not a centre - it is a warehouse space paid for by a couple of "progressive" BKs who like to run alternative approaches to spirituality that are not exclusively BK. The "clientele" are mostly "drop in" from the local bohemian area.

On one night, one of the tenants of the space attended, and said she found it very interesting.

By tenants, you mean BKs who signed the contract to lease it as a BKWSU venue. Semantics ... the Inner Space "shops" are not "centers" either but they are still recruiting stations and fronts. East Sydney Meditation Space seems pretty heavily branded as BK to me, its just that all the BKs are presented as not obviously being BKs.

I address this more heavily at the West because, as you know, the Trimurti God Father stuff is still the core of the Brahma Kumaris and the New Age ambiental stuff, even corporate consulting stuff, is just the icing appealing to Westerners so they come and have a nibble.

What does "progressive BKs" equate to in BKWSU Australian terms? Do they follow principles and are they doctrinally orthodox BKs? What is the current state of play in the Australian BKWSU? Numbers up or down etc ...

I was shocked to see a paid for Zen retreat being held at Leura. I don't see that as progress. Either it had to be done just for the money or else, to me, it was just more subterfuge designed to give the impression that Brahma Kumarism is more ecumenical and openminded than it really is.

(The paradox being that most Western BKs are/were nice, ecumenical and openminded but the God of the BKs, the core theology and the leadership are not ... "like putting Icing on a turd", I say).

I was not trying to be vague ex-l. I think what I wrote was clear enough, but you are free to re-word things into the language that pleases you if you wish.

East Sydney Meditation Space seems pretty heavily branded as BK to me

You say that as if I suggested, or that they pretend, they are not BK. The BK name and logo is on every page of the web site, and the place includes the usual BK literature and iconography. I was merely stating that it is not a "normal" BKRY centre. Nothing more nothing less. Conny was the one who ran the Cologne centre when that German BK expressionist theatrical style, that you wrote almost positively about recently, began.

What are progressive BKs in Australia? My honest opinion is they are the ones who would be more than happy to see at least half of the dogma changed, who do everything they can to blur the lines between being a real human being and being a BK.

Question - are you a died-in-the-wool BK if you'd prefer the Gyan to be other than it is? (Now there's a cue ...).

I was shocked to see a paid for Zen retreat being held at Leura ... subterfuge designed to give the impression that Brahma Kumarism is more ecumenical and openminded than it really is.

What if the people involved are more ecumenical and open-minded than you give them credit for? (I mean - if the BKs were really to change like we all want them to - would we notice it, or would we always think "surely another pretence"?).

What if the people involved are more ecumenical and open-minded than you give them credit for? (I mean - if the BKs were really to change like we all want them to - would we notice it, or would we always think "surely another pretence"?).

Are you telling me what I think again? I thought we had gotten over that and moved on ...

What are progressive BKs in Australia? My honest opinion is they are the ones who would be more than happy to see at least half of the dogma changed, who do everything they can to blur the lines between being a real human being and being a BK ... Question - are you a died-in-the-wool BK if you'd prefer the Gyan to be other than it is?

Ultimately, I think what would make a "BK" for me is someone that accepts the confusion and monopolisation of "God" with the Brahma Kumaris "Baba construction". Until they reach the point where they are willing to ditch that, they are still hooked and part of that machine. Somewhere in there would also be accepting self-proclaimed divine authority of the current leadership. The West got over that kind of idea somewhere in the 16th Century.

I think we have to be very honest about the business side. Having spent a lot of time reading up on the early days and the Sindi community, I currently frame core Brahma Kumarism far more in the merchant caste they came from than 'spiritual' or 'yogi' which is presented to public. Its strikes me at present that the very New Agey or Angelic BKWSU is very much a projection of Western BKs.

The corporate BKWSU stuff in interesting as, for me, it is a meeting of similar types in both India and the West that has brought out again a very strong and deep current within the Brahma Kumari movement; business, status and a blunt interest in money. Correct me if I am wrong.

Now, again, there appears to me to be a slight dissonance. I am absolutely sure that much of Brahma Kumarism is toe-curlingly embarrassing to progressive BKs and, to me, it appears that what they are attracted to are elegant spiritual retreats, the arts and more touchie-feelie elements like the idea of "healing".

The spice and exoticism of "Mata India" on the outside fits into that very easily but what do they do and how to they cope with the more boneheaded fundamentalist elements ... which I pressume is that 50% you are talking about.

In my opinion, and on fairly solid evidential grounds, we were fooled and I fear today's Progressive BKs are and will be fooled. The Sindi/Indian core (which needs to be defined as I am sure there are progressive, sincere Indians too) will allow them to carry on their own external dramas far from the core, appease and appaul them when they deliver what the BK seek (money, VIPs, fresh blood), use the progressive when it is good for their business ... but are they taken seriously at all?

One could look at it as a symbiotic or dependent relationship, or one could see it as one usurping the others skills, talents and wealth.

Are they getting anywere or are they just being used? It strikes me the "sussed" ones have just realised that it is a business and gotten into the business for themselves. Did Connie have to go to Australia to find that freedom?

(... Gosh, in my days/experience, you were not even allowed to move to a different center without permission and/or a letter from the senior Sisters and any sense of personal desire/interest/affinity was a terrible Maya to be stomped on).