Please help me save my family member

You can start worrying more if and when it affects her waking consciousness, if she starts thinking less pragmatically and more irrationally in terms of sprits and ghosts and supernatural forces, if she becomes less assertive and forthright, more defensive and insecure. that would be a sign of a mental shift.

Could you please put this more simply? The crux is still not clear to me from this.

A strange thing ... What relevance does it have with BK tricks? What could be their motive behind this?

Is it harmful to family members living in there?

Whereas I accept Pink Panther's rational and deductive answer, I would also like to add that on this forum we have had similar reports from ex-BK and non-BK partners/family of "presences" in their homes (in English presences can be a vague, non-specific terms for ghosts or spiritual beings, or what we think to be ghosts or spiritual beings). Generally in the form of a dark cloudy form.

The BKs do also talk of such things but not in their "official" material and have or do carry out what we would call exorcisms. The idea of the reality of ghosts and spirit possession goes right back to the beginning of their religion. I tend to talk in terms taken from their mental framework.

From a BK point of view, such spiritual presences could be anything from their god spirit "BapDada" or the spirit body of one their leaders showing up to check on the BK follower (yes, they actually believe this), to an evil spirit coming to either test the follower or "gain benefit" from the follower. Again the idea of gaining "benefits" is a BK terms which could mean learning their teachings, to picking up on their energy. Or be exactly as she says, just a ghost. BKism does not directly teach about ghosts but allows for them in their overall framework.

One could say it is all a highly irrational and impractical distraction as the amount of influence such entities or ideas have is extremely minimal unless, of course, the power of the idea is being used to manipulate others, e.g. 'scare tactics' scaring people into BKism as a solution. However, the focusing onto such impractical distractions rather than practical matters is quite BK. As Pink Panther writes, their world world is full of such unseeable and unprovable things.

Having said all that, it is more likely that it has nothing to do with BKism at all and, from a BK point of view, it has no importance either. The BKs' response to it would be the same as their response to most things ... "don't think about it and do more meditation". It's about the only response they have. 99.9 times out of 100, such ideas are purely the "Maya" (illusions) of the BK involved.

The far great spiritual danger is the influence of the BK Sisters and the collective BKWSU who are filling her mind with such ideas and empowering them rather than allowing her to focusing on her own practical life, family and community. This "great ghost" is sweeping through your home and family seek to possess your family member, and any other family member it can, to take control of them entirely, to feed off her wealthy and free labour, and use them for its own gain and ambitions.

It is it which you need to rid your house of.

Don't be distracted by any little, ordinary or domestic ghosts. Accept them as you would a friendly gecko. The power of the spirit of BKWSU is far greater, far more devious and far more persistent.

My understanding of what Pink Panther is saying is that ... the ghost is just a symbol in her dreams, or part of her own mind, and what matters is what it symbolizes or "says" of that part of her, e.g. is it angry ... is it happy ... it is cold and sad ... and so on.

One psycho-analytic point of view would be to see it as a part of *her* which has been split off and ask, "which part of her does it symbolise?" ... "why has it split off?" ... and then consider how to re-combine it.

This could also fit into the experience of the BK as to become a BK means to 'split off' many normal parts of oneself, e.g. the desire for love from other human beings, one's angry or upset, one's normal interests in life such as sports and games or feminine things, one's childhood dreams.

In such a case, which I would accept if far more likely than an actual "ghost", the ghost is symbolic of a part of her personality.

Apologies for the long answer but does that help?

In short, "don't worry about, worry about the human BKs working on your family member's mind and pulling on her strings to divide her from your family and capture her".

Thanks ex-I. The long answer does really help here, but one thing still haunts me. Will such presence harm the family members in any way? Be it mentally or physically. Do we need to be cautious of anything and if yes, then what precautions can we take?

I agree with ex-l's multi-faceted look at the situation. Circumspection should be your watchword.

Dear Inventor - should you get worried about what other people dream about?

If she dreamt there was a giraffe looking through her window would you worry about the giraffe?

My point was that it was a dream. It would be different if she saw ghosts when she was awake. Even then, there is much to be tested before any conclusion could be reached.

Was it due to tiredness? People see things when they are anxious, stressed, preoccupied, have interrupted sleep patterns.

A projection of beliefs? This is what I was getting at - if whilst awake she sees ghosts (and no one else does) then you'd be concerned for her mental state, not necessarily "mentally ill" but that she is now affected a lot, to the point of really becoming a different person, by her new beliefs.

Only if others also see ghosts should it become a concern.

And then, if others see it, as to "precautions and worry" - well, a ghost (if it exists) is not material and cannot do anything physically. it is said that ghosts are only around because people hang on to them. Most tend to fade away.

(Footnote: I have "seen things' in my lifetime, but never anything I'd definitely say is an actual ghost. I have been in rooms where people were seeing and conversing with what they called ghosts or spirits, but I saw or heard nothing except them and their reactions. I do not deny the subjective reality of such experiences, having had interesting ones myself, and accepting their point of view is important. But it is a loss of perspective to jump in yourself by adopting that POV yourself, like jumping in to save an addict by taking drugs with them.

is not that loss of perspective the whole problem with the BK paradigms and teachings?)

Dear Panther,

I understand your POV and totally adhere to it. It's just that such things are happening with us for the first time ever, thus we (family members) are bit scared at what may happen further.

I am very grateful to you all who make this forum a one stop shop for educating people like me against BKism and their unethical practices. You're doing great job. I look forward to the day when the followers of this forum outnumber the population of BKs and it becomes a revolution against BKism.

It's perfectly understandable for you to be a little traumatised or even frightened and apprehensive. I don't frightened is too strong a word, the changes you see in someone becoming enculted by the BKs, in their lifestyle and their relationship to their family, can be disturbing. They no longer appear to be themselves.

I'll quote for you, again, something I remember said of one of the first BKs in the West by his parents ... "The only thing the BKs taught our son to do was lie".

Lie is perhaps too strong a word to use easily but deceive or cleverly manipulative is certain and the likelihood of you being deceived or cleverly manipulatived by your now BK family member, and the likelihood of them being tutored in how to deceive or cleverly manipulative you, is very high; which adds to the tension and uncertainty.

What we can do is translate and clarify what they are saying into plain English, what they are likely being told to do and say, and tell you what the teachings (and history of the cult) actual are.

If you counter them with BK terms and concepts it might unsettle them and make them start to think and question again. Much of BKism achieves it aims through "acceptance by repetition" rather than thinking and questioning. It's more about stopping questions. However, it is likely that they will also be prepared with stock responses about resources we can offer you like saying that we don't understand ... honestly, we do. We understand very well. We just don't accept what the BKs say any more.

Usually the BKs use the term "ghosts" or "evil spirits" to mean the 5 vices (ego, lust, anger etc) and mostly they don't concern themselves at all with spiritualistic matters at all. Some BKs will mix in their own or previous cultural idea but such thoughts are generally considered to be Maya and of no value by the organization.

As I said, I would not worry a single second about any spiritualistic influence, they are a mere distraction. The "possessing" influences you need to worry about are the human ones dressed in white saris; not just her peers or center-in-charges, but if obstacles to her BKism become to great, then she will be given telephone tutoring or even private meetings with senior BKs who have decades of dealing with such problems.

Depending on what level of encultation your family member is at, what they and the teachings will be telling her is that 'they' are her real family and the center or the BK HQ her real home, and that you are nothing more than obstacles, impure shudras or even evil, and are to be "served" by her.

"Attachment", meaning loyalty and sincerely fond feelings, is also portrayed as an evil. Such feelings are to be cut out and replaced with a distant (detached) or theoretical "love".

Can you describe in detail what level of encultation she is at by her daily routine etc? Is she going to daily class, or are they call her with it? Has she stopped eating food you or her mother prepares for her? Is she asking for money to give to them or going out evangelising with them?

It takes two sides to spoil a family. BKs can inspire mistrust towards your worldly family, but your worldly family also develops mistrust towards you if you become a BK, because some part of their image about you becomes challenged. The attachment matter is not complete rubbish. I think if a family is strong it becomes stronger and the weak relationship brakes.

It takes two sides to spoil a family ...

The problem with that suggestion is that as soon as the Brahma Kumaris are involved, there are three, four or more sides involved.

I would say the most typical case is a husband and wife where the wife is attracted to the BKs. In essence, the wife become unfaithful to the life relationship she entered into ... she starts an adulterous affair with the BK god and often one of their leaders who then start to fill her mind full of ideas on how to sabotage the marriage. They are supported by low ranking BKs who add their own yuktis (sneaky methods).

I would say the second most typical case is of a BK child of non-BK parents where the parents have invested their lives in bringing up the child ... and then the childless BKs come along, steal it away and start to fill their head with family or career wrecking ideas.

Oh, and the BKs want the family or husband to keep paying, supporting the BK and even financing them.

The BKs should not mess in other families' business. In their haste to the End of the World, or to conquer it 3 square feet at a time they have made too many moral and ethical shortcuts and encouraged too many breakdowns.

They should not accept a married partner as a student unless their partner accepts and agrees ... knowing full well what it means ... and they should pay families for any children they take ... not demand that families pay them the child's dowry as they currently do ... to compensate for the parents' losses and to support them later in life agreeing to adopt the child ... 'in sickness and in healthy'.

Of course, doing so would require the BKs to be honest in advance which they are. I have no hope of that happening ... 'dishonesty' is the BKs' second name ... the 'Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual Dishonesty' .

The way a child goes to BK can be seen as traditional when a child goes to study in the house of the guru. Yes, it becomes problematic when the child wants to go there on its own will and is not sent there by his parents. If you also see going to the BK for a Kumari like marrying, this love marriage, against the will of the parents can also be the problem sometimes. I think it has been discussed here that it may happen that one choses to go to BK instead of putting up with an arranged marriage.

You are right to see the woman going to BK like being unfaithful, because her husband is supposed to be her guru and god. That's why BK is presented as revolutionary organization where for the woman is also seen as normal to attend a satsang and have a guru as man. The number of mothers is the greatest and it is they are the ones who usually save some money from the family budget to secretly give to the BK. This point also becomes controversial with more and more woman attending jobs and having their own money. It is different when she does not have money on her own. In this case, indeed often, what she can contribute is some family fortune like gold she has received as a gift. The dowry is something considered to accompany the young girl.

Littleo, please remember to refer back to the original topic or headline and keep 'on topic'. You are relatively free to discuss whatever you want but if you want to discuss something new, please start a new topic.

... can be seen ...

What does "can be seen" mean? I am not interested in the many ways thing *could* be seen, I am interested in the way things *are*. You're still speaking in BK terms/analogies/metaphors and about theoretical, probably romanticised scenarios. No, a young child going to the Brahma Kumaris is not the same as going to the local teacher. *

(* I have no idea how many people really have "gurus" these days nor how many ever went to one to study in India, probably only a elite of the same caste. I do have some idea of monastic and 'temple education' in other nations and, in almost every case, at least they taught practical skills from reading and writing right up to crafts and trades. None of them filled young people's heads with ridiculous ideas about the imminent End of the World and to give up everything. Brahma Kumarism is pretty unique in the paucity [small or insufficient quantities or amounts] of what it teaches and utter valuelessness of it.

What the inner circle of the Brahma Kumaris really teach, and just about all they teach, is how to live off other working people and families by spinning a web based on a never ending 'End of the World' scenario. It's a business, or a con trick, as old as any religion.)

When I wrote 'the child of family' it could mean a young adult or even a grown up. In the case of such a child or wife, the modus operandi ("method of operation") of the Brahma Kumaris is the same; they want to distract some or all of the individual's thoughts, labour, wealth and property into "their family".

The Brahma Kumaris are parasites on other families and societies. Parasites which infect their hosts and victims with some kind of psychic virus that make them go a little crazy for a while during which time they exploit them. The BKs produce virtually nothing. They give very little ... only enough to keep up a facade, invite people in or avoid criticism. The exchange between the Brahma Kumaris and the world is almost entire one way, the BKs' way. Since the Kripalani Klan ran out of their own money to afford their indulgence, all they have done is morph in various different ways, that we are discussing elsewhere on this forum, and tap into pre-existing wealth, or habitual and religious money giving activities ... in order to live off it.

The original question was, "what can be done to save a family member?" The sad truth is the answer is often, "not very much except waiting until illness wears off and the individual comes back to normality".

The most important thing to do during the 'illness' ... often the only thing to do ... is not feed the individual's temporary addiction nor the BKs addiction to their time, energy and money and to protect the rest of the family from them.

We never work with how things are. We always see things and present them. The topic is how to save a family member. A family member is seen as drowning. Is he? Not for the BKs. They see him being saved. They see the attemt to save him as destroying him. The way we see things make us act accordingly.

In our quest for objectivity we can see reality if we look through many eyes and many points of view to see the complete picture, but then when we have to choose one specific point of view we have to know we are never objective.

It's actually very easy to be completely or largely objective, e.g. here's an objective statement ... the Brahma Kumaris have deceived generations of young people by re-writing their history and philosophy, and covering up their past, in order to keep them enculted.

Objectively, that is entirely true.

But ... OK then ... by your own argument, whose side are you on? What is your own specific view of the BKWSU? (Please start a separate topic if you care to answer and add your own experience of the BKs and leaving).

The difference with a newcomer to the BKWSU, like this family or even yourself if you have only been in the BKWSU for 5 years, is that after years of observation and study about the Brahma Kumaris (over a period of decades and from perspectives draw from all over the world) we can make fairly reliable predictions where someone like their family member is going to do, go and achieve within the BK movement.

We also have access to much of the information about the BK movement and its activities that the leaders keep hidden.

Low level BKs may well believe they are "saving the soul" of the individual, and this might be one explain why they conspire with them and the leaders against the family, but we can be pretty sure no such thing is happening and in 2, 3, 5 or 10 years the individual will be looking back at a wasted life ... and the start of the Golden Age on earth will still not have happened.

It is not deceiving if one is voluntary accepting false statements. You can say how will someone feel in 10 years and what will happen, but objectivly there is no way to know.

It is not deceiving if one is voluntary accepting false statements.

Deception is deception is deception ... it does not depend on whether the other individual or group accepts false statements or not.

deceive (Verb)

Cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.

You can say how will someone feel in 10 years and what will happen, but objectivly there is no way to know.

I never said I could. I said one can easily make objective statements about things and events which have passed.

Based on years of study, and people's experiences from all over the world including information hidden by the BKWSU, one can make more far informed predictions that a newcomer to the BKWSU cannot.

The BKWSU leaders still tell adherents the world is going to end in two to three years ... to a newcomer that might be shocking or amazing and they might be inspired to give up their life and surrender to the BKs. We can tell them objectively that is exactly what the BKs used to say back in the 1970s or 80s ... indeed, back in the 1930s and 40s ... and that their god spirit has made numerous false predictions, therefore it is probably more sensible to carry on with one's life normally and, at least, "spread one's bets" ... and not "bet everything" on the BKs because they have a bad track record of inaccuracy and false predictions.

If people are told this objective truth, they are in a better position to make a better decision in their life.

* BTW, are you Andre and have come back to haunt us again?

I think no one questions the need of information. You see people are grateful for that. My point was that one has to be careful not to break the family by estranging the people away from the BK member, that is as bad as BK being estranged to his family.