Hello, I am new here

If you have issues with Americans, please be frank about it but to judge the 12-Step program and Oprah is not the best way as they have been very helpful to many people and have their place in American society.

OK,

I apologise without reservation for making such a general statement. It was lazy and I should have been more specific. I abhor the level of consciousness that is used to create sentiments of nationalism, as human beings, I believe we are all one and patriotism based on false national identities is most certainly used in a cultic fashion to control and abuse ordinary people ... to the point of mass genocides ... and as a distraction from the more real and pressing issues that we face. I also often do exactly what you have just done, stopping people from reinforcing simplistic negative racial or national stereotypes.

I think this discussion is good but it should be split off into its own topic ...

I think I reacted strongly against the basic equation that "if your family does not believe in God and pray together ... you are sick" supported by the Brahma Kumari like ordination that "if your family ever has an argument or disagreements ... it is also sick" and so on. Very quickly, it read to me far too much like the Brahma Kumari expectations of external perfection and control leading to manipulation.

I would argue that there are plenty of very happy and healthy secular or atheist families ... AND relative to Asia ... very happy and healthy polytheist families that believe in many gods. In fact, I will probably step out of line and say that the healthiest communities or nations ... ARE ... actually secular or polytheist and monotheism has been the harbinger of the most godless and cruel acts on Earth.

There is goodness in what has been written but it needs refined, partly to suit tour BKWSU experience and, partly, to remove the cultural biases present within it.

So, how do I define that part of Middle America ... "A-murika, one national under God" ... that then goes out and drops thousand of tonnes of bombs or chemical agents mainly on women and children? That is incredibly blinkered and nationalist in its vision. Obviously, on the other hand, America has produced some of the greatest modern thinkers and artists (often DESPITE or in reaction AGAINST not BECAUSE of the other A-murika) ... and cheerleaders. So it cannot be all bad.

As the dominant culture in the world, perhaps we ought to discuss American from a spiritual perspective elsewhere ... seen as it is by the Brahma Kumaris, as a "vicious", "fighting monkey" that is going unleash its nuclear arsenal to "purify" the world, ignorant, unself-realised and doomed to sink beneath the oceans within the next few years.

As for Oprah ... yes, in the old days, I thought that she did great work in making people speak and listening. Yes, on an real level, she has probably help hundred of times more people than the Brahma Kumaris but recently I was sorely disappointed by her and is a genuine charitable giver.

But she presents herself, or has been presented as being vegetarian ... but then sells out and does a big national KFC Chicken nuggets promotion. A cynical marketing promotion by a white male dominated corporation targeting a primarily black female market (in American chicken and junk food tends to be the cheap meat that makes up the African-American diet. The people kept as slaves, at least to corporations, through poor nutrition and education).

I thought she had sold out. Do a Google for 'the Oprah Chicken Riots of '09'. I mean, why did she not use her power and influence do a big promotion for veggie burgers, salad or brown rice health food? It is all about the money ...

Thanks ex-l for clarifying your point of view.

One thing we know for sure is that every country, government, society, and religious group is made up of various parts. This can and has created many levels of hypocrisy, and America certainly is not exempt. We know that the BKWSO reeks of hypocrisy, and they are certainly not alone. Oprah may have "sold out" as you say, but maybe because she is no longer vegetarian. I don't know the facts but I will look into the link you posted.

I have always thought of America as the naive, but enthusiastic youngest child of the family. The eternal optimist who has not had enough life experience to make the wisest choices. India, on the other hand, seems to me like the grandparent that is wise but still caught up in its old ways, stubbornly defending customs that no longer serve humanity. The grandparent will be conservative in its errors, but the young turk will be impulsive and make simplistic decisions and statements such as the ones you mentioned.

What I do know is that 'people are people are people' and at the end of the day, they are human no matter how hard they try to be superhuman, superior or "Godly". This doesn't excuse their behavior, but eventually we must all accept that we are mortal beings. Realising this is part of wisening up. As youngsters we think we're immortal and invincible. Realising we are mortal does not mean anything other than realising we are humans and treating each other with the kindness that mortality deserves. The BKWSO has taken this essential element of maturing the soul and annhilated it: If the U.S. is going to nuke the planet and we are all going to die a horrid death, then what's the point of behaving like humans at all?

When I was still meditating with the BKWSO, I also started to get different kinds of visions of Destruction and, yes, I saw that a big city in the U.S. would be nuked. But do I believe that today? Hell no! For all I know the spooks may have planted that vision in my head intentionally to keep me in fear and to make me believe that these visions were true. There is no way I will contribute to any thought of Destruction especially not for the BK spooks.

Regardless of the idiotic activities that occur in the U.S., I don't hope for its destruction and pray that human beings will come to their senses and destroy nuclear arms rather than destroy the planet.

All said and done, generalising dangerously falls into both categories of "unenlightened" commentary, which everybody is guilty of at some point in time. Humans generalise . Perhaps creating a new thread is a good idea. Your insights, ex-l, are always appreciated.

rayoflight, thank you for your insightful post.

Regardless of the idiotic activities that occur in the U.S., I don't hope for its destruction and pray that human beings will come to their senses and destroy nuclear arms rather than destroy the planet."

Amen. So say we all!

I think it is extremely unfair to burden the people of any nation with the wrong decisions of the governments of that country. Looking a bit into the history is enough to see that there is no nation in the world in which the governments or rulers have not taken decisions "for the sake of their own people!" to destroy violently some of their own people, and people and livelihood of other countries. All flags on earth are dirty with human blood.

I do believe with all my heart, that common conscience of majority, feelings of responsibility, compassion and love for all livelihood will have a quantum effect and transform the consciousness of all of us.

When I was still meditating with the BKWSO, I also started to get different kinds of visions of Destruction and, yes, I saw that a big city in the U.S. would be nuked. But do I believe that today? Hell no!

Same here ... I had vivid impression of scenes of Destruction where I was living at that time which I was sure must have been "real". It never happened. I live hundreds of miles away, have no connection with it at all, and have never been back there for more than half of my life.

What was it all about? Hypnotically implanted, psychically induced, or just mental chatter?

The entire issue of the creation of national consciences by way of group identities is an interesting one and related to discussions we had around the concept of the "egregore" I think. See here and elsewhere. Lekhraj Kirpalani had his own strange 1930s kind of nationalism ... part-Bharat worship, part-devotion to British Royalty) who it is said shopped at his jewelry store in Calcutta when the city was the headquarters of the British Empire in India0, including a condemnation of the Indian Independence movement. But after the success of the "crow race" of the Congress party, "dictator" Gandi and Independence, the BKs seems shamelessly shape-shifted back again to more of a Hindu nationalism and Hindu Pride, IMHO.

Recently, they have become anything from Hindu conservatives to American patriots (Human Greatness) according to their marketing. Again ... just stray observations requiring more consideration.