Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

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Misty

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Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post23 Mar 2013

Concerning Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna I have observed a strange twist. I will tell you about that one.

As I entered the BK, one of the first questions I asked was whether they where "Hare Krishnas". This was mere intuition but to me, at that time, they looked so much alike. One of the teachers denied. I answered that it nevertheless looked much like they were. The next lesson the BK teacher told me that 'Krishna' was the first prince. By then, because I had just started following BK lessons, I did not know to much about the hierarchy of the BK doctrine, so that was just a remark to me.

However, as time grew, I came to know more about their point of view concerning important personalities in their knowledge. They told me that Bhai Lekhraj Khubchand Kirpalani, by then simply introduced to me as 'Brahma', or 'Brahma Baba', was their founder. He was the one the Supreme Soul came first to. Mr. Kirpalani, to their vision, became perfect or karmateet and would not reïncarnate before the end of the world. This was confirmed three times, by two different BK teachers. They also told me that Mr. Kirpalani would become the first emperor in the Golden Age.

The Supreme Soul, or 'Shiv Baba' or 'Shiva' had three helpers, as to know the constructor, 'Brahma' or Mr. Kirpalani. Then there was 'Vishnu', or the maintainer, to them indicated as the goal to achieve, being exactly as God. To conclude there was 'Shankar'. He was indicated as the big destroyer, the destroyer of all the old, i.e. probably the present world.

Interesting was that Vishnu seemed to be very important to them. They did not say it in clear words but I could sense it because they spoke with great respect of the personality, even if it was only by a few sentences. Vishnu was supposed to be exactly like the BK God, like the supreme being itself. A copy, so to say. I asked them if Brahma, or Mr. Kirpalani wasn't exactly like God. But, to them, at that time (i.e in the 1990-1992 period, when I visited them)
Mr. Kirpalani was not. He was the soul with the highest heritage in Yoga, given to him by Shiv Baba. He was the most elevated soul. But Mr. Kirpalani was not exactly like the BK God, no exact copy. So, it became clear to me that
Mr. Kirpalani wasn't going to take the role of Vishnu as well (i.e after having been the BK founder already).

Now Krishna was not the deity form of Mr. Kirpalani, as told to me in the 1990-1992 period. Krishna was the first prince only. And, as they told me so, I got the impression that Krishna wasn't that important to them at all. Krishna would play his role but would die before the coming of the Golden Age, like the rest of humanity (this was the BK version where all of mankind, 100 per cent, would die at the end of the Confluence Age). Krishna would subsequently reïncarnate in the Golden Age as a deity.

Mr. Kirpalani, or Brahma Baba was also called 'Adi Dev', or, if I remember well, 'the first David'. But this did not meant 'David' as in Christianity, 'cause 'Dev' referred to deity. So it meant he was considered to be the first deity, or the first perfect man, or 'Adam'. I asked if there was any reference to the David of Christianity and indeed there was, but they stressed that this role playing happened at a much later period in The Cycle, the Copper Age. So Mr. Kirpalani played the roll of the Christian 'David' as well.

Vishnu however was important because he would receive all of God's love, or the most amount of love.The BKs were waiting for Vishnu to incarnate, to give their religion a new impulse. According to them, the BK movement would grow enormously afterwards. Shankar was not spoken of so much. No more than just a few remarks were made about this personality. They said that with the incarnation of Shankar all present things would end. He would conclude The Cycle. His incarnation, as well as that of Krishna, was waited for, but Krishna's forthcoming was of major importance.

Now that I have come across this site and read a bit more, I notice a strange twist. In the starting period, Mr. Kirpalani was considered as being Brahma and would reïncarnate as Krishna, either in the present BK Confluence Age or in the Golden Age. That is not clear to me.

In the time when I visited the BK though, the 1990-1992 period, I was told that Mr. Kirpalani would not reïncarnate before the start of the Golden Age and Krishna was just the first prince.

However, from this site I learned that the BK has readapted the old doctrine again, or they just told me, at the time, a different tale, but Mr. Kirpalani is being rehabilitated as the future, forthcoming Krishna and will reïncarnate before the end of the confluence time, leading to the start of the Golden Age.

So, I wonder why the BK has altered its own doctrine several times. Did God change his mind ? Did the universe blink at Mr. Kirpalani ? Did BapDada had a hard time dealing with reality ? Or maybe it is because the present, leading figures of the BK considered it better to let Mr. Kirpalani play the role of the overall, ruling Krishna, also. Maybe they considered it better, after all, for his image, for his spiritual carreer so to say. But I find it very strange indeed, don't you think so ?

I can no more say than that the whole story seems fabricated to me. How can they be so vague about a principal figure in their religion ?

That's why I wonder what this issue feels like, for the hardy BKs, once they start churning this fact. is not this BK-ism twisting at its top ?
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ex-l

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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post24 Mar 2013

You write about events nearly 20 years ago, what is your interest in the BKWSU now?

I cannot comment on what you were told back then but, from an accurate BK point of view, I think you've got a number of issues confused in your own mind ... which really don't matter if you're not going to follow them.

I've never heard of any mention of the Biblical David in the BKWSU ever. Not in the Murli teachings, the teacher training manuals nor any classes. You might be mistaking it for "Devi" meaning deity which to the BKWSU means the perfect human beings who live in the Gold and Silver Ages of their heaven on earth period (... and not "Davy" either). Yes, they believe the Biblical David will reincarnate again in about 2500 odd years times. They believe that time repeats the same, every 5,000 years but Lekhraj Kirpalani would not become David. It is said all his re-incarnations happen in India.

Yes, they teach Lekhraj Kirpalani was "Adi Dev" or the first devi, as in the first deity. Actually, it's a name or title often given to Krishna, meaning the "The lord of the lords", and taken from Hinduism as all BK titles are. That's just about the length of their religion. If the name or title or concept exists, it is about them of their leader. They are very egotistical.

You were given a class on "the Trimurti", i.e. Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar, but it seems that it was not explained to you very well. Where did you take your course?

Again, in Hinduism, the Trimurti is a very important principle and the first thing the BKs do is, again, claim that Hinduism is all wrong and the Trimurti is about them and their leader which is why in their images you see Lekhraj Kirpalani's face on all three figures ... but these are not separate individuals or Gods they are more like states of consciousness.

Lekhraj Kirpalani become Brahma the Creator during this Age, then Vishnu the Sustainer of The Cycle or the perfect being, then Shankar the Destroyer which is seen as the most powerful form of yogi 'destroying body-consciousness', the BKs' root of all evil, a purification which has effect on the outer world bring about the destruction of the old impure world too.

Yes, according to the BKs teachings, Lekhraj Kirpalani reincarnates on earth as Krishna but, no, he would have to incarnate in this present world (there are several Murli quotes to sustain this point). One of our criticisms is that according to the teachings that were, he would have had to incarnated by now in order to be ready for the start of the Golden Age which is believed to be his coronation as Narayan, the first Emperor of the Golden Age.

From a Hindu's point of view, all this is crazy and mixed up. From the BKs' point of view, it is Hinduism that is crazy and all mixed up and Hinduism is meant to be an impure copy of their religion. Many of these points are efforts to understand visions Lekhraj Kirpalani and others had during the earlier period of the religion, e.g. he allegedly had a vision of himself as Vishnu, they had visions of Krishna and wondered what they all meant.

Yes, it is all a mess. Yes, they have chopped and changed it and re-written their history and philosophy considerably, e.g. in the beginning there was no mention Shiva. Yes, arguably, there is a lot of fabrication going on; a patchwork stolen from Hinduism, which Lekhraj Kirpalani was not well versed in, and other religions all of which has been pasted on top of Lekhraj Kirpalani out of their adoration for him, e.g. until some point after 1950, they thought he was God. Yes, they have made predictions which have since failed. Yes, they have hidden or destroyed documents that expose all their chops and changes and failures ... and so on ... but, for most BKs, they never actually get to hear about all this. They are so mentally conditioned and controlled by the leadership, kept so busy doing meditation service and encouraged not to think or question ... especially about the leadership.

If you can save other people from being dragged into the BKWSU and exploited, it would be a good thing. If you can encourage BKs to think and question, that would also be a good thing.

Thank you.
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Misty

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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post25 Mar 2013

Thank you ex-l, for your comment. Indeed I was given a class on Trimurti. But the concept then was different from what you describe. Maybe it wasn't well explained by the Sister. Personally, remembering parts of what was said then, I think the concept was changed in favour of Mr. Kirpalani, to increase his importance. But that's my guess.

I was not allowed to read Murli's myself and we were not given photocopies of Murlis, so all that I got was my own notes, which I threw away when I left. So I can not show you the original text anymore.

The issue of David, I remember because I was so surprised that a personality from Christian belief was introduced in their religion. As I had just banished that religion for myself, before entering the BK, I felt at unease. I remember that well, just like my questioning of the given fact. The answer the Sister gave is so typically Bk-ian I could not have made that up myself. One thing I remeber is that the Sister herself was sometimes puzzled by things that did not fit in their concept of The Cycle, or at a specified era. I don't know if that was the case with the David issue as well.

Maybe it had been better it I had not mentioned that in this posting. However, Krishna, to them, at that time, wasn't the deity form of Mr. Kirpalani.This was confirmed several times, as I have described. That is what this post, to me, is basically about.
ex-l wrote:Where did you take your course?

Before joining this forum I asked myself what to answer if this question would arise and felt confidence in remaining strictly anonymous. I do not wish to offend you in any way, but hope you will respect that as it helps me to speak freely.
They are so mentally conditioned and controlled by the leadership, kept so busy doing meditation service and encouraged not to think or question ... especially about the leadership.

This makes me very sad. The Sister, at that time running the centre, meditated 8 hours a day !! and had a job as well. Maybe even full time.
You write about events nearly 20 years ago, what is your interest in the BKWSU now ?

I have no connection with the BKWSU anymore, in no possible way, since I left them. I do not follow their lifestyle anymore. I am here to work through the last few bits (I hope) of remnant doctrine that are still residing within me. And to help other people loosen their bondings with this cult and leave them. To make a contribution to that process, however small it may be, if possible.
If you can save other people from being dragged into the BKWSU and exploited, it would be a good thing. If you can encourage BKs to think and question, that would also be a good thing.

That is exactly my point. Thanks.
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ex-l

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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post25 Mar 2013

Here's a link to the old 'official' BK teaching aim poster of The Trimurti.

Strange about the King David stuff, I have never heard of and never read of it in any BKWSU related materials. He is not even that an important character religiously and certainly not a founder of any religion who are just about the only characters ever mentioned.

I am sorry to ask where you studied but it must have been a minor center as the teacher was either not very well trained, or making things up. Normally, all theories have to relate back to the Murlis. I doubt Lekhraj Kirpalani would have even heard of David.
Misty wrote:However, Krishna, to them, at that time, wasn't the deity form of Mr. Kirpalani. This was confirmed several times, as I have described. That is what this post, to me, is basically about.

What do you understand by the word "deity"? Normally, in the BKWSU, it just means the perfect human beings living in the Golden and Silver Ages. Krishna was (allegedly) Lekhraj Kirpalani's first birth.

Much of BKism is just borrowing terms from and bending Hinduism in order for it fit the story of Lekhraj Kirpalani and the BKs. At one stage they were confused because Lekhraj Kirpalani was alive in this word and yet their psychic mediums would meet a different "angelic" copy of him when they went into trance. For a while, perhaps still, there was this concept of "subtle deities" Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar, that is to say purely spiritual beings existing in a separate spiritual world, but it was, perhaps, one of the most unclear and obscure lessons.

Mostly, the lesson was just all about faith. Hindus have faith in the Trimurti so the BKs stuck Lekhraj Kirpalani's face on top of Brahma, Vishna and Shiva (calling his Shankar) and demanded their followers had faith, even signing letters of faith in him instead.
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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post02 Apr 2013

ex-l wrote:Strange about the King David stuff, I have never heard of and never read of it in any BKWSU related materials. He is not even that an important character religiously and certainly not a founder of any religion who are just about the only characters ever mentioned

Answer :

Yes, but the story gets even stranger. At first the BK teacher was trying to sell the David story to me, convincing me it happened in the Copper Age. But, because it seemed so strange, even to me, although being almost religiously illiterate at the time, I made a note about it. I checked the information at home and came back to it the next lesson. Then the teacher said she did not wanted to speak about it anymore.
... but Lekhraj Kirpalani would not become David. It is said all his re-incarnations happen in India.

Answer :

Because it seemed so weird to me, about half a year later I asked another teacher. She gave the same answer as yours. She was also very surprised the former answer had been given to me.
I am sorry to ask where you studied but it must have been a minor center as the teacher was either not very well trained, or making things up. Normally, all theories have to relate back to the Murlis

Answer :

No offence. The teacher I speak about made many allegations and, mostly, did not give any evidence of it by the Murlis. I will tell now about the startling Krishna-versions of the truth, she kept on changing. Was that to confuse us ? Or was she just struggeling with murli-texts ? I don't know. But it hampered me.

The different versions of Krishna (presented to me while being at the BK, according to the BK teacher, at the centre where I came).

1st
    Krishna is the first prince and incarnates in the confluence time. He is not the reïncarnation of Mr. Kirpalani. He will die with the whole of humanity (100 pro cent) at the end of the Confluence Age. He will not live in the Golden Age.
2nd
    Krishna (not being the reïncarnation of Mr. Kirpalani) is the first prince. He will die before the end of the confluence time and will return in the Golden Age playing the role of Krishna again, then to live his full life through.

    I objected that it was such a waste to send a deity (as she stated) to an impure world. The teacher said it was no waste but a sacrife and karmic predestined
3rd
    already the next lesson she corrected herself) -- Kirisha (not being the reïncarnation of Mr. Kirpalani) is the first prince. He will play a different role in the Golden Age. Mr. Kirpalni will play the true role of Krishna in the Golden Age.
4 th
    Mr. Kirpalani will reïncarnate as Krishna and will incarnate in the confluence time, die because of the destruction, and will incarnate again in the Golden Age (as Krishna).
5 th
    Krishna will incarnate before the Golden Age and survive the nuclear holocaust, live through destruction and inherit the Golden Age. (This version was described in the post "A failed prediction and alternative future path" It is not clear to me if Mr. Kirpalani will play the role of Krishna in this version because I wasn't there when it was clearified/ explained. I presume though, that in this version Mr. Kirpalani will take the role of Krishna. In fact it is, I think, very much simular to the official version presented on this website.
All these versions passed in a period of time of about 18 months. At a certain moment I was expecting a new version of the Krishna-saga rolling of the assembly-line of her or Shiv Baba's mind each time I went to class. I compared it with people wandering through the desert of BK-ism and being so exhausted that they start seeing the fata morgana of Krishna everywhere.
What do you understand by the word "deity"? Normally, in the BKWSU, it just means the perfect human beings living in the Golden and Silver Ages.

Answer :

My definition is identical to yours but they blurred the definition later on by stating that the deity-form reincarnation of Mr. Kirpalani would already incarnate in the confluence time.
Lekhraj Kirpalani becomes Brahma the Creator during this Age, then Vishnu the Sustainer of The Cycle or the perfect being, then Shankar the Destroyer which is seen as the most powerful form of yogi, 'destroying body-consciousness', the BKs' root of all evil, a purification which has effect on the outer world bring about the destruction of the old impure world too.
Many of these points are efforts to understand visions Lekhraj Kirpalani and others had during the earlier period of the religion, e.g. he allegedly had a vision of himself as Vishnu, they had visions of Krishna and wondered what they all meant.
Yes, they have hidden or destroyed documents that expose all their chops and changes and failures

Answer :

I have to tell a probably interesting story about this all. The Trimurti concept was taught to me by a Murli. It said that Shiv Baba has 3 aspects : constructing, sustaining and destroying (the old). Then it said that Brahma could take all 3 forms (of consciousness) and that this was why Brahma was sometimes depicted with 3 heads.

(I remember this vaguely because I did not understand this at the time and took little notice of it). However the Murli also said that Shiv Baba has 3 distinct helpers, as to know Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar, playing their distinct roles.

Then the teacher said that Mr. Kirpalani was Vishnu, and a male BK, that on rare occasions was conducting," echoed. But I asked, "is not Brahma the builder/constructor?", as this concept was first taught to me. The teacher denied and said that Mr. Kirpalani was the sustainer. I objected, saying this was not the concept first told to me. I asked her who was the constructor, if it wasn't Mr. Kirpalani. Another BK-student supported me by saying that Mr. Kripalani was indeed the constructor. And yet another student joined. More and more discussion arose.

The teacher was then confused, saying that Mr. Kirpalani could play all 3 roles. I questioned if Mr. Kirpalani would also take the three roles and referred to the Murli that it were distinct roles by distinct personalities, as named in the Murli. The same poster, as you have posted in this thread, was presented. I saw it only briefly. But again, I noted, overseeing it swiftly, that, as Shiv Baba has 3 distinct helpers, nowhere on the poster, it is mentioned that Mr. Kirpalani played all 3 roles.

I told this to the teacher, asked why Mr. Kirpalani's face was pasted on all 3 images. She referred to the states of conscienceness. I referred to the distinct different personalities which were Baba's murli-words and that I did not agree on the grimace on the images. It looked phoney. I said she was twisting Baba's words.

The teacher wanted to start meditating but I said I wouldn't go with her, 'cause it did not seemed right to me. More students objected. It was clearly that we couldn't go on. Then something strange happened. The teacher sort of succumbed. Reluctantly she told about a student once studying old Murlis that had similar objections, as there seemed to be a controversy. But the old Murlis were lost and could not be studied anymore.

A woman that was raised with traditional Hinduïsm started explaining about the 3 different Hindu gods. Surpisingly it seemed more in coherence with the tone of the Murli. The teacher then told that Vishnu and Shankar, would incarnate simultaneously. I asked if it was a twin, but she denied. It were, according to this other concept, two personalities, being born close to each other, in the same country. Two distinct persons, no states of conscienceness of Mr. Kirpalani.

I answered that this philosophy, of obviously 3 personalities, was more in coherence with the old Hindu tradition and that I could agree on meditation on this respect. The teacher pointed at the poster and the grimaces of Mr. Kirpalani. I told her, to me it looked like a fraud. She then put it away and we went into meditation.

I have found an article with a critical respect to Mr. Kirpalani's role playing. It can be read it here : http://ShivBaba.hubpages.com/hub/kranti It is called : "The Brahma Kumaris have killed God." Interesting are the findings of Mr. Virendra. That is why I have mentioned it.
Many of these points are efforts to understand visions Lekhraj Kirpalani and others had during the earlier period of the religion, e.g. he allegedly had a vision of himself as Vishnu, they had visions of Krishna and wondered what they all meant.

Answer :

Did Mr. Kirpalani had a vision of Shankar as well ? Otherwise to me it doesn't even seem just that the BKs at the time pasted his grimace on Shankar. The teacher that explained me the Trimurti-concept said that Mr. Kirpalani could not and would not become Shankar in flesh.

The healer, that helped me 3 years after I left the BK, told me that a vision can be compared with a telescreen. You push the button and an image blurs out. But it can be seen as "just an image" in the same way you pay no reference to it when you just start looking at your televisionset. She also told me, concerning my visions, that they can be just given to you to suit you. I have heared that in the Copper (and probably Iron age as well). Baba does the same. Then, just to glue you to him or not forget about the suppreme principle... Did other attendants at the time have the same vision of Mr. Kirpalani as being Vishnu. Or was it just in his mind ?
Hindus have faith in the Trimurti so the BKs stuck Lekhraj Kirpalani's face on top of Brahma, Vishna and Shiva

Answer :

I wonder what traditional Hindus would think of this poster if they saw it ; I guess it would be an insult to them seeing their beloved deities so deformed. I would not be surprised if they considered it blasphemic. To me, it looks rather clownish.

I would like to add a point of interest. I talked about Mr.Kirpalani with the healer that helped me about 3 years after I left the cult. I told her about Brahma. She said : "Brahma was a priest that meditated in the mountains in India". I told her that Mount Abu is also in, I believe, a mountainous area. She replied that she was talking about the Himalaya ; that this person was very unknown to the general public. Then she said, "The person I am talking about lived alone, not with all these women around him. He lived a live of sobriety."

I replied that Mr. Kirpalani, I think, was also living a sober life, at least towards the end of his life. She then replied by saying it was a fraud and that these people (the BK) took advantage of the fact that so little in the West is known about hinduism. And that this man (Mr. Kirpalani) was not the legendary Brahma. That Mr. Kirpalani was just taking advantage of the well known ancient religious renown of the Hindu god Brahma.

Unfortunately she gave no information about this enigmatic priest and I have never actively searched for, neither found any information about this other personality she claimed being Brahma. So I just left it for what it was. But I found it to be significant.
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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post02 Apr 2013

Normally the three headed deity is referred to as "Trikaldarshi", "the Knower of the Three Aspects of Time" (past, present and future), something else they have stolen from Hinduism ... so there is another confusion in that.

I can see little threads of congruent thoughts which have been confused but mostly it seems that the so called teacher is confused to the point of delusion, making things up, and confusing others.

Look, can you please just tell us which center and which teacher this is because the BKWSU HQ should be told and they should be shut down.

BKism is mad enough without someone obviously not knowing what they are talking about being left to meddle about with other people's minds but if you have any questions left about it, I am happy to answer them as best as possible.

As for Hinduism ... anything and everything can be true. They just make stories up as they go along, and if you go to the next village, they tell a different story with the same characters. I am sorry but it's not for me to unpick that religion. I suppose if you want to try and any make sense of it you might read Fritjof Capra or Joseph Campbell etc, but it's not my cup of tea.

Hasn't all that stuff lost all relevance in this day and age? is not it all a bit 1960s?

The BKs now hide most of their "Knowledge" from Hindus, Christians, New Agers alike. It used to make the Hindus very upset, that and being called ignorant, evil, devilish, unself-realised and all the other insults the BKs used to throw at them.

When you think about it, they are extremely insolent and unbelievably arrogant. If you put Lekhraj Kirpalani's claims into Christian terms, it would be the same as claiming to be Jesus Christ, Yahweh, and the Holy Ghost, and having been Adam, Moses and Emperor Constantine.

Oh, and they claim to be the source of all religion, Hinduism included. All other religions are merely a partial copy of BKism and that Lekhraj Kirpalani causes the Fall of Humanity by being the first man ever to lust after a woman. Fact!
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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post03 Apr 2013

Misty,

I agree with ex-l. That teacher does not understand the Gyan. In fact, I'd say he/she sounds irrational and probably a little mentally unhinged (or possibly merely ignorant).

But then again, ex-l, it does seem that the Gyan, as it is being so frequently revised, is now more likely to be interpreted in more varied ways the more distant one is from the centre of the empire (albeit this is a more extreme "interpretation"!).

BTW, a 3-dimensional depiction ( a statue) of Brahma will show him with 4 heads (the three heads only are because on a 2D image, e.g. a bas relief or painting, you cannot see the one behind the front head).

Rather than "creation, ""Brahma" is more literally the god of expansion (brah) of mind (ma) - in all directions, the conceptual duality of "I versus not I" "left v right", "Here v there" "North v south.

It is the Hindu equivalent of Zeus/ Dias / Deus-Pita/Jupiter in the greco-roman pantheon.

Think of how physicists like Capra will use the analogy of Brahma with the "big bang" cosmology. The "bra-" prefix moves into our language as "Προ-" "pro-" as in "fore" or "forward"

"Brahma" mythically bows to the Buddha because the Buddha has "seen through" the acts and consequences of "becoming" and understands how to live in a world of becoming/creation, sustaining and destruction without the dukkha (stresses and strains) that accompanies constant "becoming".

I think Lekhraj's view of the Trimurti did contain some profound insights (early Murlis did encourage students to become themselves the embodiment of the Trimurti consciousness, and this is in more mystical - tantric hinduism, but modern BKism can neither handle metaphor well and its expunged, nor more than one person's apotheosis - it threatens hierarchy).

However, in Buddhist terms, Brahma (and indeed, Lekhraj) are still caught in samsara.
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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post07 Apr 2013

Thanks Pink Panther and ex-l for your replies. As I was writing down parts of the scenes I went through, I realised again what a mess it sometimes was, and how we were all struggling with facts that were contradictory and not supported by Murli's.

A last example -- At the time I asked why, at first, Krishna was not going to live in the Golden Age and later on, as she said, he would. The teacher gave the answer that at first Krishna had not reached the BK but at a later instance joined them. Because he had rejoined them, he would live in the Golden Age. I said that it was a good thing but the teacher had double feelings. She said it wasn't sure what Krishna would do while being with them and which role he would take. The next lesson when she came back, briefly, to the Krishna story I said that it was a great asset for the organisation. She then replied rather irritated that the BKs were not waiting for Krishna but for Mr. Kirpalani's return.

Anyway, the tendency is clear to me.
ex-l wrote:Look, can you please just tell us which center and which teacher this is because the BKWSU HQ should be told and they should be shut down.

This is not so big a step to take for me. In 1999 I phoned the headquarters of the police in the capital of my country to report abuse by the BK, explained their techniques briefly, but was unable to file a complaint because there was no physical evidence in my case. It was suspended. (My aim then was to have the centre being shut down, but for other reasons as in this thread).

But I have to remind you, though, that this situation happened 20 years ago. I don't know about the present situation at that center.

I can agree on your request for information on the term that you do not use this information to trace me. The reason is that I prefer to live my life in tranquility. And that I have had a though fight to make something out of my life. I dislike it being disturbed unnecessary. I can give you the information in a private message though, if you let me know via his forum. I will send the information in a private message to you then.
... but if you have any questions left about it, I am happy to answer them as best as possible.

Thank you ex-l for your friendliness. I have to think about that. Right now I am not very interested in the teachings of the Murlis but more interested in what has happened and is going on within the BK, how it affected me and others and what we can do to stop the atrocities.
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ex-l

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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post07 Apr 2013

Interesting. The so-called center in charge was apparently confused and ill informed. Pink Panther might have more to say on this matter but I think there were problems in Australia with it being such a "young" part of the BK movement and I think at certain times they had a hard time keep centers properly coordinated. It seems like, perhaps, they were just keen to have anyone do the job despite whether they have the skills and education and without there being any proper procedural manual at that time.

As you say, 20 years is a long time ago. The individual, and many of the BKs involved, could well have left but I perfectly understand why you feel a need and want to unpick some of the messes your experience left behind. My own BK experience was more than 20 years ago and yet until I found these forums I was still floored by some of the memories and regrets and, of course, have been held the negative life-wasting experience of being a BK back then.

In our day, Destruction was to be in around 1986. They then changed that to 1986 to 1996 because it did not look like happening, life was becoming too good. It was the 80s and economy was booming etc.

Now, I hear, they have downgraded Destruction to Transformation and are already downgrading 2036, which was their absolute End of the 'Old World, Beginning of the New World' date. You'll meet endless arrogant and 'full of it' new BKs who know nothing of the past and are locked into the same kind of superiority complex talking about general Transformation.

What bothers me is the ethics of building a multi-million dollar industry out of people giving their lives away due to the End of the World coming in two to three years, and then to pull the rug on all that when it does not happen.

However, for you there seem to have been far more personal abuses, this sexual-emotional stuff and I am interested to hear more of this Marc character as he seems to have gone on to make a handsome business, and a handsome partner, out of the BKs.

That in our day was absolutely forbidden and, again, I am concerned by the ethics of the senior BKs allowing it.
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Misty

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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post14 Apr 2013

Thank you ex-l for your reply.

Reading through ex-l's last post, I noticed that the BK not only change their predictions about Destruction in the cause of time (as in the case of ex-l: 1986, 1996 etc) but also that different versions of the BK Destruction-paradigm can exist at different places simultaneously (in my case: 2010-2012 versus ex-l's: 1986, 1996) In my case, there was also a warping of the Krishna-doctrine several times to make it fit, many verbal alterations within a very short period, maybe due to an ill-informed teacher.
Pink Panther wrote:it does seem that the Gyan, as it is being so frequently revised, is now more likely to be interpreted in more varied ways the more distant one is from the centre of the empire (albeit this is a more extreme "interpretation"!).

I am inclined to think that the management is either unaware, incompetence or does not seem to care about what is happening at center-level stage as long as the current flows towards Mt. Abu and the worshipping of BapDada. In the time I was with them, I presumed bad (top) management already but it doesn't seem to have changed, maybe even worsened, at least on a greedy financial level, according to ex-l's remark about the multi million dollar industry
ex-l wrote:until I found these forums I was still floored by some of the memories and regrets and, of course, have been held the negative life-wasting experience of being a BK back then.

I am sorry to hear of that ex-l, and for what is happening to many people up till today. The one thing that I have read on this site, and I believe it is true, is that when you have definitively left the BK, you're out for a lifetime.

Detoxification starts taking place then. At least in my case it worked that way

To me it, seems that most people that have definitively left the BK and look back in honesty, notice that they have left something behind there, whether it be their affluency, parts of their lives they spent indoctrinated or they supported the BKWSO spiritually-energetically and sometimes. Unfortunately, it even comes to a combination of one or more of these items ...

What strikes me is that all of this has been going on for decades and there seems to be no cease of it and the BKWSO, up till today, seems to get away with all of that.
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ex-l

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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post14 Apr 2013

Misty wrote:To me it, seems that most people that have definitively left the BK and look back in honesty, notice that they have left something behind there ... their affluency

Yes, and I hope they leave their effluency there too!

For me, I spent years trapped by a "what if" mentality, as in, "Yes, but what if it is sort of true and Destruction is going to happen?" until the dates they gave for Destruction then (1986 to 1996) had passed. I don't think I lived fully and invested myself in my life sensibly and professionally until they were clear and over. I think I over-reacted irrationally to world events, e.g. the Gulf War, as in "What if ... this is WWIII". And here we are in 2013.

Of course, the individuals who left in 1976 went through the same thing and many of the individuals who put their lives on hold and supported the Om Mandli went through it for WWII/1950 and left too.

The way the Brahma Kumaris portray us is that 'we are the weak ones with no faith'. We are not, we had to strength to question, our eyes were own to their corruption, manipulation and guile. The one who stay are either gullible victims or habitual abusers like Dadi Janki who, having seen it all before, is living off them.

In your case, you were obviously put into the hands of someone who was deeply confused and inexperience ... and yet given influence over people's lives.

Can I ask you, was she a young Indian woman, or white? I've heard the BKs have the habit of 'parachuting' in younger Indian to take over centers to protect their 'brand identity'. Someone also quoted BK Charlie Hogg of Australia saying how it is difficult for them to get "souls of quality" these days. How's the over health of BK centers in your region? Numbers up, numbers down?
What strikes me is that all of this has been going on for decades and there seems to be no cease of it and the BKWSO, up till today, seems to get away with all of that.

Yes, I would say *that* is the BK Destruction-paradigm, not what they are saying yesterday or today ... the paradigm is that it will always change 'just enough to keep people hooked, feeding and housing them'.

The apologists say, "the Brahma Kumaris live very humble lives and are not personally rich" ... well, firstly, we don't know their personal finances and quite a bit of cash-cash flows in their direction; secondly, there is a big difference in India between being fed and housed for free every day and flying around the world to be looked after everywhere you go ... and having no income and no means of support by way of a business or trade. I'd say the BKs leaders are very comfortable indeed.

They cannot afford ethics because if they did most would drop to the very bottom of a very poor society.

From you perspective now, Misty, does anything happen or go on at a spiritual or psychic level to BKs? What do your teachers/guides say of them?

Enlightened, asked a similar question of dissociative experiences just recently.
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Misty

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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post21 Apr 2013

ex-l wrote : "In your case, you were obviously put into the hands of someone who was deeply confused and inexperience ... and yet given influence over people's lives."


As I entered the BK, I asked the teacher how many years of experience she had. She said she started BK meditation 12 years ago. She must have started meditating early in life (about 18-20 years old). But confused ? In a way, certainly. Although to me she seemed more like a harsh woman, sarcastic and with a sinister understream. Also it seemed as if she had little joy in her life and she did not like to much her task altough she was punctual and studious.


ex-l wrote : "Can I ask you, was she a young Indian woman, or white? I've heard the BKs have the habit of 'parachuting' in younger Indian to take over centers to protect their 'brand identity' "


The woman I am talking about and who was in charge of the center was white, european, aged 30-32, educated, teacher at a school in gymnastics, which, at my country means she must at least have had high school as well as a professional training. At that time, in my country there was no talking about indians taking over centers whatsoever, anyway.

ex-l wrote : "How's the over health of BK centers in your region? Numbers up, numbers down? "


At the time I was with the BK there were only centers in 4 cities and about 120-150 students roughly. Right now the number of centers have gone up considerably to 10-12 in major cities and number of students have gone slightly up to about 200 daily. So it seems as if they are spreading more centers in order to reach more people, but that did not result in much more adherents. People have left the cult also, in the course of time, as anywhere.

In the last post Misty wrote :
" What strikes me is that all of this has been going on for decades and there seems to be no cease of it and the BKWSO, up till today, seems to get away with all of that."

And ex-l responded : " Yes, I would say *that* is the BK Destruction-paradigm ..."


What I mean to say is a bit different. Only in the beginning --The Om Mandli time, there was public anger, picket-lines, lawsuits. The Om Mandli escaped all that by running away temporarily to what is now called Pakistan. But tactics and means and methods have not been changed winthin the BK. More numbers of people get harmed since then, not speaking of friends, relatives, family members. But apart from this, and a few other critical sites there seems to be no critics upon the BKWSO. it is only banned in a few countries : Greece, France and Russia.

That is what I mean by getting away with it all.
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Re: Mr. Kirpalani and Krishna, a strange twist

Post25 Apr 2013

Re : Mr Kirpalani and Krishna

In the last post I wrote about the banning of the BK in certain countries. This is not a fact. "Looked critical upon" is probably a better description.

From Wikipedia comes the following description :

"The Brahma Kumaris were declared an "enemy of the state" by the government of Greece in 1993 and classified as dangerous by the government of France in 1996. The Brahma Kumaris were listed as a "cult movement" in the 1995 French government report on "Cults in France"

The Brahma Kumaris have featured in the 'Wissen schützt' reports of Austria (edited by then Austrian Minister for Family Affairs Mr. Martin Bartenstein), Russia (International Conference "Totalitarian Cults – Threat of Twenty-First Century", Nizhny Novgorod, 2001) and in a MIVILUDES report submitted to the French National Assembly as a "sectes dangereuses" (harmful cult) and "groupe d'enfermement" (group of confinement)."


This topic is dealed with in more detail by the post that Pink Panther started.
    What is the status of the BKWSU in different countries"


ex-l wrote : "From you perspective now, Misty, does anything happen or go on at a spiritual or psychic level to BKs? What do your teachers/guides say of them? "



Thank you ex-l for the advice you have given on consulting a professional healer. Although I have only recently started to see a professional healer and we agreed on a few sessions, so far it has already given me a few good things. I will tell more about this in the thread
    "The dawning of the truth"
if I have continued further along the way.

Thanks for all the reactions and subsequent insights this post has give me.

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