Angry or aggressive responses from BKs

"What we don't appreciate is that they are happier with their choices"

I would disagree with you, moreclearnow, here. That is one thing I was looking for within me and around in the BKs.

If The Knowledge brings the joy and the passion for living another day, I am sure anybody can follow the rules. But neither I felt the joy, nor did I see this in Brahmin family. In fact, what I saw was that most of them were following it like Bhakti only. Also, most of them were there because of some tragic history and it was this lot that will never question and understandably so because their minds are already full of painful memories that questioning something here and finding it otherwise may increase it further. Also, either the fear (Dharmraj or being slaves in the Golden Age) or a royal greed (that is not Maya for them) for palaces in Golden Age was pushing factor for many.

Personally, I feel if you follow any religion or cult with these two virtues, you are wasting your time. The contentment and the decision to follow should come from with in (yes, from your manmat, after all your manmat only, said it's Shiv Baba only, is not it?) and the joy should be the consequence. If that does not flower in you, better try something else. I have friends who have no idea of BK Gyan, and they are far more humble, you can see the life glowing on their faces and they are there to help unconditionally anyone, anytime. If they will be only in Kalyug, I prefer being there with them.

Personally, even when I was there in front of BapDada, I was not feeling anything peaceful or joyful and, you know, I tried all my best to not have any other thought than Baba because this was the moment of lifetime when you are there in front of God but, I am sorry dear, there was nothing I felt.

Now, BKs can easily blame this on me for not having enough Yoga everyday, or whatever, and I can accept that too. But my wife always had good Yoga at Amrit Vela and evening and during daytime too and here she was with me there too, and she also did not receive any good feeling there.

There are many good things in the Gyan that one can take and follow to make you a better person but then there are many that your heart says, thank you but no thank you.

It is untrue that BK adherents are equally treated whether donating or not ... they get preferential treatment in many ways.

Yes, I wanted to pick up on that too. Contrary to what MCN says, there are many cases were big donors are rewarded with front seats at the meeting with Baba in Abu, allowed to get up on stage with BapDada (see also the politics of who gets to be there) and, of course, there are special Bhog messages from Gulzar for the family when such a donor dies.

Meanwhile the cattle pens are full of poor Indians who will only ever get a glimpse of what is going on and a whack of the lathi stick if they step out of line.

MCN has an over-idealistic view of how the BKWSU should be, so what if they can keep coming up with one example here or one example there ... the problem is the core of the BKWSU and what it is about, what it is for and how it is run.

I think many of us had a similarly denial or apologetic view of BKism after we left ... especially those who want to keep the door open to returning or using their facilities and who recommend them to others.

Aggressiveness is rare because the BKs are very controlled, not necessarily peaceful or divine. Much of BKism is about learning not to react and superficial control for their ulterior purpose. Perhaps we ought to look at passive-aggression within the BK system. I heard some of the bhavans (BK single sec dormitories) went through frosty phases although I was never part of them or their meetings. I know some non-senior BKs could be very controlling of others which I, personally, would have not tolerated but others felt dominated by.

Passive-aggressive behavior

Passive-aggressive behavior can manifest itself as learned helplessness (in which an individual has learned to be helpless because proactive behavior is useless), procrastination, hostile jokes, stubbornness, resentment, sullenness, or deliberate/repeated failure to accomplish requested tasks for which one is responsible.

Most frequently it occurs in the workplace where resistance is exhibited by such indirect behaviours as procrastination, forgetfulness, and purposeful inefficiency, especially in reaction to demands by authority figures.

It is untrue that BK adherents are equally treated whether donating or not, how much they donate or by what talents they can offer. Those who give, or have something that's "serviceable" (especially if their talent is in getting others to donate) gain attention, acknowledgement and validation from Seniors; they get invited to "exclusive" meetings or gain access and influence not available to others, or up on stage with BapDada; they get preferential treatment in many ways. True believers and sycophants alike think that moving in such circles proves their spiritual progress and stage.

The next day there'll be a class about humility and personal effort, and that a true yogi is beyond all of that ... this keeps the unwealthy but sincere proles mollified and paying their tithe (literally "tenth"), while the organisational effort, recognition, status, ego massaging is directed to the so-called "serviceable" ones, regardless of anything else.

It's not that I haven't seen any of this. I never believed BKs are perfect or BKWSU is perfect. In simple terms, they are a group of effort makers towards a common goal wherein the journey involves deep focus on understanding the self, control over mind, purification/self-transformation through soul consciousness and connection with the divine. There are enabling tools and systems to help you, but they are just details. There are a variety of people on the path with different individual needs and aspirations. Everyone has a starting point and end point in this journey with several milestones.

There are many who aren't much visible on the stage, not mentioned in classes and so on ... but you get to see many of such close to being true yogis. The people who seem happier when praised or when given preferential treatment are also the ones who get distressed when opposite happens, while the true Yogi is one who is unaffected by praise or defamation to the extent that they don't have the desire of attracting fame. Many of the poor Indians that ex-l refers fall into this category. Their focus is on their effort and love of God. What others say about them is immaterial and the experiences they have had are in no way inferior to those who got to the stage.

If that does not flower in you, better try something else. I have friends who have no idea of BK Gyan, and they are far more humble, you can see the life glowing on their faces and they are there to help unconditionally anyone, anytime. If they will be only in Kalyug, I prefer being there with them.

PP mentioned about the example of the humility class, you tell me what else theory can achieve? Teachings can continue to remind someone of it and provide tools to bring in the change but only way to put this in practice is to listen, act, change and test for which you can not deny that BKs are not trying. Many may be failing in these tests but failure is also a stepping stone. Listening to a class doesn't mean all BKs become humble the other day. Some have it naturally, some are way ahead and some are worse than normal people outside who will show more humility. Some are only there because they like the community or vibrations and don't really make much effort to change.

When on the journey, you try to inculcate positivity & you change your sanskars. How do you test if the change is real? There comes an imperfect BK or senior to tease you (literally "test" you), you observe your reactions and see if the sanskar change worked? If not, you go back and start over again. You may as well say that what is the difference between the outside world and BK world then if same situations test you. However, If these tests do not come, you will never be sure if the change is real or an illusion. And the amount of time BKs spend within the BK community is significant, so they will not get to test all the change in the outside world!

If, in this process, you are only looking at the imperfections of other BKs/Seniors/organization and you wanted some more perfect environment for your journey, then that means you have a different journey and may be you are way ahead of the level BKs have reached till now. Murlis always mentioned many Mahavirs (leaders/Seniors) will fall on the journey.

The point I am trying to make is that during the Honeymoon Period, some BKs start believing that they are in an ideal angelic world and nothing can go wrong here. That itself is a wrong notion as this is confusing the destination with the journey. Some BKs progress very well in the journey demonstrating real change while many others, including Seniors, are trapped by their old behaviours for years.

Well, that's a fairly reasonable assessment and one that would be acceptable to the BKWSU as it does not bring into question the validity or invalidity of what they believe their raison d'être (reason for existence) is.

If one believes in an overall, fairly traditional and encompassing spiritual theory of life ... it could still fit. One could even call it a fairly classical enlightened Hindu, or perhaps Theosophical view. That's hard to write as there are so many schools of Hinduism and I should really be more specific, but I think you know what I mean ... the concept that we are all on 'the' spiritual path, that all path leads to the same goal, and everyone has their own one. It exists within Western spiritual traditions too.

Earlier you said that you did not believe in the 5,000 Year Cycle, so what is your overall world view then? Which bits of BK are right and where does Lekhraj Kirpalani and their god spirit fit in? Do you believe their god spirit is God and as they explain it?

I consider that there are dangers and pitfalls in presenting this theory as an apology for BKism.

Firstly, it excuses abuse which one might even go as far as to say has become habitual, ingrained and institutional.

Secondly, it turns individuals' suffering or victimhood into their responsibility, e.g. if one is experience abuse or even just irritation from another individual rather than accept it, turn it inwards, accept responsibility, tolerate and become immune to it ... perhaps the lesson is just to stop the other from doing what is wrong, to stand up for your rights etc.

Thirdly, there is the seductive element whereby you might consider your overall, all encompassing theory is superior ( as it excludes the liability of the dinosaurs, 5,000 years et al), and go along with BKism seeing them as being lower down on The Ladder but still worthy ... but rest assured at the core of BKism is an immovable and unchangeable core in which any alternative theories, any personal ideas, or any alternative master's ideas are plain wrong. It's Baba and they're going to heaven and the word is going to be destroyed and that's that.

You can make BKism into an almost perfect facsimile of your perfect spiritual path ... but it's not. It does not quite fit, so what it ... a step on the way or a diversion, a distraction, an analogue to true spirituality?

analogue

1. Something that bears an analogy to something else.
2. A structure that is similar in function to another kind but of dissimilar origins.
3. A structure which is derivative of another that often differs from it by a small degree.

Personally, I don't know if BapDada exists or it is just Gulzar in a daze. I can accept Lekhraj Kirpalani had a lot of worldly experience and if it is possible to come back from the dead, I am sure he could act as a guide to many up to his level of awareness ... according to that model. But I don't see any evidence that the inner circle or elite who have the reins of the organization are in the same mode of thinking as you. I cannot see them as "enlightened masters" using an imperfect device in order to achieve some better end.

For me, the evidence says are misleading and exploiting.

So, apology aside, what is your overall spiritual world view into which you are fitting the BK experience?

In simple terms, they are a group of effort makers towards a common goal wherein the journey involves deep focus on understanding the self, control over mind, purification/self-transformation through soul consciousness and connection with the divine. There are enabling tools and systems to help you, but they are just details.

OK - what you are seeing are the universals, the common human spiritual impulse and ignoring (your 'just details") that which distinguishes the BKs from other defined paths. You are looking at what is "despite" - rather than the "because of" - the distinguishing teachings of BKs.

That is, when sincere people get together as you say above, wonderful things can happen, no need for the BKs, that'll happen anyway when good people do something. The sincerity, the effort to a common goal, the deep focus etc are not unique to BKs.

My position is that what distinguishes the BKs (and gives them their 'reason' to exist as a separate entity) is by their own definitions, far from universal, and if examined closely, is what is dangerous about them, not just in terms of potential danger, but actual harm, seen in the massive diversion of energy, talent, wealth and so many lives.

I am not talking about the ecumenical feel-good of personal endeavour, you can feel good after putting effort into digging a hole in your garden, or organising a community assistance group.

I am talking about the entrapping "Gyan' which is a (psychologically) closed system contract, a Catch-22 with no out for those who believe it, which leads some to become other than what they could be (forsaking relationships, children, studies, family, etc or life itself), the creation of dependency on BK approved behaviours for self-esteem, the forced drip-feeding of elitism ("pure caste system"), and all that energy and money going to BK proselytising to further build the "spiritual" pyramid.

That is, when sincere people get together as you say above, wonderful things can happen, no need for the BKs, that'll happen anyway when good people do something. The sincerity, the effort to a common goal, the deep focus etc are not unique to BKs.

You can say that about any such group. Yes, but for a bunch of those sincere people, BKs is that group! And BKism is not like a gardening hobby PP - in fact, that is one of the key distinguishing factors one has to keep in mind. BKism is not a hobby or a part-time interest. It's a very difficult path as it would seem for anyone looking at the practice required. It's not just a slight adaptation of lifestyle like gardening to feel good. And the universal principles I am talking about in relation to BKs may not be unique, but to me the group making sincere effort to implement those principles in practical life is unique.

So, apology aside, what is your overall spiritual world view into which you are fitting the BK experience?

My spiritual world view aligns with the basic principles -most of then universal and their correlation to BK practices

- Understanding the Self === Soul consciousness
- Understanding God === Knowledge of the incorporeal, the light.
- Having connection with God === Meditation
- Bringing change === sanskars transformation (the purusharth)
- Practising detachment === Detached yet loving
- Understanding the value of present === Live today as if you will die tomorrow
- Understanding Karma === Simple law of action/reaction
- Understanding Cycle === Time being cyclic gives hope

At a fundamental level, I acknowledge that spirituality is not difficult to understand and it's universal, but is difficult to practice in current times. And I admire any group of sincere effort makers who take on such a journey rather than discarding the whole bunch because of some imperfect Seniors.

Perform all thy actions with mind concentrated on the Divine, renouncing attachment and looking upon success and failure with an equal eye. Spirituality implies equanimity

On this path effort never goes to waste, and there is no failure. Even a little effort toward spiritual awareness will protect you from the greatest fear.

- From Bhagwad Gita

BKism is not like a gardening hobby PP

I think that is a little careless and condescending. You could have chosen an equivalent social movement such as the anti-apartheid movement, women's rights, anti-slavery, any number of religious reform movements, Gandhi's and so on.

Pink Panther makes a good point. People getting together feels good. Without removing the 'people getting together part' we cannot separate and appreciate any mystical 'added extra benefit' of BKism, e.g. it might turn out that 95% of BKism is just the feel good factor of nice people getting together and being nice.

My spiritual world view aligns with the basic principles -most of then universal and their correlation to BK practices

OK, we have a problem here. You are being deliberately and unnecessarily vague here.

Self === fine. Being a soul is not unique to BK, claiming their experience is might be.
God === problem. You're use the same vague words the BKs use in pubic, "the incorporeal", "the light".

Let's be specific. Is the BKs' Shiva Baba God ... have the BKs conceived of God correctly? Or do you have a modified version of their concept which includes it?
- Connection with God === See above. If Shiva Baba is not God, who or what are your connecting to?
- Cycle giving hope === Hope, presumably, as long as one is not a single-birth, fly-like Shudra for eternity; nor a Christian/Moslem who is making effort to go to heaven; nor a Sanyasi or Buddhist who has spent their 'lives' trying to attain moskha and now it is all a waste of time?

The big question is regarding 5,000 years. You said you did not believe in it, so what do you believe?

At a fundamental level, I acknowledge that spirituality is not difficult to understand and it's universal, but is difficult to practice in current times.

That view really comes from Vedanta. I am note sure how true it is. Life is certainly a lot, lot easier these days and BKism depends on many of the improvements.

And I admire any group of sincere effort makers who take on such a journey rather than discarding the whole bunch because of some imperfect Seniors.

But where are they being leaded by those obviously imperfect leaders?

Is it 'the spiritual journey' spoken of in mystic circles, or are they being sorely misled?

I can understand wishing to defend the sincerity of most BK followers. I would agree with that. The question is whether they are being led sincerely ... either from this world, or another world.

BKism is not like a gardening hobby

I think that is a little careless and condescending. You could have chosen an equivalent social movement such as the anti-apartheid movement, women's rights, anti-slavery, any number of religious reform movements, Gandhi's and so on.

Pink Panther makes a good point.

You are a master of twisting simple statements and make them appear as condescending. I am not. I am just calling spade a spade. PP, of course, makes good points but you are making it appear more complicated than it is and may I request you not to invervene in each and every comment made by everyone on this forum? This just makes any discussion very difficult. Why do you have to react to everything on this forum? If PP thinks it is condescending towards him, I will have no problem in making amend - I referred to his example of gardening. BKism is not a hobby that's what it means. That's also advice to anyone taking on a BK path, don't take it up as a hobby; it's much more than that.

You also responded to me. I responded to you.

Please answer the questions I asked and allow the discussion to move on. I have asked you to clarify your degree of belief in the BK god, Cycle etc ... but you have ignored it several times.

If PP thinks it is condescending towards him, I will have no problem in making amend - I referred to his example of gardening.

I thought "condescending" meant "a greek parachutist".

No, not feeling it condescending but rather irritating - that you conflated one example, of good people coming together, with a different example about personal effort, which you also raised.

From what I read, where you agree with BKs parallels where BKs agree with broader vedanta and Gita etc.

If you looked at what distinguishes, delineates BKs from the broader Hindu beliefs, I think you'll find much of that is the parts of BKs that you are happy to "ignore". This means you really are, in their eyes, a "Bhagat soul".

If certain spiritual journey (BK for example), is not going to be as pleasant as gardening, or even more ... why taking it in the first place ...!?

Why should spiritual path be considered "synonymous" to suffering and hard labour ...!?

Perhaps derogatory might have been a better word. "You cannot compare apples with oranges" ... they are two different fruits. Therefore you cannot compare BKism with an activity such as gardening.

MCN, you should not feel threatened about exposing your experimental faith in the god of the BKs, perhaps your faith is not clear in your mind and you yourself are questioning. You are not being nor will be judged or discriminated against just because of that. What will mark you down is not being open and easily honest about it, and talking to us if we were stupid and did not know the BKs and BKism very well.

Correct me if I am wrong but BKism is not really something one can part believe in, is it? BKism is Destruction and 5000 Year Cycles regardless of what you think. There is no questioning that. Therefore, I am interested how someone can still believe that the BK god is the God of all religions and invest their faith and mind in it ... but at the same time also think that god is wrong.

The BKs are "nice" or "religious" just for the sake of it ... they are desperately preparing for Destruction. All those gardens are going to be destroyed.

Angry and aggressive responses from BKs sounds as if it is some extinct species, as if it is something strange, as if we are not living in a world where it has become a norm. Yes, BKs may have to have overcome that but, obviously, they have not ... but they try. Wherever there is anger there is lust also. When lust is not fulfilled anger comes.

No one has promised us the world will be perfect, why would we expect this. I think if one has illusions about what BKs have to be and feels disapointed, he is a dreamer. There are no other BKs, maybe on paper, but, in person, they are this, impure, angry, greedy, lustful, just like anyone else. One does not have to be perfect to criticize, there would be no criticism in the world, but to set standards and expect others to meet that is indeed romantic. Yes, if God sets some standards, that is fine, but BKs tell him also ... we are not ready yet.

Dany,

A very relevant and good question. If you post it as a new topic of discussion, it may be an interesting one.

Spiritual paths or the life of an ascetic is difficult to the outsiders because they judge it against the normal comforts and pleasures of life which is forsaken in such a path, however, for the spiritual traveller, it is the journey towards end of suffering, and for them that gives them much more satisfaction. There are many school of thoughts on this and some of them believe that often it is the intense suffering of self or others attached to the self that pushes people towards "vairagya" (disinterest) and spiritual pursuit as part of evolution of human consciousness.

Sure, but we're not talking about the spiritual path or the life of an ascetic. We're talking about Brahma Kumarism which is something different.

You cannot talk about some other traditions, and then apply it to the BKs. There's no evidence yet BKism leads anywhere, except to bankruptcy to those who finance it, and property and wealth for those who life off it.

But, please don't allow me to distract ... we were talking about your faith MCN and whether you believed the god spirit of the BKs was the God of all religions, how your conceptions and beliefs different and how you dealt with the 5,000 year issue.

Thank you.