Hello, I am new here

Hello everyone. I was thinking very long time to finally be courageous and make a decision to register here. If it's improper place, I kindly ask Admin to move it where it should fit.

I joined BK in 1994 when I was 19 - it was a very hard time to me as my parents were separating (my mother completely surrendered to BK in 1993) even though they were marriage until my Father's death. As I mentioned it was very difficult to me to deal with all the problems I had (I had no idea about it what they are about to) - last class of high school - final exams, many sleepless nights ... I just was NOT able to study, to learn, to think and what is worse I blamed myself for it, I disappointed everybody. Finally I was even NOT able to think about the exams I got into deep depression (first severe episode of what I had no idea though). On the day of my exams I went to school but as I approach the front door I turned away and very slowly went back home.

On that day I felt that everything is completely useless and senseless to me. When I got home I said to my parents that I will never go to school. And closed myself in my room staring senselessly in the ceiling everyday. I stopped to eat, to sleep, to wash myself ... I even stopped to talk to anyone. It did not impressed to my parents - Father preferred rather his colleagues and having a good fun with alcohol, and my mother as I mentioned before has had in that time already surrendered to the BK. So, I was completely alone and in the deep desperation. Sometimes my colleagues have visited me trying to convince me to return to school but I was saying NO. The only help I needed was a psychological help but I did not realize that and besides no one was caring of it. Nevermind. This is the past.

Some day my mother finally noticed that I am constantly in bad mood and invited me to some meeting in a local community centre - it was in the time when BK students returned from Madhuban and were sharing with their experiences. Nothing suspicious - just a typical meeting with some interesting people telling about their interests ... an exotic atmosphere, incense sticks, vegetarian food, short meditation. I went there because I had nothing to lose - even in my dreams I did not suppose that this meeting will completely change my life.

I stayed with them helping to clean the room and removing decorations and, on that same day, I went to the centre-in-charge for a tea. I was completely astonished, shocked and bewitched with that place. White walls with big strange colourful pictures hanging on. Strange red lamp and a portrait of some Hindu old man in white clothes who was smiling in a very hypnotic way. And his eyes - he was looking in a such way that I had goosebumps.

So I was talking a little with the BKs among them was my mother - we had tea, toli, etc. I was feeling there very comfortable and I asked a sister-in-charge whether I could come here anytime to help or just to spend some time. She agreed and since then I started to spend whole days in center-in-charge, and after a week or two I decided to take a 7 day course. I had no questions. Even the celibacy and odd vegetarian diet were no problems for me. More over, when I heard to die in my life - it took me one day to completely change myself (I destroyed/sold or just gave to others many MCs with "kaliyuga" music, computer games, sold my books, changed my dress code and started breaking contacts with my friends, colleagues, family). I surrendered in 100%. My mother was completely astonished with my rapid transformation. Sorry - my Sister, a soul who was playing a role of being my mother.

Eh, that period of sweet intoxication ... I felt like I am on high - it lasted few months and after that - completely cut off and hard painful landing. Time to make more efforts. Finally, I became a student. A Godly one. I got my own shawl, a badge, my notebook and my new, the one and only Brahmin family, welcomed me with a loud applause. I started to live a real BK life-meditating, serving, participating in every Murli class. Finally I got a very important function - became a "multimedia man" and soon after a computerized multimedia man and part time translator.

I returned to school but it wasn't me anymore as my the one and only thing in my mind was "to serve". I was so cheeky that even gave a class on math on the subject of Raja Yoga meditation (my wonderful teacher was so tolerant that she not only threw me out of the class but peacefully listened to all that bullsh** of mine). This is one and only one example of what BK has done good to me - thankfully I was able to finished my high school even though I did not passed the high school exams.

I made quite a big impression on a Regional Coordinator and I gave a permission to go to Madhuban - been there in the spring of 1995. I was very exciting of Shiv Jayanti, meeting God in personal! But when it started and I saw thousands of Brahmins from all over the world sitting there in almost religious ecstasy , with tears in their eyes and I, among them feeling completely nothing, I started to feel sadness, anger, disappointment - who may be so cruel to have pleasure cheating me in a such way?! Who deceived me?! This evening I found myself in Global Hospital because of sickness and exhaustion.

I got out next day on Holi celebration and since then I started to think by myself. I tried to ask anyone why I was felt nothing supernatural besides terrible pain in my back, headache and seeing an obvious woman in a white sari who was sitting on stage and speaking Hindi in a very frightening whisper-like manner.

And everyone smiled to me and responded to me just as "You have to had deeper Yoga/be in deeper rememberance of Baba/give it to Baba" Just as they were programmed to speak this one sentence on and on. And with that I felt even more disappointment and feeling of being cheated. More over I felt that by asking such impertinent questions I am breaking the God's law - no asking "Why?", "What?" and "How?"

After returning from Madhuban I stopped to investigate why I was feeling nothing, and took several tries to finished with BKism. Heh, I did not suppose how difficult it would be. As I was stopping to go to the class then my Brahmin family started to phone me home, giving some presents, showing how much they are worrying because of my absence, and because I was controlled very strictly by my own mother, I was returning with ever more rising the feeling of guilt and stings of remorse. Besides, there were the Meditation of Peace programmes where I was just irreplaceable and necessary Godly multimedia man.

In 1999 I had an accident - I was beaten by some hools on drugs equipped with bats. That night I finished in the hospital on the dental surgery ward having broken jawbone. But this also gave me strength to try the last one time to finish with BK. It was so special time because there were nobody in the city who might stop me or control me - everybody went to Madhuban - it happed in the middle of February 1999. I did not informed my Father before I went to the hospital because he was drunk and was sleeping. They phoned him from the ward next day while I was already hospitalized. This was a deep trauma for me and it released hidden mental issues collected through all my life.

When I returned home from the hospital having railed jaws but in one piece I started to realize my strategy of getting divorce with that so called Ocean of Love who with great love scared me in almost every Murli about the inevitable destruction of humanity and recommended just not to think about it, have a constant and deep Yoga with him and remain in a soul stage. Thank to my friends who even thought I broke contacts with them they did not forget about me (we started to visit each other) and to my Father who just was letting me to eat his food I slowly started to get rid of BK diet habits. I was starting also to change my dress code and ordered my life that was head over heels until now. I started to read books, newspapers, buy some music - do what I really like for my own egoistic pleasures.

And I was so naive thinking that THEY just will leave me alone and let me live. When my mother returned from Madhuban and saw me with a plaster cast on my face, and dressing BLACK not white she told me nothing but since then she started to organize for herself "sessions of silence" - she was going with the big badge pinned to her breast signed "SILENCE" not telling to me and my Father ANY word. She was hoping that in this way she could force me to return to BK but I was not going to. Then she was giving me "incidentally" invitations for Meditations of Peace meetings, sending some tolis, small gifts - I was fighting with her but denied to accept. But in mind I felt very awful and felt guilt for doing harm to her. I decided to make a compromise-not to stop meditate.

One day when I was meditating being completely alone I felt something strange in my mind, terrible pain in my head, got blood running from my nose and lost consciousness. After I came to my senses (it lasted probably an hour or more when I was laying on the floor being unconscious) I realized that THIS is a kind of a WARNING to me - I MUST FINISHED WITH BK BY ANY CHANCE !!!

A year later I was diagnosed by (not a BK) specialist - I suffer from mental disorder called depression, have got a high level of fear and I am classified as a borderline person (I did an MMPI test). More over I was told that I was lucky enough to meditate having mental disorder that it hadn't finished with autohypnosis or deep trance-like stage of mind. Funny thing is that when I was trying many times to speak with anyone about my often headaches when I was meditating (even with Dadis or psychiatrist while I was in Global Hospital) - the only answer they had to me was have a deep Yoga.

So, I physically finished with BK in 2000, after being 6 years in Gyan but mentally the whole brahmakumarismic poison is still in me.

My family situation which is very bad force me to live with my mother who has been being a BK for 16 years and she still is trying to force me to go back to BK as she is not and never won't reconcile herself with the fact I am not and never will be a BK again - in 2006 she tried to hypnotize me and bring more Brahmins home because she was thinking that evil spirits possessed me (I escaped then and go straight to the police department making an accusation of being emotionally terrorized by my mother who is in a cult group-I was scared that she and my so-called Brahmin family would be able to do me REAL brainwashing I couldn't even imagine when she will bring them home).

Sometimes it's so hard that the thoughts about committing a suicide are coming. No more Dharamraj thinking, no more panicked mood of Final Doom, no more thinking of being a pariah/Shudra or something worse, a traitor of family of future deities and of the "God" himself. Banished and cursed forever.

But finding such place as this forum make me feel that I am not the only one in the world, that there is nothing to be ashamed of sharing such stories.

I cannot count on my own family - I must be on my own. Hope that finally I will solve my problem - a month ago I started to go to the foundation run by the Dominicans - they help people after cult groups. This is the only professional kind of help in my city - there are very few psychologists trained in helping post-sect victims (in my country unfortunately the problem of sects is marginalized), groups of support don't even exist and psychiatrists have no ideas of the so-called post-sect syndrome - they only recommend hospitalizing or/and pharmacological therapy.

So, this is my story. It was very hard to me to me to throw it all out. Thank you all for the reading. Sorry for my poor English.

Warm regards,

Raistlin

Welcome Raistlin. I am very sorry to hear about your experiences.

Your English is perfectly clear and good enough, plus we have the background experience to understand what you are talking about.

Of course, you are being made victim to superstitions. You need to clear all the voices of the BK completely from out of your head.

Unfortunately, you are not alone in your experience. I salute your courage at coming forward and documenting your experiences so that other might benefit from them. What is your local BK center like? Is it ruled by Indians? We have been find a lot of corruption and subtle abuses going on, manipulation of people for money, property and so on.

It sounds like your situation is extreme and I would not rule out going to hospital if you need to ... use it both as a rest and a break from your family. Perhaps there are social workers who can find you accommodation of your own afterwards? Better to put yourself in voluntarily, so that you can leave whenever you want, rather than be put in involuntary ... or dead!

There are people that have physically been out of the BKWSU for decades but are still mentally trapped. We have had a few here. I wish you better luck.

I am sure it will not offend you for me to say that it is obvious from your background that you many influences that would have made you very vulnerable to a sect like the BKWSU. You will probably have to think about and address those experiences, e.g. the parental alcoholism, childhood neglect and religious background. It is hard work at times, but I am sure you will manage.

Have you thought about finding or looking for a local 'Al-Anon' (for family of alcoholics and other addicts) group?

Dear Raistlin,

Thank you for sharing your story with us. You have gone through so much and it is really amazing that you are here because you are certainly not alone. There are many more readers than there are contributors, so your story is greatly appreciated.

I too am very sorry for all you have had to endure on many levels. It is clear that you are a fighter and that your spirit is much more alive than perhaps your experiences give you credit for. It is a very good idea to try to connect to others and to ask questions to help clarify any doubts you may have. It is the only way to really stop the vicious cycle of guilt and confusion.

Welcome and much luck to you in healing and exiting once and for all!!

rayoflight

Hello ex-I, rayoflight

Greetings from Poland. Thank you very much for a warm welcoming.

I am sure it will not offend you for me to say that it is obvious from your background that you many influences that would have made you very vulnerable to a sect like the BKWSU. You will probably have to think about and address those experiences, e.g. the parental alcoholism, childhood neglect and religious background. It is hard work at times, but I am sure you will manage.

Have you thought about finding or looking for a local 'Al-Anon' (for family of alcoholics and other addicts) group?

Yes, you're absolutely right, I did not mention it in my post - I am ACOA (my Father was overusing alcohol but he did not suffer from alcohol illness-died on lungs cancer - he was smoking a lot since his 15) and ACOD too (Adult Child of Dysfunctional Family as approx 70% of my family have this syndrome) - that purely explains why I was so perfect target for this cult. Low self-esteem, great need of being accepted by a group and seeking for other people with similar problems to mine just to feel safe - we are all equal, aren't we? Alone/divorced/separated/from broken or just plainly dysfunctional families, with mental problems - more or less severe - just unhappy. If we hadn't so - who would be even in wildest dreams without any force from the outside, having free will and hands decided to just sacrifice its own life to that weird entity called itself a GOD of all religions?!

The ACOA are able to make the greatest sacrifices even if the other people do NOT totally deserve this. This is one of the many features characterizing a typical ACOA.

In 2002, I incidentally was invited to an open meeting for ACOA by my very good friend - we met on a therapeutical group where I was going - after that accident in 1999 I suffered from the great fear of people - when I saw someone who was behaving just loudly (but not exactly aggressively) I was automatically starting to remind that night on 22nd February 1999 and run home as hell no matter what I was doing at the same time. Annie is her name (in Polish - Ania) and I am her eternal debtor for what she has done to me - she was the first person who did unfreeze my feelings and broke and completely destroyed "my spiritual(istic) 6 years old armour" of abnormal BK habits.

After some session when I was just about to literally flee home (I was doing that after every therapy session - saying "see you next time, guys" to other participants and fleeing home), Annie asked me to stay for a moment and asked me if I would let her hugging me for goodbye. My mind was of course yelling: NO! YOU CANNOT! YOU ARE A SOUL-BROTHER AND SHE IS YOUR SOUL-SISTER! ONCE A BK ALWAYS A BK! but I said to her just: Yes. And she hugged me very hard and softly at the same time. There was so much pure unconditional love in it - nothing sexual, just pure feeling of friendship, care and unconditional love (I had no idea of that). We started to cry - we just burst in tears. It was such a beautiful feeling, few minutes later we hugged with other people - we felt as we're breaking some walls inside of everyone. In one short time, we made so much that we were not able to during few earlier sessions with a professional psychologist. We decided to make this hug a kind of our ritual - since then we were hugging ourselves after every session until the end.

A week before the last session Annie invited me to a Christmas Eve - an open meeting for ACOAs - I had no idea what she was talking about but I was feeling that I have to go there.

When I got there there were about twenty people - men and women who were just hugging, laughing and crying of being happy to see each other - we were making the same thing as Annie did to me - even those people were strangers and I knew no one except from Annie. During the part of reading texts when they read about the typical ACOA' features I identified with every feature. At last I knew who I am and why I am as I am. And what's more important I was taking no responsibility for what I became as a child. Thanks to my friends from the ACOA community I started to read books about this syndrome and learned a lot about myself. They gave me the power and strength to fight with it to have finally normal and happy life.

Actually I drop hardly ever to the meetings because since last year Miss D(epression) is unfortunately back in her heaviest stage - I was hospitalized from September to December 2008, then in January 2009 I was in a daily open ward and again got hospitalized in February 2009, till the end of March.

Perhaps there are social workers who can find you accommodation of your own afterwards?

Heh, if it would all be so simple but unfortunately is not. I have been getting some social help since 2008 - a benefit but going to the welfare centre and asking them for help was like going into the lion's den - my mother know everyone there as she had worked there for 11 years as a HR specialist until she retired in 2001.

But this is better than nothing anyway. The only solution for me is to move out as soon as possible and totally break contact with my mother. I even think to move to another city, perhaps emigrate but this maybe later. Every place that won't remind me of BKWSU would be good. So, as you see, I know what to do but I am not able to do that at the moment. I even cannot count on a funny micro-sized social flat (of 13 metres capacity) because the flat of my mother is for the officers from the department of flats just too BIG. (61.3 metres, 3 rooms), and it doesn't matter to them that I am being constantly terrorized and mentally forced to go back to BK by my mother-a person in a sect. For those bureaucrats, such things as mental terror don't exist and are just our own inner family problems that should be solved only by us both.

It sounds like your situation is extreme and I would not rule out going to hospital if you need to ... use it both as a rest and a break from your family

Dear ex-I, thank you for your care and hospitality but I am sure there are many people whose situation is much worse than mine. I at least have a place to live and all of those obstacles, well, the ACOAs through many years had learned how to survive even the worst hell, so I take a mirtazapinum and think I will survive that one too . BTW, I have just started to work with a qualified in cult groups psychologist, I am starting my first session on the next Tuesday.

What is your local BK center like? Is it ruled by Indians? We have been find a lot of corruption and subtle abuses going on, manipulation of people for money, property and so on.

My local BK center doesn't exist anymore - it transformed a couple of years ago into the so-called Gallery of Meditation, but I don't know what is it like and I am not going to even think to go there. I live in a city called Lodz, an hour and a half of traveling by train from Warsaw. BK was the most active in the middle of nineties, later many people quit and nowadays there is rather small amount of newcomers.

As for the corruption I have no idea how this looks like here perhaps of that BKWSU is in Poland a very mysterious organization "afilliated of course to the UN", teaching people how to think positively and be stress-free and, of course, The Ancient Raja Yoga as well (it would be better fit "How to learn to drive a Ferrari on a 7 Day course having no idea of driving a car and traffic moving. Because, IMHO, Ashtang/Raj Yoga IS like DRIVING a FAST CAR - it is very complex, very difficult, demanding of many sacrifices and renunciations done by being completely aware of what that Hindu philosophy and ancient path of supreme Enlightenment really is and why there are 8 limbs strictly connected to each other. And as many of the spiritual authorites (i.e. Dalai Lama XIV) say, IT'S NOT RECOMMENDED FOR THE PEOPLE FROM THE West. Should I mention that also a perfect condition of body and mind IS A MUST for a Raj Yogi?

In my opinion, it should be forbidden to anyone who suffer from any mental disorder. No, dear BK sisters-in-charge and bics - your economic cut version of modified Patanjali's Raja Yoga IS NEITHER EASY NOR SUITABLE TO ANYONE. And what is placed in the somelike a FAQ Section on your official site and hidden should be OBLIGATORY put in the front side - that consulting the psychiatrist before anyone will start to meditate IS A MUST CONDITION NOT YOUR (KIND) RECOMMENDATION. Just as eg. any person who suffer from anorexia nervosa will never get the permission from his/her doctor to make Hatha Yoga exercises or to train any martial arts, or just to do anything demanding a good condition of body unless his/her weight will be normal.

No, it is not ruled by any Indians, but by Polish women, unfortunately strictly dependent on UK which means no democration, and no common sense. More over, they were brought up on a strict Roman Catholicism which makes all the Polish centres to be run (but ''ruled'' should probably fit better here) in a rather medieval way than modern, e.g. able to brainstorming on Murlis and of lifestyle/philosophy/habits manner.

Of course, there were some examples of subtle abuses, abuse the authority or sister-in-charge position but being abused by someone was named as "an exam to pass" - am I sensitive to someone else's verbal abuse or not? I heard that a couple of times. But it is similar to me as a sentence or some kind of a proverb - when someone is spitting at you think of it as if it's raining. There are people of great charisma and totally aware of it and a tiny BK is crushed by their charisma and authority to the pieces - how should someone even think of mentioning that she/he is behaving in a very bad, far from royal, manner?

I met some great people (ex-BKs) who had finally the courage to tell me that they feared of sisters-in-charge many times and the regional coordinator as well. They felt to them not a respect but only a fear. Fear for authorities is another typical feature characterizing an ACOA.

Let's deal with another myth of the so-called zeal and enthusiasm of Polish group. Truly spontaneous, straight from the heart, with pure love or rather caused by fear from sisters-in-charge and subtle force? Let's say it was a rhetorical question.

I am sorry ex-I and rayoflight for my bitter and sarcastic statements but I am still angry to the BK sweet sisters-in-charge because of their egocentrism, selfishness and abuse of the position of authority, being completely careless of someone else's feelings and emotions (oh, well, I almost forgot, feelings and emotions are typical bodily and therefore useless and one should concentrate on building his own future fortune instead of looking how others behave - who cares?!). And my rage raised even more after I read what happened to the poor Esther, Ranjana and Sharad, other BKs in India who commit a suicide, and of this case of children abuse in the headquarters in Madhuban (I had no idea about all this filth-did someone notice a slight of mentioning that in any of "Purity" issue?, naaah!). I felt sick reading all this posts. It's just disgusting. It's a pathological and criminal. And there should be taken sanctions to everyone responsible for all of that, punishment and this would be the very REAL cause for excommunication such people.

There are surely some real BKs who have many precious features (I should say they did not forget how to be a human-true humans), completely involving in doing a good service as Lekhraj Kirpalani probably dreamt of in the very beginning of this community, but I am afraid that there are just a few of them having not enough strength to deal with all that bad things. Perhaps it's The Torch? I wish them very well and make my thumbs up for being successful in that matter they are dealing with but I am afraid, it's just my humble opinion, that it would be a real miracle if someone would be able to reform and change the corrupted BKWSU Management who are completely deaf to hear any voice of a common sense and totally blind to see all that dirty stuff.

But is not it told in that famous proverb that "the fish is rotting from its own head"?

Enough writing for today, I think.

Good night ex-l and rayoflight (as here it's 0:10) but on the other hand ... have a nice day too? .

Welcome raistlin! Thanks for sharing your story and congratulations for your courage.

I think it is important that stories like yours come out in the public. There are probably more such stories than we can imagine. It is all part of the hidden face of the BKWSU.

I wish you the best in your healing process.

Yes, I agree ti-pit, raistlin is obviously one of the strong ones who has made it through the experience. I am always aware and concerned that what we see here is just the tiny tip of the iceberg and what about of all the others that don't make it through? Especially in India.

Congratulations for turning your experience around, raistlin, and for aiming to become an post-cult therapist. That is interesting.

Did you read on this forum about the papers written by Agnieszka Koscianska ("On Celibate Marriages: Conversion to the Brahma Kumaris" and others)? It strikes me that she would be a good person to speak too and that she analysed the Polish BKWSU scene very well. I'd appreciate reading what you saw of the Polish BKWSU, its leaders and any other zones.

You can also publish your experiences in Polish for Polish readers, here: ex-BK Nederland, Deutschland und Osteuropa.

"Strictly", by the rules, the BKWSU is suppose to exclude anyone with mental illnesses but I think that is a joke as they don't ask, consider what they are doing a cure for them and if you were to seriously review the adherents, how many of them would fit into various categories? You know the old joke, "you don't have to be mad to work here ... but it helps".

The issue of Roman Catholic influences was raised, here: The influence of Catholicism etc on one's becoming a BK. I think it is fair to say there are various types of Catholicism practised but I suspect the Polish church is much the same.

Recently others have come out and spoken about their experience of being a child in the BKWSU.

Hi, Raistlin! Welcome and congratulation for finding the courage to write!

You will benefit from having taken such a step and started to empty the bag.

Welcome dear Raistlin,

Thank you for your sincere and lovely posts. I am sure you will find here all sources for your healing and you will recover soon.

I was very lucky, meeting the BKs in my mature age after having had the gift of a child. I, myself, was never deeply hurt by any BK or by any center-in-charge or by any of the Seniors. I have good memories with most of them personally but the wrong behaviours of the Seniors' towards others and their incredible lies to the new ones opened my eyes and I left them. I was very lucky that I found this forum. At the beginning months, long I was a silent reader without any courage to post anything. I was still under the influence of the doctrine. And through PM with the Admin of this forum and with ex-l, with both of them who devoted their times, energy and money with great sacrifice to help others like me, and with the help of Dear God whom I found again after I recognized the BKs' false Shiva and the channelled entities - the so called Bap and Dada who are IMO nothing but earthbound hungry spooks who are fed by BKs' energy, I got rid of my chains. Therefore
I cannot thank God enough.

After I felt free from my BK conditioning, besides this forum I got spiritual help mostly from two websites:

Spiritual Science Research Foundation. They have effective remote healing methods for all psychic influences, for most of the mental disorders and very nice mantras for self healing. I had some correspondence with them and witnessed that they are seriously ready to offer help to anybody who writes them. At that time I felt myself totaly free and healthy and have not asked for their advice but this option is always open for all of us, after having been mentally abused decades long in a spooky cult. Even reading around the pages helps to widen our perspective, which has been so narrowed during our BK time.

Dr. Zhi Gang Sha This incredible healer, MD., and author of 10 books, composer, Soul Songs singer, teacher, master of Qi Gong, is a modern shaman with great intuitive powers and ancient healing arts knowledge who teaches everybody self-healing methods and trains teachers and healers to teach others to heal themselves. I would recommend his powerful Soul Songs MP3 for healing of depression and anxiety, grief, fear, and for all bodily problems, which you can download for one dollar each. I would recommend his free services, Free Soul Healing Blessings for Humanity through webcast at Saturdays, free Sunday Divine Blessings through teleconference and free Soul Healing Water which you can prepare, and to watch his podcasts and TV shows videos on his website.

Take care.

Hello again,
Thank you all for very inspiring and supporting posts. You gave me so much advice I have got to think it over now
This time I'd like to show you something interesting I found a couple of years ago in the internet:

FROM THE ADULT CHILDREN EDUCATIONAL FOUNDATION COMPUTER BULLETIN BOARD - (703) 821-2925

SICK FAMILIES
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. A sick family has no active higher power, i.e., God.
2. A sick family lives in fear and teaches fear of others different from itself in race, religion, color, nationality, etc.
3. A sick family believes that you must "do for yourself," since there is no God to guide you.
4. A sick family believes that to be happy and successful you must make, marry or have money.
5. A sick family believes that to have a worthwhile identity you must gain the approval of the outside world--and especially the approval of the
family itself.
6. A sick family feels that the family should stick together and depend on each other to the exclusion of the outside world. The exception to this is when the family finds outsiders identical to themselves.
7. A sick family teaches that the authority figures in the family are right.
8. A sick family teaches that marriage completes the identity of the individual.
9. A sick family feels a glow of achievement when a family member does "well," and feels let down when a family member does "badly."
10. A sick family teaches each member to adapt to the emotional sickness of the group and feels threatened when a family member seeks outside help.
11. A sick family has fights, arguments, violence, hate, criticism, grief, lusts, resentment, jealousies, fantasies, anger, depression, euphoria, and teaches conditional love.
12. A sick family feels totally abandoned at the death or departure of a loved member of the group.
13. This type of family tries to hold itself together through guilt and pity, which it calls "love." It also creates expectations regarding each other.
14. A sick family believes everyone within the group should like the same things and people.
15. A sick family is conditioned by the beliefs and experiences of the past and is unable to live a serene and peaceful present. This type of family perceives only a fearful future.
16. A sick family thrives on excitement and teaches through sick experience that if you are not excited you are not alive.
17. A sick family teaches that everything you see, hear, taste, touch and smell is the only reality and that there is nothing beyond the sense world or in the invisible.
18. A sick family does not know how to pray or meditate.
19. A sick family believes that strength is togetherness - when strength actually is in oneness with the higher power, God.
20. A sick family can be a person, a family, a community, a church, a Twelve-Step group, a state, a country, a therapy group, a world, and an entire universe.

Actually, it is in a reference to a dysfunctional family but IMO I wonder if there would be also some points of reference to a cult or any destructive group because its lifestyle/ideology/system of beliefs is rather far from normal-it's "sick".

Yes, dear Raistlin, exactly true. All cults are sick. The world is sick now. But I do believe as Dr. Zhi Gang Sha says:

I have the power to heal myself.
You have the power to heal yourself.
We both have the power to heal the world.

1. A sick family has no active higher power, i.e., God ...
18. A sick family does not know how to pray or meditate.
19. A sick family believes that strength is togetherness - when strength actually is in oneness with the higher power, God.

I don't know, I would have to reject the like of these and suggest that instead, you though a little bit about your own experiences and picked out and related them directly to the BKWSU.

For me, the likes of the above are overly "American" and, I apologise, I am using that in the pejorative sense of the word. They smack a little too much of American Christianity, the 12 Step Programme, anti-godless communism, and all sorts of gushy Oprah Winfrey "self-help" industry stuff. I would want to know who the author was and where they were coming from ... what they were selling as a cure afterwards.

I have two problems with them ... one, they are so broad so that they could encapsulate anyone at anytime; two, all this "God" stuff. Why? Personally, I think humanity should take a big break from God and 'de-tox' from organized religion, to get over the addiction in my words. And then just see what happens.

If I was to re-write them, I would start off with,

1. A sick family is one that has no intellectual activity and does not its understanding of the world uptodate
2. A sick family is one that does not practise logical, critical analysis etc

I checked on the internet but could not find who the group were. I did find the following. Perhaps you could merge the two into your own BK exiting method? We did discuss the Cult-like Aspects of the BKWSU elsewhere and had a sort of half-joke, half-true ex-BK 12 Step Programme topic.

WHAT IS CO-DEPENDENCY?

1. My good feelings about who I am stem from being liked by you.
2. My good feelings about who I am stem from receiving approval from you.
3. Your struggle affects my serenity. My mental attention focuses on solving
your problems or relieving your pain.
4. My mental attention is focused on pleasing you.
5. My mental attention is focused on protecting you.
6. My mental attention is focused on manipulating you. (To do it my way).
7. My self esteem is bolstered by solving your problems.
8. My self esteem is bolstered by relieving your pain.
9. My own hobbies and interests are put aside. My time is spent sharing your
interests and hobbies.
10. Your clothing and personal appearance are dictated by my desires as I
feel you are a reflection of me.
11. Your behavior is dictated by my desires as I feel you are a reflection
of me.
12. I am not aware of how I feel, I am aware of how you feel.
13. I am not aware of what I want - I ask what you want. I am not aware - I
assume.
14. The dreams I have for my future are linked to you.
15. My fear of rejection determines what I say or do.
16. My fear of your anger determines what I say or do.
17. I use giving as a way of feeling safe in our relationship.
18. My social circle diminishes as I involve myself with you.
19. I put my values aside in order to connect with you.
20. I value your opinion and way of doing things more than my own.
21. The quality of my life is in relation to the quality of yours.

Dear ex-l,

at this point allow me to freshen up our memories. I must say I have nothing to do with American Christianity, or with any other religion since my childhood. I think I understand Raistlin's point by giving this "Sick Families" bulletin and IMO it mirrored the cults like BKWSU well.

I think humanity should take a big break from God and 'de-tox' from organized religion,

I think this was exactly this process what the Seniors of BKWSU with Murlis and the so called knowledge and with the Maryadas trying to do, brainwashing us during our pukka BK years.

We were taught to forget God of all humanity, Saints, Angels, Jesus, Allah, Jahova, or Tao, emptiness, Buddha, human goodness, or whatever until we met the BKs we believed in, prayed in stillness and what was sacred to us. We rejected our previous religions or beliefs. Years long I have not heard or have seen the word "God" much in the Murlis, I heard and cited only "Baba", "Shiva", "BapDada", "Brahma Baba". There was only one Angel "Brahma Baba". Every year in one or two Murlis Jesus was remembered. Word Allah also came once a year.

At 04:00 am in the morning when we opened our eyes we tried to invite "Baba" to our bedrooms. At the center or at home we meditated hours long looking at one dot, thinking to comprehend that "Almighty God is a dot". Sorry, not God, Shiva ... And looking at Brahma Baba's forehead thinking that Shiva, Baba, the dot is sitting there.

We were not allowed to think of God of all creation at all. Never to think of the Creator of the universe, universes. Only this world, which is going to be destroyed soon and Shiva as the Ocean of Love and Ocean of Mercy and Ocean of Knowledge, is a dot, our beloved Father, calling us "Sweet Children".

Shiva, personal Father of us Brahmins, not of all humanity ... is responsible only from us, from "His children" during these 100 years of Confluence Age and then resting as a dot in the Soul World, sorry, retiring from his work for 4900 years. This world is without any God for eternity.

We were thought and we thought to others that all religions were corrupted and not useful any more, they were only useful and sacred as long as the number of their followers were less than 100.

My peers, who never gave up meditating and praying at their subtle God of all humanity or whatever was sacred for them were not trapped and were never caught in the web of the BKs. They took years long from the BK package the good things which were useful for them, contributed as much as they could without sacrificing their private life, the lives of their family members and their relationships, their professions, and never become pukka, never became slaves of the center-in-charges and of the Seniors. And they left easily as soon as the atmosphere in the centers became unbearable peace-less and the Seniors' behavior became possessive and demanding.

Yes, BKWSU cult is sick, all cults are sick, dictating and forcing people what to believe, how to think, how to live is sick. We were also sick as we forced us to accommodate ourselves into BK mentality and into BK belief system and tried to convert others to give up their own beliefs which gave them power and helped them.

ex-l,

If you have issues with Americans, please be frank about it but to judge the 12-Step program and Oprah is not the best way as they have been very helpful to many people and have their place in American society.

I found both lists to be very interesting and thought provoking. The sick family list was eye opening to me on a personal level, and made me wonder if I did not just replace my own family's sickness with the BK family's sickness. The co-dependence list was a good addition as sick families tend to function on co-dependency.

tom's reply to the topic of God within this context also put things into a new perspective. To see these different aspects put together on one page makes me realise once again, the depth at which the BK system is insidious and causes deep confusion and discomfort.

To simply accept a dogma from a cult, so as not to deal with undoing the confusion, is not acceptance, belief or contentment, but complacency. However, it also relates to families in general. How often do people stay in psychologically sick situations for a variety of reasons?

Is the original family, the nuclear family/extended family, not the original "cult" where we are taught and raised on the existing beliefs, religion, ethics, morals (or lack of), etc. of that "cult"?

What we are looking for is the model of a healthy family, a healthy group, a healthy religion and a healthy idea of who and what God is. Since we have seen what a sick and unhealthy family is, perhaps we can now make a list of what is a healthy family.

to judge the 12-Step program and Oprah is not the best way as they have been very helpful to many people and have their place in American society.

Well, rayoflight, I can understand ex-I's comment. I am not sure where ex-l is located. I admit I have a West-European mindset and watching Oprah for me is mainly watching entertainment and an audience of people who have the glow in their eyes of devoties when she steps in. Never mind if the topic is shopping or spirituality. Oprah is extremely charismatic and my impression is that she has a lot of followers who like to listen to someone telling them what they should do, what to read, what to buy and what to believe. I have a hard time to believe that this way they are encouraged to start to think for themselves as free spirits.

I have the impression the "American-style", if you can call it this way, is not so much about encouraging people to think for themselves. To me, the style is quite moralistic. Just watch a show of Dr. Phil. Somehow he seems to be the conscience of the nation, and knows what is is right and wrong. It's all about morality. And, gosh, we had a lot of that stuff within the BK. That's why all these feelings of guilt and being ashamed are becoming so strong. Religion is an important factor in America, so it seems to me: "God bless America".

Religion is all about morality. Whether is is the church, the pope, a guru, an ayatollah, an iman, a priest, a daddy, a diddy, a sadhu ... they all know exactly what is good for us. And they all seem to know who is God and how his words should be explained.

Getting rid of morality to me was the first step to heal. To stop judging myself constantly according to the ideas others had put in my mind about right and wrong. These are human inventions. Religions made it their profession. And so often it leads to suppression.

I remember some BK told me once that it was impossible to think for yourself if you are getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning, focusing on a relationship with BapDada and a bit later you step in the Murli class, filling your head with all the thoughts of Brahma Baba. This system just takes away every opportunity to have an original free thought, to analyse, observe, investigate, being creative in your mind. So for me: no more concepts of God who knows what is right and wrong, whatsoever.

Since we have seen what a sick and unhealthy family is, perhaps we can now make a list of what is a healthy family

18. A sick family does not know how to pray or meditate

If this means means a healthy family does know how to pray, it would be definitely not my cup of tea. What about this one: "a healthy family does know how to listen".

"a healty family does know how to listen"

Thanks, lokila. That's a great start

As for Americans, there is really no comparison because they are free and freedom is what Americans stand for.
Oprah may be about entertainment, but she has given African-American women a sense of self-esteem and self-worth which is much more than the BKWSO has done for women. The BKWSO has taken women back 100 years while Oprah has given women a step forward.

We will always have leaders of every kind in society, but the quality of the leader is what needs to be looked at. If the BK leadership had been more empowering rather than being energy sucking vampires with icicles for veins and dry vacuum bags for hearts, perhaps I would still be supporting them. Oprah at least cries when someone outside of herself is victorious.

America has its problems and issues but criticising social progress maybe is not the best way to bring it down.