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dreadi

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Stay on the Ship ... Please ... & have Gyani fun

Post20 Jan 2010

Hello nischaybuddi and hi too to everyone else on the site. nischaybuddi, I apologise for editing your post in the manner shown below. And I apologise to all of you for going backwards a little when the conversation has moved on. However, as a casual observer of this website these are the particular words in one of your earlier posts that intrigue me ...
nischaybuddi did not wrote: ... According to Gyan, the world is perfect, everything is perfect and everyone is playing its accurate part including GOD. DRAMA is supreme. Even GOD is also in control of DRAMA. Baba himself said, that he is also in control of DRAMA ... Same thing applies here. Once you got the realization, that GOD's work of transformation is going on then all you have to do is to develop the faith ... and see, if faith is lacking then definitely it is MY PROBLEM as DRAMA is accurate...

nischaybuddi having noted that you are disinclined to post Murli's on the site, I would nonetheless like to ask you to substantiate your assertion that in the BKs Murli GOD can be read to say 'he' is in control of the DRAMA ... Thank you.

All this makes me wonder whether another reason I "failed" as a BK :D was because I never understood that the Murli points in which God is alleged to have said that, "... I (GOD) too am bound in/by the dictate(s) of drama" were actually asserting (as nischaybuddi did) that "Even GOD is also in control of DRAMA." Ah well, it makes me wonder whether even as a BK I was really doing Bhakti ...? And before anyone asks, I fully remember the Murli points in whihc GOD is alleged to have said that we BKs are the greatest Bhagats :oops: . So I guess it makes no difference after all ;).

nischaybuddi

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Re: Stay on the Ship ... Please ...

Post20 Jan 2010

I would nonetheless like to ask you to substantiate your assertion that in the BKs Murli GOD can be read to say 'he' is in control of the DRAMA.... Thank you.

Murli dated 13.01.2010

Q: Is drama ka bana banaya plan kaun saa hai, jisse baap bhi chut nahi sakta?
A: Har kalp main bap ko apne baccho ke paas ana hi hai, patit dukhi baccho ko sukhi banana hi hai, yaha drama ka plan bana hua hai, is bandhan se baap bhi chut nahi sakta


English translation may be like this

Q: What is the already made plan of drama from which even Father can not escape?
A: In every cycle, Father has to come to his children to make vicious and unhappy children happy, This is drama's plan already made, from this knot even Father cannot escape.

dreadi

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Re: Stay on the Ship ... Please ...

Post20 Jan 2010

nischaybuddi, thank you for your reply and I acknowledge the need to make allowance for subtleties of expression that translation may be unable to convey, however I still fail to be convinced that the Murli extract you have posted underlines your assertion that ..."Even GOD is also in control of DRAMA".

No matter how imaginative I try to be, my Third Eye seems made to home in on the phrase "the drama plan is already made" ... which can be taken as another way of saying that G-O-D is bound by the unfolding of the drama. NOT that GOD controls the drama ....so I repeat to myself "the drama plan is already made" !!! It does not need a Creator nor a Controller.

nischaybuddi, even without having read the Murli i can guess that somewhere within it GOD explains to the children that this act of His coming (according to drama's plan) every cycle in order to make vicious and unhappy children happy is an act that proves that He (GOD) is selfless, altruistic. Acting only in service of His beloved long lost and now found children. That He remains the only soul capable of such altruism. Would I be correct? A little bit correct? or totally wrong? ;) ;)

Here are some definitions of control. I wonder which (if any) of these you attribute to our Beloved Altruistic Shiv Baba ...

    - The power to direct or determine; "under control"
    - To exercise authoritative control or power over; "control the budget"; "Command the military forces"
    - To operate: handle and cause to function
    - To manipulate
There are good reasons why i do not feel that this is merely an intellectual exercise or a mindless exercising of the intellect. nischaybuddi, to put it simply: Does this control you ascribe to G-O-D mean that he causes and is responsible for all that is happening in the drama? Did GOD control the Earthquake that has recently befallen Haiti? Does GOD concern himself with such foolishess as bringing dead flies to life?

Dear www, you may not know it, but amongst other reasons, the BKs distinguish their teachings (and the status attainable through hearing and adhering to them) from those of ALL other religions, because their GOD spoken Murli claims to impart to them teachings and understandings of these subtle things about who God is, how God is, and what God is. They are taught to rid themselves of those agyani belief's that ascribe to GOD such powers through which we humans believe that GOD has control over everything! Am I wrong or right nischaybuddi?

I just took some time to read a few of the your posts on this topic and I am reminded of a word one contributor sometimes used to describe these gyan-laden spoutings that get posted over here i.e. oblox.

Anyway that is all from me, So Stay on the Ship ... Please ...
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ex-l

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Post20 Jan 2010

Mr Green's comment raises an interesting issue. If the karma of sickness is Gulzar's, why does it not disappear with her when she allegedly leaves the body to allow BapDada to possess it?
nischaybuddi wrote:Q:
A

If the quote is taken form the Question and Answers at the top of the Murlis, those are written by human beings (BK followers) and not even spoken by the spirit entity the BKs believe is the god spirit of all religions.

It is another example of the BKWSU's false claims. Why wont they just publish all the Murlis, in their original unedited form, so all interested parties can read them?

There is a good selection of English translations in the Encyclopedia area you can instantly search through. 100s. But how 'doctored' and 'confused' have they become already by now ... and what of the other missing 20 years worth? Until they allow people to make up their own minds by serious study of the whole lot, it is just mind control, controlled by the leaders in Madhuban.

I am sorry nischaybuddi but, on that lack of accuracy, your answer fails. You know it too. I find your argument to be full of Bhakti, or attempts to use Bhakti stories ... pre-programming ... to manipulate people's minds.

And, as usual, I am not getting straight answers.

nischaybuddi

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Re: Stay on the Ship ... Please ...

Post21 Jan 2010

And, as usual, I am not getting straight answers.

As I already quoted that "if one has decided firmly in his mind not to get convinced or not to understand others point of view then no one can wake up them'

I think that the straight answer for you will be ... which will make you happy is.

OK, I ACCEPT YOU ARE TRUE AND ALL BK-ism IS JUST FAKE

Now, may I take a leave? My time is running out ... :D.
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ex-l

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Post21 Jan 2010

We are perfectly awake, nish ... what you really mean is that, "Someone who is awake is very hard to put back to sleep or delude again". In English, we call it, "Once bitten, twice shy". We are immune to the brainwash.[/b]

Of course ... all you are doing is avoiding the questions again. Sadly, I imagine that I will find you again in 2037 when you will tell me, "Oh, Baba did not mean '2036'. He really meant was '2136' or 3036. Look, here is a re-written Murlis that say so". And by that time, the Murlis will be as short as postcards.

The problem we are all having is that the logic of Murlis ... the logic of the intellect behind the Murlis ... says,

    "It is true because I say it is true" ... and,
    "It is even true when what I said is not true" ... (or "It is even true when what I said in the past is what I said was untrue.")
When anyone ask a BK to explain how those two statements can exist, they just wriggle and squiggle away, or come out with some Bhakti like, "it was a test", "stop asking questions" ... or "have more faith".

What we have present is not what "I" think, or anything to do with "me". Subjectivity is a cheap trick to play.

    It is the objective evidence. Please explain it.
If "God is Truth", your god is "the Seer of 3 aspects of time" and "the Ocean of Knowledge without limitations" ... so why does he get facts wrong?

Therefore, however powerful and wonderful the practise can be ... and I do not deny that ... he is just not the God of Truth.

starchild

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Re: Stay on the Ship ... Please ...

Post21 Jan 2010

ex-l wrote:... if the karma of sickness is Gulzar's, why does it not dissapear with her ...

Well, her body is about 80 or more years old. It would not be very considerate for the visiting spirit to do acrobats and cartwheels while using the body, she would be left with a lot of aches and pains to say the least ...

Hey Mr. Green,

What years did the walkabouts happen? Was that just on the stage ?

Hi ex-l,

I would like to comment on the treatment of VIPs.

When I lived in London there were families, I think they were Sindi, who were regularly entertained by the BKs at Global House. They would be given special treatment and private audiences with the Seniors whenever they visited. We even, one evening, catered for an engagement party for a couple who were children of these wealthy people. When there were a few surprised looks, (at that time engagements and marriages were very taboo) it was explained as encouragement that they might have a pure marriage or have BK children.

It was evident when the party arrived that these wealthy young persons had no notion of becoming BKs. In fact, they were going on to have a 'real' party later on, and the parents were having the Global House function by way of a religious blessing. I would imagine that a good donation was given as we catered from upwards of a hundred people.

This is only one example of many, some a little more sinister.

But this can easily put down to nitpicking and we know what the stock answers are ... God needs to reach the rich as well ... the VIPs can do so much service etc. etc.

But you have made a point ex-l that cannot be put down as nitpicking. The fact that these impure VIPs are the ones who get to stand up on the stage in Madhuban; to stand on front of God and get personal messages from him. There they are, thousands of people who have given their lives to the service of the Yagya, by living their pure disciplines the world is being changed to the Golden Age world, and who gets to meet God up close and personal. And remember this is the only time he comes, and this will be repeated time after time, Cycle after Cycle ...

Now you could say that the plebs are showing humility, putting others first and all the other platitudes that can be rolled out ... but this just does not or cannot make sense within the BKs own take on the Law of Karma. And remember, if you are not a VIP you must sign a form to state how long you have been following the celibacy rule, before you can stay in Madhuban ... Whatever power or shining spirituality that is there, it cannot be denied that some things that happen just do not fit in with the teachings. The bending of the rules, if measured to a lot of accepted criteria, would be considered very corrupt.

I am sure that a lot of posters here have been to Madhuban at the BapDada meetings. I would be interested to hear their experiences in the interest of exploring what they felt the spirit was when they were there. Were you bowled over? Disappointed?
Nischaybuddi wrote:... but it will unfold many questions which is irrelevant ...

When I was a practicing BK and afterwards when I have been in the company of BKs. There was constant speculation on various questions and the most bizarre notions were put forward as answers. These notions often spread among the BKs until they became accepted as part of the dogma. So, while questioning is actively discouraged in the Murlis as well as in Dadi Janki talks, they might be better to have open questioning and discussion ...
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ex-l

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Post21 Jan 2010

How can the body have "karma" if it is not the one who does? Why would "karma" BapDada carries out come back to Gulzar? It is not logical.
starchild wrote:When I lived in London there were families, I think they were Sindi, who were regularly entertained by the BKs at Global House. They would be given special treatment and private audiences with the Seniors whenever they visited. We even, one evening, catered for an engagement party for a couple who were children of these wealthy people. When there were a few surprised looks ... It was evident when the party arrived that these wealthy young persons had no notion of becoming BKs. In fact, they were going on to have a 'real' party later on ...

God needs to reach the rich as well ...

It is quite simple ... "the god of the BK (if not just Janki Kripalani), needs to reach the rich's wallet as well". Please start a new topic and list all such examples ... give people real insight into the way the BKWSU works.

As an accountant, I'd love to read what Nischaybuddi has to say about this, from the perspective of the Murlis.

I suspect that Indian BKs are are more comfortable around the financial hypocrisies of the BKWSU. It is just "business as usual" for Hindus, the financial exploitation of superstitions in which the Brahma Kumaris leadership are happy to play their part. The importance of societal status. His answer will just be based on what he thinks he will be most highly rewarded with in their system ... not questioning the high caste BKs.

We read that "Dadi Janki Kripalani" offers an extra-special karmic deal in that whatever you give her goes "directly back to Madhuban" where, seemingly, it is worth more good karma than money given to a local center. I suspect part of her power is based on her financial pulling power. In the US, we saw a similar event with Big Mohini hoovering up donations from local centers and taking them back to New York. No questions asked. No account of why or for what given.

There is no good explanation about any of this. The religion and philosophy of it all is ridiculous. I always suggest the first thing people should do to understand Brahma Kumarism is to study up a little on the Sindi merchant classes, their history and their modus operandi.
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Mr Green

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Post21 Jan 2010

Hi Starchild

I, personally, think the Meeting experience is a communal psychic connection with each other and possibly something else, and a lot of self-repeated self-hypnosis mixed with a sincere yearning.

Anyway, BapDadaDadi he/she/it walked around in Shanti Bhavan about 97, I reckon. They used to clear a pathway at the front of that colossal place, like a horseshoe shape, but only those nearest the path got what everyone wanted, to look into those eyes. Whooooooooooo ... spooky **** man. Those eyes were scary, but they were the same scary when she was un-possessed, or whatever.

peace

dreadi

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Stay on the Ship ... Please & access GOD's power and wisdom

Post21 Jan 2010

dreadi asked wrote:... nischaybuddi, to put it simply: Does this control you ascribe to G-O-D mean that he causes and is responsible for all that is happening in the drama? Did GOD control the Earthquake that has recently befallen Haiti? ...

And dreadi still awaits an answer - no problem if it never arrives. However in the meantime, with reference to the above question, we can read the following on this site attributed to a "coordinator of the Brahma Kumaris activities in the Dominican Republic and a medical doctor",
... The family of humanity is passing through some extremely challenging times, and we will be able to go through that turmoil of change by strengthening our internal spiritual potential and by accessing the power and wisdom that come from the Supreme, God ...(Brahma Kumaris' "Message for Haiti" after major earthquak)

And so I wonder if Nischaybuddi's GOD is the same being to whom Rona refers? The same GOD about whom he wrote (but imho did not satisfactorily substantiate): ...
According to Gyan, the world is perfect, everything is perfect and everyone is playing its accurate part including GOD. DRAMA is supreme. Even GOD is also in control of DRAMA. Baba himself said, that he is also in control of DRAMA...

Question: What point is there in the family of humanity "accessing the power and wisdom that come from the Supreme, God" when that self same being is (allegedly) the one who controlled - amongst other things - the earthquake in the first place?

Any Gyani ideas Nischaybuddi?
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ex-l

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Re: Stay on the Ship ... Please & access GOD's power and wisdom

Post22 Jan 2010

dreadi wrote:And so I wonder if Nischaybuddi's GOD is the same being to whom Rona refers? The same GOD about whom he wrote (but imho did not satisfactorily substantiate): ...

You ask a good question, dreadi.

In short, are there two "gods";

    • the "god spirit" of the BKWSU (likely to be the deceased Lekhraj Kirpalani, Mama and/or some other channeled beings)
    • the Universal God all the other religions in the world follow?

The big trick in the BKWSU, since 1950, has been to claim their 'god spirit' IS the "Universal God" and to divert energy channels towards it. Before 1950, the Brahma Kumaris believed in a universal "Divine Light". Not a point of light or individual soul but a universal, unlimited, omnipresent god.

The BKWSU spend a considerable amount of its time and money conning the United Nations and multi-faith forums that they are speaking about the same thing. To an uneducated eye, it is hard to discern the difference but to a BK or ex-BK, the difference is obvious.

The big question to ask is, how clear about the difference are all BKs themselves? Do they switch between the two? From this, then arises the question, are they actually receiving from BapDada, or giving to BapDada? BapDada is really not the god of all religions. So who is it and what are they up to?

These "The-World-gives-us-money-and-property-and-we-give-the-World-our-thoughts" type events leave me cold. For me, they are just make-believe and window-dressing. A facade of goodness and a manipulation of their followers to give them the feeling they are doing something for others.

I am as sure the individuals in Haiti would prefer water, food and shelter than "BK blessings" as I am sure that the Brahma Kumaris are speculating and encouraging each other that, "Destruction must be near", because a wonderful 200,000 poor people died.

I don't expect an answer from nischaybuddi ... as a BK, he cannot risk thinking and admitting that the above is at least a little percent true.

nischaybuddi

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Post22 Jan 2010

I don't expect an answer from nischaybuddi ... as a BK, he cannot risk thinking and admitting that the above is at least a little percent true.

This is a effort to provoke nischaybuddi, to come out with some opinions. See, ex-I, there are 1000s of reasons not to accept a thing and there may be only one reason to accept it. I hope you understand what i mean to say, as my English is not that good, and my vocabulary is limited so i find myself lacking in putting my opinions.

Regarding service of rich, they deserve high class hospitality, and as they are souls, so Godly knowledge is their birthright.
I am as sure the individuals in Haiti would prefer water, food and shelter than "BK blessings"

Yes, I agree ... but same thing applies to those souls who are thirsty for knowledge, peace, purity, happiness for them BKs blessings work as lifesaving drugs.
I am sure that the Brahma Kumaris are speculating and encouraging each other that, "Destruction must be near", because a wonderful 200,000 poor people died.

No, it is not so. In fact, all responsible BKs heartily feel mercy, and unite together, leaving their family, jobs, business aside to perform deep and intense Yoga to spread vibrations of peace and strength on the affected site. The subtle things are invisible but are very, very important.

P.S: When I say BKs, I mean the ones who are sincere, pure, committed to Gyan as there are so many others you can find in white dress with a badge of Lakshmi Narayan.
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ex-l

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Post22 Jan 2010

nischaybuddi wrote:Regarding service of rich, they deserve high class hospitality, and though they are souls, so Godly knowledge is their birthright.

"Deserve" ... why on earth?

In a country of such inequalities, injustice and exploitation as India, why is the "God of the Poor" sucking up to the rich, taking donations from the poor and giving them to the rich? I, honestly, do not understand that logic. Perhaps it is just something you have to do in India.

Do you believe that is it nothing to do with money they might bring back into the BKWSU (... and just simple social climbing)?

nischaybuddi

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Post22 Jan 2010

taking donations from the poor and giving them to the rich?

I've never seen such things happen. Whatever I experienced is the money collected is utilised for upgradation of local centre, printing material for seva and, of course, contribution for Madhuban in the form of blankets, bedsheets or so.

because.parmeshwar

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Re: Stay on the Ship ... Please ...

Post22 Jan 2010

Two years back, we purchased one house for the centre's purpose only. At that time we were quite unaware of what the procedure of setting up of a new centre was. We were believing (blindly?) in our centre-in-charge only ... and accepted what ever she suggested to do.

After few days we learned that one more BK Brother was interested in buying a house adjacent to ours saying that it would be better that we have two houses so that there will be no problems of space in carrying out daily activities.

Subsequently, we learned that the second house was owned in the joint names of centre-in-charge and the BK Brother. Gradually, the two houses were joined together and now they appear as one house. All activities were carried out by these two only.

I also learned that this deal was not informed to the main centre, and not even in Madhuban. Both of them are running all the centre activity and they are staying together at night also. Along with one old mataji of about 65 years of age.

I would like to have your unbiased opinion that is this type of deal is allowed. And since now we are lacking interest in this so called spiritual family, so what should we do?

Thank you
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