My BK friend is confused

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starchild

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post13 Jun 2009

Thank you Tom, that is very true.

Oh Lord. Dear Jannisder, it has been three years now!!?? Have you accepted the relationship as platonic, and even if you have, does he know of your feelings for him? Have you ever openly discussed this and, if so, what are his feelings for you?

Are you happy with the relationship that you have as it stands now?

It seems to me that Cranuta has met someone she has deep feelings for but her friend is running, the poor guy must be really freaked out, because of his fear. She is maybe less likely to get as involved as Jannisder. Hopefully, for her sake. Of course, that will be his loss.

Jannisder, if this guy has been "in Gyan" for nine years and is having a relationship with you for the past three; he, unlike Cranuta's friend, is obviously one of those people in life who are comfortable with keeping different, sometimes contradictory parts of their lives separate, while running concurrent. This can be a positive thing but it can also contain an element of deceit/self-deceit and also convenience (for him). Does it seem he is having it all his own way?
I, unfortunately, threw myself right in to the BK thing. (Thankfully, I think now, though for many years I felt I had failed because I left) I did know many others who seemed to be able to live their lives alongside it.

Does it work for you as it is? One thing in your past posts brought up a question for me?

At one point you were given an ultimatum, become a Brahmin or forget all our plans.

I would be interested to know what the plans were, not from nosiness; but I am intrigued, that he is "pukka" enough to want you to become a Brahmin; but you also had personal plans?

Or were they service plans?

I think the important thing is that you are realistic about what the relationship has to offer and if you accept that without false hope. And that there will not be future resentment. After all, you sound like a wonderful person.

Could there be someone out there who could give you more, and is your involvement with BK bro preventing that?

On the other hand, so many people in conventional relationships are miserable.

Wishing you all well.
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lokila

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post13 Jun 2009

Dear Cranuta,

Even if you get someone out of the BK system, it usually takes many years for an ex-BK to develop another mindset. I have been deeply involved for 6 years. When I felt lonely, I had not enough 'Yoga' (connection with the Supreme Soul God); whenever I felt attracted to someone, it was 'karma' (connection from a past life); when I missed human affection, I was not doing enough "service" (to save the world by spreading the word and recruiting potential BKs). Every thought or action which contains any desire for oneself, is wrong in itself for a BK and cannot be sincere. The only real love comes from God; so is the indoctrination. And the only self interest should be having a connection with God and purifying yourself by running around the whole day organizing programs and teachings.

His affection towards you could be very sincere, but it can never be according to the teachings of the BK because it is too particular.

When I left because I had fallen in love, that night I had a dream; I was standing in front of a mirror and my face had turned black. No matter how hard I tried, I could not get the black stuff off. I felt I had ruined my destiny for all eternity because I believed the life span of the world history is 5000 years and will go on forever like that. I also felt I let humanity down because I was of no use any longer. I took me about 10 years to free myself from this thoughts, even in the most subtle varieties.

I hope this short story gives you a glimpse of the tremendous impact life according the BK philosophy can have. But I don't think someone is ever really lost and there is always hope.

(PS Sorry if my English is not what it should be, it is not my mother tongue)

jann

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post14 Jun 2009

Dear Starchild to answer your questions mite be of help of others so here it goes.
Have you accepted the relationship as platonic, and even if you have, does he know of your feelings for him? Have you ever openly discussed this and, if so, what are his feelings for you?


Yes I accepted the relationship to be platonic and he knows my feelings for him and we have openly discussed that.
I openly forbid any traffic control reminders in my house, and no dristi on my cooked food. No service practise on me ore my friends etc. and he is still around....so i think he cares. On the other hand, i come in handy when he wants to travel to BK retreats to take care of the house, so i still wonder sometimes ....But that is also over....i will not do anything for him in any relation to the BK.
Are you happy with the relationship that you have as it stands now?

Well, the only thing we do not have is sex,....for the rest we have everything. We are a bid far over teenagers so sex is not a main thing anymore. The companionship, the friendship is of much more value. We even sleep together in the same bed, maybe with an inner desire, but save and comfortable without any tension or insecurity. and that is very relaxing.
if this guy has been "in Gyan" for nine years and is having a relationship with you for the past three; he, unlike Cranuta's friend, is obviously one of those people in life who are comfortable with keeping different, sometimes contradictory parts of their lives separate, while running concurrent. This can be a positive thing but it can also contain an element of deceit/self-deceit and also convenience (for him). Does it seem he is having it all his own way?

Yes he is getting it his way. One way he is in Gyan on the other way he is with me. A two way situation lets say a split personality. I have noticed that he keeps his two life's completely separated. Funny thing is that even i did the 7 day course and the advanced, I was never invited to come to the center for anything. Not even morning class. That still gives me a feeling to just come in handy as an instrument to serve him but not to be invited to the center because I am trouble....!!!! (and I am!
At one point you were given an ultimatum, become a Brahmin or forget all our plans.
)

I was not giving an ultimatum i was just told.
" All our plans are off because you are not a Brahmin"....that is what he told me. and that was after i did a lot of work for him, and also for me because i enjoyed it,....but still.

Could there be someone out there who could give you more, and is your involvement with BK bro preventing that?

Yes,....there could be someone out there, my involvement is not preventing that, but hey....I love this man, knowing he is not himself, but acting like an angel wannabee, I know him as he realy is, and that is the man i love. Not the BK, and if he is acting up he can go! And I kicked him out many times. The fear of loosing him is long gone, because in BK terms he can never settle his karmic account with me so I feel strong to "handle" him with just one target in mind, and that is to get him out, to educate him, slowly and carefully.

so many people in conventional relationships are miserable.

Beside all the things going on we have so much fun, we are great friends and companions and we take care of each other.

All and everything in nature wants to be together, even flowers, animals and all on earth, that is how it was made. When a cult tells you to stop that..it is against nature and you shall be fighting your own nature till the day you die and the cult made you think you are a failure.
We are never failure to love others and to want company of others, to have fun, to make love and be happy.
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ex-l

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post14 Jun 2009

Lokila wrote:When I left because I had fallen in love, that night I had a dream; I was standing in front of a mirror and my face had turned black. No matter how hard I tried, I could not get the black stuff off.

It should be underlined that this dream was a 'word for word' or literal interpretation of what Brahma Kumari followers are told by their "God" each morning in the Murli scripture readings. Inside the organization, they would be interpreted as real and, perhaps, direct "touchings" or inspiration from God.

They raise issues about the veracity and importance of such dreams, the impressionability of our sub-consciousness mind and how they are used to manipulate adherents (discussion about dreams in the other topic on the subject please, if anyone wishes to do so).

I, myself, had dreams such as these relating to Destruction (End of the World) which, years later, have been proven to have been complete worthless fantasy and nonsense but inside they would be classed a par with visions.

"The soul had a vision of ... " to use the odd language they used.

starchild

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post15 Jun 2009

Thank you Jannisder.

Your BK friend is very lucky. Hope things work out well.

Also for Cranuta.

Best Wishes.

jann

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post15 Jun 2009

Dear Cranuta,

this topic is FOR YOU. Forgive me for busting in ...

I hope, though, that some answers I gave to Starchild's questions give you something that you can use to save your friendship.

Love, Jannisder

cranuta

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post16 Jun 2009

Dear All,

My confused friend has been telling me that everything I read was all gargabe & rubbish. He mentioned as well that this site is intended to discredit and destroy the reputation of BK. He has been with the cult for 7 years, so he is hooked and nobody else can change his mind.

I don't know, I am beginning to accept the fact that being a Protestant and BK member cannot really be friends due to conflicting beliefs.

I have also my own life to live, and I am getting married soon. I want to help but I am helpless. Is it the end for us? Can I just simply throw the beautiful friendship we have shared for 2 years. How can I cope up considering that he is my colleague?

Thank you once again for all your concerns and thoughts.

Terry

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post16 Jun 2009

Tell your friend that he is right, there is a lot of garbage on this web site, but there are also a lot of gems, a lot of facts, and a lot of interesting perspectives because it is an open discussion. There is lots of documentation and history (which you can print off - give him something factual, ask him to read it and then ask his opinion of an undeniable fact). There are many free thinkers and independent ideas from people with years of experience, not all here are anti-BK, many are current BKs. (I am ex-BK, but married to BK - as the slogan on the right says).

Also, as to your friendship, friendship doesn't mean living in each other' s pockets ... get on with your life, share what is shareable with your BK friend - things like rude jokes and pornography (ha ha) - and share with your other friends the other things - like open minded, free ranging ideas, warm hugs, laughter and levity.

They say life is a caravan, some join while others leave, each has their own destination; it is an ever changing group of companions ...
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tom

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post16 Jun 2009

Dear cranuta,
My confused friend has been telling me that everything I read was all gargabe & rubbish

This is not your friend's own opinion. This is exactly the official opinion of the Headquarters of BKWSU, of his Seniors and his teachers about this forum.

In a cult like the BKs, no true believer can have a personal opinion. Every member talks and thinks within the Seniors' dictated patterns. I bet your friend has not examined any topic here. It does not matter. In fact, BK knowledge is rubbish & garbage (except some stolen wisdom from the Sufism and from Hindu Saints). But we all need to go through some experiences in our lives to get the lessons we need. Some of them are more harmful than the BK knowledge.

Allow me to say to you, please don't worry for your friend. Concentrate on your own life and enjoy your marriage. I would not open this subject of the BKs again with your friend. Let him live his own experiences. Show him respect for his choice.

He has to go through very difficult times until, hopefully, one day it clicks by him. It is not your responsibility or anybody's responsibility any more.

starchild

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post16 Jun 2009

Hi Cranutha.

If your friend is following the BK teachings he will be trying to be a peaceful soul, spreading peaceful vibrations.

Would it help if you expressed that you would like a peaceful atmosphere between you ... in your friendship, and in the workplace?

He is possibly giving himself hell over the show of affection, and this could cause him a hugely exaggerated reaction because of his battling with, and repression of feelings. These people are living in a seriously intense way on many levels. Also, it is difficult to intervene. Some people do stay with the organization for life. It is difficult to know how well one or another is in their BK lives. Going through huge psychological difficulties are expected, it is called 'storms of Maya' as I recall.

Also individuals respond in different ways, as has been discussed here recently. In the threads on Catholicism etc.

I agree with Tom, and others, that it is not your responsibility. Your first responsibility to yourself. I understand how uncomfortable feelings can be a nightmare in a work situation. That's why I suggest you appeal to his religion of peace, which is what attracts many to raj Yoga in the first place. It was a major factor for me, which would suggest to me that he is probably a person who wants peace in his relationships, and good vibes in the workplace.

Its ironic though that we are attracted to, and indeed it is so advertised by the BKs, to a meditation which will give peace of mind, and end up with "huge storms of Maya" (meaning your head is in a terrible state). A terrible enough state which in some cases for suicides to happen. Who knows how many serious breakdowns.

However, not to alarm you too much about your friend. Some people seem to manage the experience without feeling too upset.

Wishing you well.
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ex-l

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post17 Jun 2009

In truth, I think I would take a different route ... and what you are likely to see from now on are the true faces of BKs and the BKWSU. Likely he has just been "serving" you, trying to convert you and save you from the "murder" of marriage ... albeit mixed up with forbidden personal feelings for you.

Now that you are obviously not going to convert, and you have an accurate and independent source of information about Brahma Kumarism, you are likely to discover how conditional his friendship was ... and he will be an a tangle.

Firstly, Tom is right. BKs don't think for themselves. That is a repeat of what we have heard before. It is both pathetic and insulting. "Defaming Baba" is what they call it.

On this forum you have people we decades of knowledge of the BKWSU, who have been centers-in-charge, and including some that still believe. If he has only been in for 7 years, and is a junior BK, he probably knows nothing but the basic propaganda. You will actually help him more by facing the truth and confront the mental conditioning he has subjected himself to, never mind the influence of spirits.

    Looking at it from a Christian point of view, what are the Brahma Kumaris?
Their leaders are spirit mediums from which spirit entities that claim to be the God of all religions speak. They are spiritualist who claim to be able to predict the future and the End of the World. Their mediums claim to be possessed by God Shiva, other Hindu gods such as Krishna, and deceased Brahma Kumaris. Followers are encouraged to hand over their minds, bodies and wealth to the control of these spirits and those mediums.

When a BK talks about God, he does not talk about the same God you know. He is talking about the spirit entities that speak through the BKWSU mediums ... and for the first 20 years of their existence, they thought that their millionaire funder, Lekhraj Kirpalani, was God.

Now they believe that Lekhraj Kirpalani is equal to God and comes back as a ghost to also speak through their mediums ... with the "God spirits". He is trying to make you believe that your God is his god. The spirit that comes to speak to them "Murlis" which they read every morning. We have examples, here. Print one out and ask him if he recognises it as authentic.

BKs believe that ALL BKs ... even the lying, cheating, stealing, fornicating ones, the ones that abused children or beat people up ... are spiritually superior to Jesus Christ and will go to heaven. They think that Jesus Christ was two souls in one body, 'Jesus' possessed by a second spirit 'Christ' just like their leader. According to the BKWSU Knowledge, Jesus Christ is less than 50% spiritually powerful than their Dadi Janki ... and so on. Let us get down to facts. Christ will never experience heaven on earth, he has been reincarnating as a human being and is now "totally degraded". They believe Christ must attend a BK center in order to re learn his religion.

    These are BK FACTS ... this is what the BK leadership teaches.
If you want to, ask him a question like ...

"Explain to me ... when Om Radhe, the BK's Mama, wrote in the book "Is this Justice?" that Lekhraj Kirpalani retired in 1932 and was aged 54 in 1938, why do the BKWSU now claim he was 60 in 1936 when God entered him ... especially when there was no mention of God Shiva at all until after 1950? You believe that Om Radhe was the number two souls of all humanity and the Mother of Humanity, don't you?".

Its obscure but has significances to a BK. What I am suggesting you to do is re-engage his critical thinking, make him curious ... and show him that people here really do know what they are talking about.

Show him that you have woken up and starting to learn the truth. Get him to clarify that he believes "God" are these spirit entities (ghosts) that are entering "Dadi Gulzar" (a senior BK Sister) in Mount Abu and that he has gone to listen and watch to God speaking in person (probably once a year) during "Baba's season".

As a Christian, you can decide for yourself what this is all about. BKs think that no other religion except for them experience God directly. Not even Jesus (Jesus was basically a failed BK from the pervious Cycle of Time). Ask him if he believes BKs, and only BKs, are going to become the angels at judgement and that their leaders are the top, 8, 108 souls in the world. Ask him if any of this is true, and how soon "Destruction" will be, and we can check his answers.

My answer in advance is ... you can start to see how crazy it really is now. The sweet, controlled, peace disguise of "angels of light" is just a mask. You don't need to stay friends with him, you need to tell other people what the BKWSU is really all about.

starchild

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post17 Jun 2009

Yes, the teachings are very bizarre. Sounds even funny sometimes when you see it written down like that. And, yes, we are in an strange place when we are practicing BKs. A person will either be accepting these incredible ideas, or in a state of distress, when battling with questions or even the suppression of their own nature.

It remains to be seen whether it was a conversion attempt or there was a friendship.

In my own experience, I would not have had any interest in making any new friends outside of the BKs at that time. In fact, I was no longer comfortable around my own friends and family.

I did make a few friends within the BKs. But even that was not allowed. I am astonished now at what I accepted as truth.

However, I do remember that the first time I heard part of the Jesus theory, I could not believe it. It was in Madhuban. We were having a "class" from a senior Brother. He was telling us what amazing deities we all were. (The next class could be telling you how impure you are for having a dream with sexual content).
"You are all worship worthy deities", he said, "higher than the prophet souls, higher than the Buddha, or Jesus or Mohammed."

Looking around, we certainly did not look like it!

But what I am remembering at this moment is the strange space I was in during that time. It was a relatively short time, (about 5 years in all) and I am only now unravelling.

I have a little contact, with some BKs still, but I don't feel that they are friendships in the normal sense, in that I do not feel free to be and say what I feel. Even if the conversation does turn to lokik things, it will be interspersed with "Baba this", or "Dadi that ...". On the very, very rare occasions that I have visited, since I left fourteen years since, they seem to assume that I am still a believer.

I think, ex-l, that you are more active in standing up against them and, of course, I and others are getting the benefit of that, having this forum. But up until now I could not be bothered arguing about it. I suppose I always felt that the truth will out eventually and also that people are entitled to believe whatever they want.

There has, since I have joined the forum, been a shift in my attitude. I told a person I know who was bringing their child to retreats about the child abuse allegations. This person had been planning a trip to Madhuban with an eleven year old.

Happily, I have reconnected with some of my former friends and family, and have many new friends in my new life.

Perhaps Carnutha, given the complexities in the situation, you may have to accept that your beautiful friendship might never be the same again.
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rayoflight

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post18 Jun 2009

I have read this entire thread and I must admit that it has made my heart break all over again.

When we are friends with someone it is because we truly like them and because there is an exchange of some kind that brings us joy. But BK Brahmins are masterminds at changing anything that doesn't suit them and their ideology, so dialoguing doesn't always work.

(As an aside, this brings to mind a book that a friend of mine is currently reading called, "I am Okay, You're Okay" by Thomas Anthony Harris. It's a psychology book that explains the unhealthy point of view of "I am okay, you're not okay" versus the healthy "I am okay, you're okay." I haven't read it but it sounds very interesting and seems to fit the Brahmin issue).

To save my own self, I realized I needed to act rather than dialogue. In the same way that friends and families of drug addicts are told not to tolerate any drug behavior in their homes and interactions, I did the same.

Basically, I turned the tables around. BKs became the "untouchables", so I made it clear that it was unhealthy for me to be around them and I "detached" completely. I did not eat their food because their drishti contaminated it. When they talked about knowledge, Baba, Destruction etc., I "listened without listening". It was them who were lost and on the wrong path, not I. I felt sorry for them and I looked at them with pity.

I am generally not one to take this approach because I prefer the friendlier and gentler tactic of dialoguing and listening with respect for one another. But this doesn't work with the BKs because they are always right. Giving them a taste of their own medicine made me realize even more how condescending they can be to humanity.

This worked for me. After a few months, I sent an email to a friend apologizing for having cut myself off so suddenly, but that it was not personal. I was simply not following the BK anymore. I feel strong enough now that I won't be pulled back in which also gives me the strength to know that if a Brahmin wants to get out, he/she can. It will take work but it is possible.

Taking distance from my BK friends made me realize that by saving my own self, eventually I would not be seen only as some poor soul who was pulled back into the big bad world, but as an example of someone who was able to save her own self. Some Brahmins already have their own doubts, so they need to see others successfully get out without trying to convince them to do the same. When they see others get out and live happy, healthy and free lives, they might someday consider it for themselves.

Or not. And that is their choice.

I think it is important to clarify that we are not rejecting the person, but the BK ideology. This sends the message that you do not identify them as a BK, but as a human being. I have told my friends that I would always be their friend whether they decided to be BK or not, but I also added, "if you try selling me your BK-isms, I will tell you to go take a hike in no uncertain terms. You know the score". And I meant it.

They accepted the deal and we remain friends.

cranuta

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post14 Jul 2009

Hello everyone,

I am back! Thank you so much for all your shared thoughts, comments and stories. My BK friend and I are both back to work now. We are very civil with each other. One day he invited me for lunch and I agreed. It was a bit strange for us after such a long time of no communication.

We both agreed that we should not talk about their movement as it triggers misunderstanding and horribe discussions between us. Until one morning I opened the subject to him about getting close with a friend and the fact that he is committing sin. He got so mad and angry at me as to why I touched that subject. We did not speak for a week then he came back to me and apologized.

We are fine but when this serious topic is coming between, we just cannot help it but argue and fight.

As mentioned before, he is such a caring friend. In fact, he took me to the hospital last week when I had food poisoning and stayed beside for more than 24 hrs.

I am trying to understand him as I am leaving very soon to get married with my boyfriend. Last night he cried in front of me and mentioned that, "I have only one friend and she is leaving me ... How can I move on without my one and only best friend?" What does that mean? For sure, he is not in love with me, as he made already a decision to be alone forever. And he is very much aware of my situation, as he met already my boyfriend several times.

Sometimes I find it hard to digest all these things around us. All I know is that we may have different beliefs and opinions but we do care for each other as good friends. I am just really worried what's gonna happen to him once I am gone. Shall I just let him be hooked forever in their cult? Is there anything I can do considering all the above scenarios.

Thank you for all your time. I will be waiting for your comments.
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ex-l

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post14 Jul 2009

To be honest, cranuta, your friend sounds as if they are slightly mentally ill.

I do not mean this as an insult. I mean it genuinely and compassionately. These mood swings, the deeply contradictory mental states, the over-sensitivity ... he needs help from a medical professional. He is also NOT "being a BK". BKs are not meant to be angry ever. In fact, I am very surprised to hear that he allows himself to become so. He seems very immature.

From a BK or spiritual point of view, they would say, "you two have karma with each other". That is to say, they believe that in some past life, you must have been friends, lover, partners or whatever. I remember you said you are a Christian but you could ask him this. It might make him happier, you could just tell him that he has paid his debt off to you and now you can part friends again. No debts and free. Thank him and let him go mentally and emotionally.

From a Christian point of view, one would have to say that he is being "possessed and misled by demons" ... literally in the case of the Brahma Kumaris. Their god spirit speaks to them through mediums and tells them all this stuff. They believe it is from the one and only god or "angels of light". That is what they say. They believe that this spirit and angels whisper messages to them and guide them on a daily basis. Make of this what you wish.

From a non-religious point of view, it is obvious that he is very, very, very confused and he needs help. The BKs will tell him not to speak to anyone outside and the only thing to do is have more communion with their god spirit. I think most of us here would say he needs therapy and needs to get out of the BKs. I think so. At the very least, he needs to take a holiday from them, go out, see the world, read a few books and so on. Suggest that to him.

It is almost impossible for BKs to do so but you can try. Their leaders tell them that they are the only ones with knowledge and all others, such a professors and therapists, are ignorant and ... ultimately ... evil. Try being very gentle with him.

For you, I recommend, "Women who love too much" by Robin Norwood to read. Some of the cases she writes about are too strong for you but it is a classic about women who love too much, and how to distinguish between unwise loving and healthy loving. It is good reading for men and women.

See a very brief summary, here.
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