My BK friend is confused

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cranuta

friends or family of a BK

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My BK friend is confused

Post08 Jun 2009

Hello everyone :D

Greetings to all of you. A very good friend of mine has been involved in this movement for almost a decade now. He is working as a Finance Analyst in one of the international companies here. I joined the company two years back as Finance Coordinator. He is such a very helpful and accommodating individual.

We became close friends and eventually best friends. I came to know about BK through our constant conversations. I do respect his belief and he respects mine. I am a Protestant by the way. Our respective beliefs was never an issue for us. I am very much aware of their rules and teachings.

One day we were having lunch together and our discussions became so emotional. Sudddenly he grabbed my hand and hold it very tight and held me very close to him. I was a bit surprised as I was very aware that in BK teachings having even a mild physical contact with anyone is a big NO and much more with lady like me. After that incident, he has been showing some weird behaviors and refused to talk to me even for office related matters. He would just send me email for some instructions.

After a few days. I received an email to him, he said he feels so sorry, guilty and ashamed for what he did to me. He is consfused and he thinks he committed the biggest sin no earth by just holding my hand. I really don't know how to handle him now. We used to be really good friends with no string attached but with his belief that he disobeyed God for what happened, I am beginning to stay away from him as I feel that I made him feel dirty for a very shallow stuff.

Please advise, is it worth to keep a friend like him or just simply abandon him. Can I help him in any way to change his perception?

Please help.
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ex-l

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post08 Jun 2009

Whew ... welcome on board Cranuta.

First up, well done for cracking open the shell of an ardent BK, so that they can experience their humanity. Even if only for a moment. I am not quite sure what did happen there but, yes, I think you have assessed the situation very well.

My time on time is very short today and so I cannot offer you much opinion right now. You find yourself in a situation that more than a few individuals have done dealing with BKs in the "lokik" (non-BK or "wordly") world. Jannisder, on this forum, should be able to share many an experience with you from her experience of living and loving a BK.

I think any human being is worth giving a chance and it might be worth giving him a little more encouragement to come out of the cultic control. Be prepared, its a long journey for some and, ultimately, only comes about when the individual is ready. What this forum and site can do is give you a good grasp of the philosophy, language and controversies surrounding the BKWSU.

Of course, you don't believe in what you say about "feeling dirty" and you have not done anything "wrong". Yes, he might be in a bit of a tangle about it. If you were not offended by it, you might let him know it was OK by you and that he should not worry. One of the big lessons that all of us learn, this side of the experience, is that the world does not end if you do engage in personal relationships again. One of the big questions we have raised here is whether the absolutist application of celibacy is really for "spiritual" advancement or just the "milieu control" of individuals enculted into the sect.

May I ask, I do not need to know any personal details but is he Indian or a Westerner?

cranuta

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post08 Jun 2009

thank you dear for your reply. he is an Indian. Hope to hear more from you guys. need help

jann

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post08 Jun 2009

Hi Cranuta, you have found the right place! As I did some years ago by visiting this forum for the first time with a load of questions.
There are many do's and don'ts once you get involved with someone who joins a cult. As ex-l said
I think any human being is worth giving a chance and it might be worth giving him a little more encouragement to come out of the cultic control.

You have two options, save the friendship or leave it as it is and save yourself all the trouble that comes with it. Well, when they told me this I was absolute sure to save the friendship, and even get him out of the cult.

First thing I did was to get to know all there is to know abouth the cult, the teachings, lifestyle etc. You can find it all here. I did and still do anything the proof the leader is wrong by staying a close friend, and not leave him because is a Baba's child. He was afraid to be touched but I took every chance to tough him. Touch of the hand, a pad on the shoulder stroke on his hair etc ... not to kinky though :shock:. He started to get more relaxed and touch and kiss now everyday.

I sometimes get really tired though, always being on the sideline of his life, Baba first, than the BK family and than me..on the other hand that is not true, because he is here everyday and we "play house" like we are a couple. I keep him busy to keep him away from the cult as much as I can by doing fun things, encourage him that he will not die for skipping class or Amrit Vela because he wants to do something that he likes and he is OK with that. I get upset sometimes as I read something in the Murli, like ("are you still thinking of any bodily being" ... something like that). He than gives his own interpretation with has nothing to do with BK teachings so I wonder if he is fully aware of what kind of cult he is following, but time will tell.

I confront him carefully, not to scare him away ... with the teachings and the Dadi worship and all. Hope in time he will open his eyes again.

Save your friendship and be strong.
Love Jannisder

cranuta

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post09 Jun 2009

Thank you Jannisder for your comments. I appreciate it a lot! For the past long years, he detached himself from his family and friends. He found friends in me and my other colleague but we were closer. Since the time he touched me, he started really acting absurd and feeling guilty. I tried to explain to him, along with our common friend, that it was just a touch of a friend and nothing else. But for him it was gesture that was against their teachings hence he was so apologetic.

In fact, he has been trying to avoid me now, but his office is just next to mine so it was not that easy for him and for me too. For the past 2 yrs that we have been together as friends, he has been very helpful and he even took care of me when I was confined for a week at the hospital. Somehow I have felt his sincerity and faithfulness with our friendship, despite of our difference most especially in our respective beliefs.

He is so confused and I am more bewildered. I really don't know how to handle him now. I don't want to leave him at this state of confusion as I feel he needs my help. I am hoping to get him out of that cult and eventually he will have a normal life. But I think this is really a big challenge for me considering the strong attachment he has.

By the way, I have already seen some significant changes in some aspects of his life. I feel that he wants to change for the better but not to leave the cult. Hope you can help me more and provide me more some ways on how I can gradually take him out from there.

We care about each other but due to his unreasonable and weird beliefs our friendship is on the edge now of keeping us apart.

I appreciate any comments and suggestions. Thank you Brothers and Sisters for your attention and time.
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ex-l

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post10 Jun 2009

cranuta wrote:In fact, he has been trying to avoid me now, but his office is just next to mine so it was not that easy for him and for me too.

This is typical of the advice he will be being given. Literally, where there appears to be "attachment" or, God forbid, "lust" the BK will be advised to separate for a period of months and make special efforts in meditation to burn away those feelings for someone else except for the spirit entity the Brahma Kumaris believe is the God of all religions. He might also be encourage to make a confession in person, or write a confession, about it.

It seems to me that you are in a bit of a "no win" situation and so, if I were in your situation (and on the basis of our previous experience), I would not be afraid of "losing" him. He is already lost. I would just attempt to plant some seeds in his mind for when he is ready to step free ... forcibly if necessary.

By this I mean, learn a bit more about his religion here, the language etc, speak to him in that language, let him know that there are others outside of their system who have both left and remain interested in "The Knowledge" here and at the other forum http://bk-pbk.info who discuss it independently.

You should calmly tell him that there is much his leaders are not telling him; historical and philosophical revisions, failed predictions of the End of the World, cover ups and abuses. And that it is all out in the public now. Tell him we are not "The Anti-Party" but just other ordinary individuals who have been through the machine and come out the other side. We did not die or suffer terribly. Many have gone on to have normal and happy lives.

I am going to write something here controversial. It is, 'use the conditioned state of mind he is in against him' ... take the dominant position. Don't be bamboozled by all the "Yuktis" (mental tricks or methods) or special language. We can decode that for you or you can read it up in the Encyclopedia. When the time is right, let him know that you have people who can and will do so, so that he cannot use the 10,000 tricks BKs use on non-BKs to escape.

Get him to talk about it all ... not "serve you" (make clear this is not about him "doing service" - which means converting).

You could start by asking him, or telling him that you know now that the Brahma Kumaris teach that a spirit entity which speaks exclusively through their mediums is the God of all religions and make it clear that when you talk about God you do not consider it to be the same as their god. (They use the term "BapDada").

You could even print out some old document that he probably has not seen within the organization but which will prick his interest and show him, like ... an early poster of 'The Cycle'.

cranuta

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post11 Jun 2009

Thanks ex-l for your thoughts and advice. It was very informative and enlightening as well.

I will appreciate if you can send me more some links that could awaken his senses and understanding most especially about the experiences of ex-BKs.

Thanks once again for all your help

Terry

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post11 Jun 2009

Hi Cranuta

have been following this thread, and not in disagreement with anything - just would like to add, if it is not too presumptuous, that you might need to be careful not to fall into the role of 'rescuer" or any other co-dependency.

Keep an eye on your own integrity, joy and freedom. Wish you well.

cranuta

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post11 Jun 2009

Hi Terry,

I have noted your concerns. Certainly, I wont be his rescuer after all he is the master of his own beliefs and actions. I am just really worried as we have been really good friends most especially in times of need. As advised from one of the members, my friend is already lost and should not be afraid of losing him.

God knows, I want to take him out of the cult so he will have a normal life with his family, whom he has abandoned for quite some time. Nevertheless, I am ready to accept the fact is he determine to let go of our established friendship.

Thanks once again for your time.
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tom

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post11 Jun 2009

Dear cranuta,

I must tell you according to my own experiences decades long in a cult, nobody can save anybody from a cult.

Only if the believer or better worshiper starts to investigate or search from his/her own guts, he/she can be saved.

Every attempt of my beloved ones to help me to open my eyes resulted with just the opposite. I became more attached to the cult and became more detached from my beloved ones. Then they gave up and accepted and respected me with my beliefs and with all my odd life style habits.

One day, without any considerable reason, I felt that many doubts which I could not understand have accumulated in my subconscious mind and I remembered suddenly that somebody told me some years ago about this forum. I started to read the posts and the documents months long before the day I got registered and started to correspond. In between, thanks to the Admin of this forum and to the main posters, I went through a full transformation and was saved with my own efforts from my mental conditioning.

If your friend could know that there is this forum existing in the space, and he could any time when he wanted log in, this would be enough to show him the right direction I think.

A friend's and or a lover's position is different than the position of the parents and close family members of the believer. The parents' universal obligation is to give unconditional love to their children, under every circumstances. Friends, partners or lovers however are not obliged to such a commitment. I think their first responsibility should be their own lives and, of course, if they have children of their own, their children's lives.

All sacrifice from your side can cost you, your valuable time and life opportunities without any result. I am sure, praying for him from a long distance, that Divine shows him the right way can be more efficient than trying with all your powers to help him.
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ex-l

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post11 Jun 2009

cranuta wrote:I will appreciate if you can send me more some links that could awaken his senses and understanding most especially about the experiences of ex-BKs.

There are many links linked to at the top of this page. The main specifically ex-BK sites is xbkinfo at infogami.com and I link here to their "classic posts" page. There is another BKWSU watch which would be good for your information but probably too strong for your friend.

I would like to zoom into to take a close look at what Tom is saying and ask "why ... and what is this mechanism that is at play in a cult follower's mind?" that makes the individual clutch even harder at what possesses them?

IF I look at my own experience, it is true. When I first became inculted in the BKWSU, it was thrilling, exciting, indulged my "spiritual fantasies" of living a mystic life, and of course, genuinely religious sentiments (of course, now I must question even those and ask - as in the thread on Catholicism - how much I was "pre-programmed" to be sucked in).

My parents tried in various ways to wake me up, engage me or even shake me out of it and at the time they did not work. To be frank, the grip it has on one's mind is like the grip of a powerful narcotic ... like heroin or crack ... that has one having to go back more and more to continue the high. The high does wear off, as Tom states. If one is not sufficiently socially bound and conditioned by the cult, ration thought or confidence in one's own intuitions does return. Even then, the "pulling out phase" for most, I would say, still takes time. One lingers as if over a lost love. One tries to patch up and repairs the self and group image, but it too fails.

But ... when I look back, even though I did argue back with all the cultic mind play the BKWSU teaches and try to "convert" my family at the time, the calm, rational and intelligent attempt DID plant some seeds in my mind that did take some time to come out. I am thinking about one incident when just casually I was given an academic book on the history and sociology of Millenarianist (End of the World) movements.

I would say that most BKs are highly condition to defend themselves mentally from thinking in any other manner than the ones proscribed for them ,or indeed, 'not thinking' and 'stopping thoughts'. These are part of their practise. I would say that BKs are also deeply encouraged to proselyte and use any occasion to "serve" the other (basically, attempt to convert albeit it in a subtle manner). The false sense of superiority, and body and mind "armoring" within BKs is enormous. That 'touch incident' might just have been a big crack in his.

So ... what I am leading to is ... if you really want to give it one more try, do. But do it knowing that the effect might take years to work its way out. Do it calmly and gently but firmly.

Ask to sit down with him where you wont be distracted and for him to allow you to say your peace. Most BKs probably will, they are good people programmed to be tolerating and accommodating ... he will also, probably, disappear off into meditation as you speak even though his eyes are open and be "zapping" you with "dhristi". Zapping is not their word but mine, but "dhristi" ... pronounced dris-tea. It means to them 'sending you their or their god's vibrations' ... it is probably some sort of psychic or hypnotic influence. Again, this is their practise.

Become as informed as you can about the BKWSU from this website and speak from your heart to him. Give it your one last try. And, then, it would probably be best to cut off and not discuss religion with him again unless it was on the conditions that he wanted out. I say this because BKs, generally, do not have two way conversations. They are the "master almighties of the ocean of knowledge", you are "an untouchable (Shudra), ignorance, vicious and stumbling in darkness". They are the "top notch" (Brahmins), you are at the lowest level of consciousness. These quotes accurately reflect what they are taught. If you search our Encyclopedia for "Murlis" you can read it for yourself.

It would help to know which year he became inculted, joined the BKWSU, because we can point you back to "Knowledge" that he has probably not been told by the BKWSU leaders.
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ex-l

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post11 Jun 2009

cranuta wrote:I will appreciate if you can send me more some links that could awaken his senses and understanding most especially about the experiences of ex-BKs.

There are many links linked to at the top of this page. The main specifically ex-BK sites is xbkinfo at infogami.com and I link here to their "classic posts" page. There is another BKWSU watch which would be good for your information but probably too strong for your friend.

I would like to zoom into to take a close look at what Tom is saying and ask "why ... and what is this mechanism that is at play in a cult follower's mind?" that makes the individual clutch even harder at what possesses them?

IF I look at my own experience, it is true. When I first became enculted in the BKWSU, it was thrilling, exciting, indulged my "spiritual fantasies" of living a mystic life and, of course, genuinely religious sentiments (of course, now I must question even those and ask - as in the thread on Catholicism - how much I was "pre-programmed" to be sucked in).

My parents tried in various ways to wake me up, engage me or even shake me out of it and at the time they did not work. To be frank, the grip it has on one's mind is like the grip of a power narcotic ... like heroin or crack ... that has one having to go back more and more to continue the high. The high does wear off, as Tom states. If one is not sufficiently socially bound and conditioned by the cult, ration thought or confidence in one's own intuitions does return. Even then, the "pulling out phase" for most, I would say, still takes time. One lingers as if over a lost love. One tries to path up and repairs the self and group image but it too fails.

But ... when I look back, even though I did argue back with all the cultic mind play the BKWSU teaches and try to "convert" my family at the time, the calm, rational and intelligent attempt DID plant some seeds in my mind that did take some time to come out. I am thinking about one incident when just casually I was given an academic book on the history and sociology of Millenarianist (End of the World) movements.

I would say that most BKs are highly condition to defend themselves mentally from thinking in any other manner than the ones proscribed for them or, indeed, 'not thinking' and 'stopping thoughts'. These are part of their practise. I would say that BKs are also deeply encourage to proselyte and use any occasion to "serve" the other (basically, attempt to convert albeit it in a subtle manner). The false sense of superiority, and body and mind "armoring" within BKs is enormous. That 'touch incident' might just have been a big crack in his.

So ... what I am leading to is ... if you really want to give it one more try do. But do it knowing that the effect might take years to work it way out. Do it calmly and gently but firmly.

Ask to sit down with him where you wont be distracted and for him to allow you to say your piece. Most BKs probably will, they are good people programmed to be tolerating and accommodating ... he will also, probably, disappear off into meditation as you speak even though his eyes are open and be "zapping" you with "dhristi". Zapping is not their word but mine, but "dhristi" ... pronounced dris-tea. It means to them 'sending you their or their god's vibrations' ... it is probably some sort of psychic or hypnotic influence. Again, this is their practise.

Become as informed as you can about the BKWSU from this website and speak from your heart to him. Give it your one last try. Tell him many BK like him have left and they are living full or happy lives, that the leaders have made many false predictions of the End of the world, that you know about the financial and physical abuses that go on. Even about the sex abuse at Mount Abu etc. All those are complete true.

And, then, it would probably be best to cut off and not discuss religion with him again unless it was on the conditions that he wanted out. I say this because BKs, generally, do not have two way conversations. They are the "master almighties of the ocean of knowledge", you are "an untouchable (Shudra), ignorance, vicious and stumbling in darkness". They are the "top knot" (Brahmins), you are at the lowest level of consciousness. These quotes are accurately reflect what they are taught. If you search our Encyclopedia for "Murlis" you can read it for yourself.

It would help to know which year he became enculted, joined the BKWSU, because we can point you back to "Knowledge" that he has probably not been told by the BKWSU leaders. Likely, if he is a "faithful" BK, his whole relationship with you was to "serve" or encult you, relationships with non-BKs are, basically, forbidden and of "no benefit".

jann

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post12 Jun 2009

You are so right, ex-l, but to me it is hard to let go because I do not want to be like the BK Baba said I would be ..."first you're family, then your friends become enemies" ... So even I get 'cut up' while I don't want to. If I let go he will say ... "See ... Baba is right".

How do I fight that?!
ex-l wrote:But do it knowing that the effect might take years to work its way out. Do it calmly and gently but firmly.

It's the long road I am following, the result is yet unknown.

His friendship is tremendous, my greatest joy, yet knowing it all might be a fraud is my greatest pain.

starchild

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post12 Jun 2009

Hi Jannisder.

I have not read through all your story. will try to get the idea later when I have time.
His friendship is my greatest joy ... hope it is not a fraud

A quick instinctive response: I would not think so. As ex-l says, most are good people.
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tom

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Re: My BK friend is confused

Post12 Jun 2009

Dear Jannisder and dear Starchild,

In personal relationships, partnerships, love affairs, and with our best intention, we can deceive ourselves and our partner because of fear of losing our beloved one. This can give false hope which we are not able to fulfill, to ourselves and to our partner.
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